Crazy Monkey Boxing + Muay Thai?

JayElliott

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I'm a tall guy with built legs (not short, but not long either) and a natural ability for power kicking. I've been training off and on with a boxing trainer (no knowledge of MMA, however) whose focus is the peek-a-boo, deep head movement (by deep, I mean when he bobs/weaves, he has me step to the outside of the guy's shoulder). Also got me pretty low in my stance, which I find doesn't exactly help my kicking.

I've seen some Crazy Monkey material, and greatly prefer King's approach to the method...my question here is, how well do you all think it would fit or mesh with Muay Thai kicks, knees, and elbows?
 
It would fit perfectly. Crazy monkey style works very well with thai kicking.

You should definetly persue it in a gym nearby or experiment with the Crazy Monkey concepts with your trainer.
 
what the heck is crazy monkey? some form of kung fu?
 
what the heck is crazy monkey? some form of kung fu?

It's a style of boxing that works well for mma or street fighting and it's characturised by a head low and elbows high defensive posture (although there's a bit more to it than that), Rampage is the best example I can think of.
IMO it's great combined with good kicks and knees
Here's some vids to check out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njPgVLPTWZk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrewiYRi48o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7w2IUJ7jR8
 
I think I remember Tito Ortiz using this style in one of his fights. My question is: doesn't keeping your hands that high on your head leave your body vulnerable for strikes and leave you more open for a takedown?
 
If you keep what Rodney calls a "tight economical structure" using his "hunchback stance"...it takes care of the body pretty nicely...
 
The most common misconception about the CM method is that when people see the "monkey" stance they think that the practicioners stand like that ALL THE TIME, from the opening bell. That is very far from the truth and one of the things Rodney King stresses at the beginning. You can use any variety of boxing stances while on the outside and shift to the CM defensive posture only when the punches come in.

It's very small but this gif shows exactly how CM should be used. Notice how Rampage goes to that hand posture as soon as the fists are inbound.
silvavjackson.gif


Rodney "Chico" King developed, or more accurately adapted this method of boxing defense because he felt that the dropout rate in his striking classes were very high compared to his grappling classes. He saw that he could teach just about everyone who walked through the door, big or small, strong or weak BJJ but of all of those who started out boxing or kickboxing very few stuck with it to reach a competent level of skill. Before he incorporated grappling into his curriculum he had always just taken it as a given that the majority of people trying their hands at combat sports would wash out. After looking at the situation critically he came to the conclusion that traditional methods of teaching striking arts were very much attribute-based - if you didn't have a fair chin, natural agressiveness enough speed and hand-eye coordination, and a willingness to get hit in sparring it would be very hard for you to make any real progress at a beginner. On the other hand BJJ was technique-based and thus didn't demand as much natural inclination for the pursuit.

The CM posture is for those peeps that want to learn how to strike but don't have the natural attributes to bob and weave or beat people to the punch. With a good blocking method to fall back on people gain confidence that they can spar without getting hit in the face too much or wobble. Some guys continue to use even after they become competent, but you can also see the method as a sort of "training wheels" - as you gain skills and confidence and get used to exchanging strikes you can transition into more diverse ways of not getting hit and counterstriking.

That's basically why Rodney developed his version of this stance. Please note that he has never tried to take credit for inventing it out of thin air, variations of this type of defense have been around in boxing (and probably Muay Thai too) for a long time under a variety of names. Some people refer to it as The Wall, others just see it as a modified version of the peekaboo defense. Rodney just adapted it to MMA and self-defense.
 
The most common misconception about the CM method is that when people see the "monkey" stance they think that the practicioners stand like that ALL THE TIME, from the opening bell. That is very far from the truth and one of the things Rodney King stresses at the beginning. You can use any variety of boxing stances while on the outside and shift to the CM defensive posture only when the punches come in.

