Craig Jones Launches $1mill. Grappling Comp to Sh*t on ADCC

[seatea]

Of course this is nitpicking. I am wildly in favor of the tournament, but I just feel bad for the upcoming injuries I think are inevitable under the given circumstances.

I would argue that there are people whose ego simply won't allow them to submit regardless of price money. But those individuals are not the majority even at the highest level of submission grappling and from my point those people are already a lost cause. These people will get injured no matter what when they end up losing. For this part of the competitors the money may very well be of little importance in this context. For the rest of competitors, the ones who do tap, I would argue the price money presents a very strong motive to sacrifice their body.

I'm either not well informed on this or I chose poor phrasing, but when I say break the opponents leg, I'm speaking of the more common leg injuries like torn meniscuses, ACLs, MCLs or ankle ligaments and not literal bone fractures.
There are ways to break bones for sure, but due to lesser resistance, the common attacks don't really result in broken bones much, do they?

I wasn't aware of a rule that asks referees to stop a match when injuries occur. If you told me that is the case for fractures, I'm inclined to believe you, but in case of ligament tears, I don't think that would make a ton of sense. Some tears can be loud, but joints make popping sounds all the time. I don't think it would be reasonable for a ref to stop the match when he thinks someone's got injured. Near impossible to tell with any level of certainty.
Rulesets vary and I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the ADCC rules. In fact I'm only assuming this based on other events I've seen where people definitely got injured, but didn't tap and the match just went on. If there is a rule that says get injured and you're out fair enough.

Yes, money is an extra incentive to not tap, but I don't think it will make any measurable difference to the number of injuries due to not tapping that we see in other BJJ/sub-grappling competitions. As for sacrificing their bodies, any high-level combat sports competitor does that already, even if they do take a sensible approach to tapping.

As for ligament tears, yes, some people can fight through them, both in the short and long term. However, I would say that if you tear your opponent's ligaments due to them not tapping, your chances of winning the match have increased massively. Yes, some people have fought through them to get the win but I'm willing to bet that for every instance of that happening there are a dozen or more where the injury results in a loss, not necessarily by ref stoppage either, just simply not being able to fight at 100%

BJJ rule sets have gotten so much more difficult to follow since Metamoris was created and spawned fuck knows how many imitators. Back in the day it was just ADCC and IBJJF. But I've never encountered one written by someone with more than 5 brain cells that would let a match continue when the ref--rightly or wrongly--decides that a competitor is too hurt to continue. You could use my own mention of the Jacare/Roger fight as evidence against this, but I'd argue that since the rules had no provision to punish stalling/negative play the writers of those rules might not have met the 5 brain cell threshold.

 

[Smato_rules]

Yes, money is an extra incentive to not tap, but I don't think it will make any measurable difference to the number of injuries due to not tapping that we see in other BJJ/sub-grappling competitions. As for sacrificing their bodies, any high-level combat sports competitor does that already, even if they do take a sensible approach to tapping.

As for ligament tears, yes, some people can fight through them, both in the short and long term. However, I would say that if you tear your opponent's ligaments due to them not tapping, your chances of winning the match have increased massively. Yes, some people have fought through them to get the win but I'm willing to bet that for every instance of that happening there are a dozen or more where the injury results in a loss, not necessarily by ref stoppage either, just simply not being able to fight at 100%

BJJ rule sets have gotten so much more difficult to follow since Metamoris was created and spawned fuck knows how many imitators. Back in the day it was just ADCC and IBJJF. But I've never encountered one written by someone with more than 5 brain cells that would let a match continue when the ref--rightly or wrongly--decides that a competitor is too hurt to continue. You could use my own mention of the Jacare/Roger fight as evidence against this, but I'd argue that since the rules had no provision to punish stalling/negative play the writers of those rules might not have met the 5 brain cell threshold.

Same deal with mma, although they usually make higher purses anyways. But a show/win prize is the same deal, think about how much money mcgreggor got lost talking to habibi

 

[yetanother]

Craig was actually thinking that guys won't tap with a million on the line. Was thinking of adding a rule that being in the sub stops the time running out of stopping the round. If you get stuck in the sub you won't be able to endure till the round ends but they will break it till you get ruined.

 

[kintana]

Why not ? Tickets, sponsors, advertising not blocked behind the Flo grappling paywall.

It's still possible to make some sort of money.

Sponsors hard to sell because so far we do not know ticket sales or viewership figures.