It's very small but this gif shows exactly how CM should be used. Notice how Rampage goes to that hand posture as soon as the fists are inbound.
silvavjackson.gif


Rodney "Chico" King developed, or more accurately adapted this method of boxing defense because he felt that the dropout rate in his striking classes were very high compared to his grappling classes. He saw that he could teach just about everyone who walked through the door, big or small, strong or weak BJJ but of all of those who started out boxing or kickboxing very few stuck with it to reach a competent level of skill. Before he incorporated grappling into his curriculum he had always just taken it as a given that the majority of people trying their hands at combat sports would wash out. After looking at the situation critically he came to the conclusion that traditional methods of teaching striking arts were very much attribute-based - if you didn't have a fair chin, natural agressiveness enough speed and hand-eye coordination, and a willingness to get hit in sparring it would be very hard for you to make any real progress at a beginner. On the other hand BJJ was technique-based and thus didn't demand as much natural inclination for the pursuit.

The CM posture is for those peeps that want to learn how to strike but don't have the natural attributes to bob and weave or beat people to the punch. With a good blocking method to fall back on people gain confidence that they can spar without getting hit in the face too much or wobble. Some guys continue to use even after they become competent, but you can also see the method as a sort of "training wheels" - as you gain skills and confidence and get used to exchanging strikes you can transition into more diverse ways of not getting hit and counterstriking.

That's basically why Rodney developed his version of this stance. Please note that he has never tried to take credit for inventing it out of thin air, variations of this type of defense have been around in boxing (and probably Muay Thai too) for a long time under a variety of names. Some people refer to it as The Wall, others just see it as a modified version of the peekaboo defense. Rodney just adapted it to MMA and self-defense.


Great post, man. Have you been to any of his seminars?
 
Great post, man. Have you been to any of his seminars?

Nah, but Matt Thornton ran through the basics of CM along with the rationale behind it at a seminar I went to in 2004. CM is the first thing he teaches to any grappler that is thinking about transitioning to MMA, because it's helps tremendously in closing the distance and getting the clinch.
 
Awesome...I'd love to have a seminar with both of them (Matt and Rodney...even though I know they've parted ways).
 
War Crazy Monkey! and elbow blocks in general.
 
muay boran looks a lot like crazy monkey, an active system of blocking is needed for non gloved combat. in the early 1900's bareknuckled, no rules, muay boran was banned and gloves and rings were used. With gloves you get away with static blocking a lot more, so the crazy monkey style defensive techniques of muay thai were no longer used
 
CM and Muay Thai blend together really really well. If you have a look at old school thai boxers, such as Apidej at Fairtex (who has certified Rodney to teach MT), they use a very similar hunchback stance to the Crazy Monkey Defense Programme.

One of the CM trainers, Adam Kayoom from Malaysia, is blending CM and thai at title level competition in Thailand on a regular basis.

There are many aspects to CM, the core idea is that it allows people to develop a high level of sparring game while working within their comfort zone. Too many training methods over-emphasise hitting people from a technical perspective, but then rely on attributes to defend. Even simple moves - such as bobbing & weaving, slipping etc need timing. Many people can walk in the door of a gym and be able to swing a punch - virtually no one has the ability to read, time and dodge a shot thrown back when they start training.

So most people's early training is dogged by black eyes, broken noses, dented confidence and (commonly) over-aggression just to keep people away until your defence catches up to your offence. The downside to all of this is that most people find sparring to be such a negative experience - it's not fun having people smash you in the face if you can't stop it - that they quit training before they really develop any skill level.

The CM as a structure works to prevent this happening from a physical standpoint but the coaching method and training environment, which are more important, are designed to allow people to develop the confidence to enjoy their training and get good in a way that allows them to build their game under pressure without having to deal with someone just teeing off on them.

The structure itself is more than just the hand position (there are so many experts on CM out there who have never trained it that this is a myth that doesn't seem to go away). :)

The hunchback stance is more important than the hand position, without a solid structure to attach your guard to in the first place you are going to get rocked even if you get your hands/arms/gloves in the way of the shot. The biggest flaws you can spot in most people's structure are:
  1. lack of balance
  2. a weak neck
  3. unlocked core
Next time you have a sparring session at your gym, watch out for these. People backing out with their chins up, looking over their gloves without locking their necks solid, bending at the waist, standing tall, back foot skipping or sliding or lifting off the ground when punches are thrown.

Arizona based CM Pro Trainer, Cecil Burch summed these mistakes up really well in a recent post.

Read "What's wrong with your CM?"

All of those flaws are a direct consequence of breaking down structure - most people will solve the problem by throwing their hands harder, which leads to no control, worse structure and more people getting injured. By working to lock down your structure, from the feet up you can begin to fix a lot of these problems.

Solid base

I emphasise how you use your feet alot. I wrote a blog post awhile ago on what I call the plaster cast.

Read "The 'Cast"

By getting people to stabilise their contact with the floor they are better able to use the right muscles for everything else.

Locking down the core

The next step is to lock the core down - imaging trying to sit your ribcage down into your pelvis.

This is the biggest single part of CM for dealing with body shots (everytime I read something saying that CM doesn't deal with body shots I know the author hasn't trained it with a proper CM coach). By locking your core down you switch your core muscles from thin and stretched to compressed and thick. They make armour. Add to that a simple level change when someone throws a body shot and you can ride the shot without having to take your hands off your head. Dropping your hands to cover a body shot is madness, you get knocked out when people double up.

It's such a small move but makes a huge difference - most people get caught with body shots when they are standing too tall, leaning forward or have let someone get in underneath them. All of these can be addressed with a little work on structure.

Setting your neck

The third major aspect is your neck. You need to lift your traps as high as you can to create a cradle for your head, then pull your head down into it. As Rodney describes this 'the 300lb Samoan' approach. I imagine this like having a coathook on the back of your head and some pulling your hoodie up and hanging it on the coat hook. By locking your neck down you limit rotation and 'snap' into your neck. Anything hitting your head won't move it and the energy will be chanelled down into your body. Because your core is solid, it will channel into your legs and because your legs are stable it will transfer into the floor. Woo hoo. :)

Once this structure is locked down then you can get the most out of the hand movement and guard. But only once it has a solid structure to attach to. Again, a common misconception is that CM is either like Peek-a-boo (which is predominantly about head motion) or shelling (which is about getting an immobile barrier in front of your head).

Neither of these is accurate, the hand motion in CM is about constant movement to deflect shots past your head and send any absorbed energy down into your structure (and to the floor). This allows you to stay in the pocket without getting bounced back and play your game in safety and confidence.

cm_angles_neg.gif


So we're back where we started, confidence. CM is about training in a live environment without the mentality of smashing people and going hard to cover up flaws in your game (or worse flaws in your attitude). By giving people a structure that the more you tighten it the better it works then you can get people sparring safely very, very quickly. The key is safely. Sparring offers unique challenges, and should be something that everyone can benefit from. What CM helps you do is build a really productive training environment where everyone can build their standup game, whether for fun, fitness or competition.

If you want to find out more about CM from the horses mouth go and check out the Crazy Monkey Defense Programme website. Rodney King is teaching seminars in the US (Bellflower, CA) and UK (Manchester, England) in May this year. If you are interested in seeing how CM could help you then details are on the CM site.

Happy training.

If anyone has any questions then drop me a message.
 
Excellent post, revolutiongym. I've always loved the CM defense and find myself using it out of instinct sometimes if I'm getting fluried on.

I'm going to work some of these tips in and see if I can't get my defensive game up to snuff.
 
CM and Muay Thai blend together really really well. If you have a look at old school thai boxers, such as Apidej at Fairtex (who has certified Rodney to teach MT), they use a very similar hunchback stance to the Crazy Monkey Defense Programme.

One of the CM trainers, Adam Kayoom from Malaysia, is blending CM and thai at title level competition in Thailand on a regular basis.

There are many aspects to CM, the core idea is that it allows people to develop a high level of sparring game while working within their comfort zone. Too many training methods over-emphasise hitting people from a technical perspective, but then rely on attributes to defend. Even simple moves - such as bobbing & weaving, slipping etc need timing. Many people can walk in the door of a gym and be able to swing a punch - virtually no one has the ability to read, time and dodge a shot thrown back when they start training.

So most people's early training is dogged by black eyes, broken noses, dented confidence and (commonly) over-aggression just to keep people away until your defence catches up to your offence. The downside to all of this is that most people find sparring to be such a negative experience - it's not fun having people smash you in the face if you can't stop it - that they quit training before they really develop any skill level.

The CM as a structure works to prevent this happening from a physical standpoint but the coaching method and training environment, which are more important, are designed to allow people to develop the confidence to enjoy their training and get good in a way that allows them to build their game under pressure without having to deal with someone just teeing off on them.

The structure itself is more than just the hand position (there are so many experts on CM out there who have never trained it that this is a myth that doesn't seem to go away). :)

The hunchback stance is more important than the hand position, without a solid structure to attach your guard to in the first place you are going to get rocked even if you get your hands/arms/gloves in the way of the shot. The biggest flaws you can spot in most people's structure are:
  1. lack of balance
  2. a weak neck
  3. unlocked core
Next time you have a sparring session at your gym, watch out for these. People backing out with their chins up, looking over their gloves without locking their necks solid, bending at the waist, standing tall, back foot skipping or sliding or lifting off the ground when punches are thrown.

Arizona based CM Pro Trainer, Cecil Burch summed these mistakes up really well in a recent post.

Read "What's wrong with your CM?"

All of those flaws are a direct consequence of breaking down structure - most people will solve the problem by throwing their hands harder, which leads to no control, worse structure and more people getting injured. By working to lock down your structure, from the feet up you can begin to fix a lot of these problems.

Solid base

I emphasise how you use your feet alot. I wrote a blog post awhile ago on what I call the plaster cast.

Read "The 'Cast"

By getting people to stabilise their contact with the floor they are better able to use the right muscles for everything else.

Locking down the core

The next step is to lock the core down - imaging trying to sit your ribcage down into your pelvis.

This is the biggest single part of CM for dealing with body shots (everytime I read something saying that CM doesn't deal with body shots I know the author hasn't trained it with a proper CM coach). By locking your core down you switch your core muscles from thin and stretched to compressed and thick. They make armour. Add to that a simple level change when someone throws a body shot and you can ride the shot without having to take your hands off your head. Dropping your hands to cover a body shot is madness, you get knocked out when people double up.

It's such a small move but makes a huge difference - most people get caught with body shots when they are standing too tall, leaning forward or have let someone get in underneath them. All of these can be addressed with a little work on structure.

Setting your neck

The third major aspect is your neck. You need to lift your traps as high as you can to create a cradle for your head, then pull your head down into it. As Rodney describes this 'the 300lb Samoan' approach. I imagine this like having a coathook on the back of your head and some pulling your hoodie up and hanging it on the coat hook. By locking your neck down you limit rotation and 'snap' into your neck. Anything hitting your head won't move it and the energy will be chanelled down into your body. Because your core is solid, it will channel into your legs and because your legs are stable it will transfer into the floor. Woo hoo. :)

Once this structure is locked down then you can get the most out of the hand movement and guard. But only once it has a solid structure to attach to. Again, a common misconception is that CM is either like Peek-a-boo (which is predominantly about head motion) or shelling (which is about getting an immobile barrier in front of your head).

Neither of these is accurate, the hand motion in CM is about constant movement to deflect shots past your head and send any absorbed energy down into your structure (and to the floor). This allows you to stay in the pocket without getting bounced back and play your game in safety and confidence.

cm_angles_neg.gif


So we're back where we started, confidence. CM is about training in a live environment without the mentality of smashing people and going hard to cover up flaws in your game (or worse flaws in your attitude). By giving people a structure that the more you tighten it the better it works then you can get people sparring safely very, very quickly. The key is safely. Sparring offers unique challenges, and should be something that everyone can benefit from. What CM helps you do is build a really productive training environment where everyone can build their standup game, whether for fun, fitness or competition.

If you want to find out more about CM from the horses mouth go and check out the Crazy Monkey Defense Programme website. Rodney King is teaching seminars in the US (Bellflower, CA) and UK (Manchester, England) in May this year. If you are interested in seeing how CM could help you then details are on the CM site.

Happy training.

If anyone has any questions then drop me a message.

Like whoa...I assume you're a certified CMD instructor, eh? This was an amazing explanation...
 
Nice post rev.

I interested to mix some CM with my MT when my fundamentals are already solid. But I don't think someone even has an idea what CM is in my area. :(
 
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