I do think they will make money but year 1 I do think they will make a loss. Who knows what is next

 

[yetanother]

but I'd argue that since the rules had no provision to punish stalling/negative play the writers of those rules might not have met the 5 brain cell threshold.

The ref was afraid to DQ Jacare as the audience was wild.
The IBJJF rule team has 5 extra chromosomes together with them keep a lot of rules unwritten and it being to hard for them to bother with writing down the legality of things like estima locks, aoki lock and the underhook dlr stuff Tainan got DQ'ed for.

 

[Foppa21]

Craig is getting huge amounts of publicity out of this.

Plus point for Craig is he's been able to monetise very well. No idea what would happen if this went south though. Probably the biggest leap of faith we've seen out of him

 

[Foppa21]

Yes, money is an extra incentive to not tap, but I don't think it will make any measurable difference to the number of injuries due to not tapping that we see in other BJJ/sub-grappling competitions. As for sacrificing their bodies, any high-level combat sports competitor does that already, even if they do take a sensible approach to tapping.

As for ligament tears, yes, some people can fight through them, both in the short and long term. However, I would say that if you tear your opponent's ligaments due to them not tapping, your chances of winning the match have increased massively. Yes, some people have fought through them to get the win but I'm willing to bet that for every instance of that happening there are a dozen or more where the injury results in a loss, not necessarily by ref stoppage either, just simply not being able to fight at 100%

BJJ rule sets have gotten so much more difficult to follow since Metamoris was created and spawned fuck knows how many imitators. Back in the day it was just ADCC and IBJJF. But I've never encountered one written by someone with more than 5 brain cells that would let a match continue when the ref--rightly or wrongly--decides that a competitor is too hurt to continue. You could use my own mention of the Jacare/Roger fight as evidence against this, but I'd argue that since the rules had no provision to punish stalling/negative play the writers of those rules might not have met the 5 brain cell threshold.

I second this. Forget about a $1mil prize, I've seen and heard of gnarly injuries for people competing for a $5 medal as local district champion

 

[yetanother]

I second this. Forget about a $1mil prize, I've seen and heard of gnarly injuries for people competing for a $5 medal as local district champion

But if the price is $1 mil and you are in the final winning and you are 45 seconds from winning getting attacked in a sub there is a huge incentive not to tap.

 

[Banana Tree's Nemesis]

I second this. Forget about a $1mil prize, I've seen and heard of gnarly injuries for people competing for a $5 medal as local district champion

In the sense of the argument this is a logical fallacy of composition and division.
What do these people matter? They only make up a portion of competitors. Most match stoppages are due to taps. That is a fact. Even in tournaments. The majority of competitors tap when in serious trouble. At all levels.

A dislocated elbow might be easy to see, but a broken foot or a torn MCL are virtually impossible to identify with certainty. Under a ruleset where pulling guard is not penalized and a milli is on the line, who wouldn't let their legs get ripped apart. Competing for a million dollars I'd think it's rather easy to breath through a dislocated ankle and continue a match in hope of winning.

You're making a point about a fraction of the competitors. Your point is not wrong, it's just irrelevant. To those people it will make literally no difference. Fair enough. I wouldn't dispute that at all.
To the rest of competitors I'm arguing it will.

 

[yetanother]

In the sense of the argument this is a logical fallacy of composition and division.
What do these people matter? They only make up a portion of competitors. Most match stoppages are due to taps. That is a fact. Even in tournaments. The majority of competitors tap when in serious trouble. At all levels.

A dislocated elbow might be easy to see, but a broken foot or a torn MCL are virtually impossible to identify with certainty. Under a ruleset where pulling guard is not penalized and a milli is on the line, who wouldn't let their legs get ripped apart. Competing for a million dollars I'd think it's rather easy to breath through a dislocated ankle and continue a match in hope of winning.

You're making a point about a fraction of the competitors. Your point is not wrong, it's just irrelevant. To those people it will make literally no difference. Fair enough. I wouldn't dispute that at all.
To the rest of competitors I'm arguing it will.

I think it depends on the scoring and stuff. If you are winning in the finals you would risk a lot. If you get your knee destroyed on the finals you won't loose on the next day.
You are not winning against Nicky Rod/Victor Hugo or maybe Buchecha or Roger Gracie with a torn knee.

 

[Foppa21]

But if the price is $1 mil and you are in the final winning and you are 45 seconds from winning getting attacked in a sub there is a huge incentive not to tap.

Will bee interesting if they introduce the you cannot be saved by the bell rule as they threw around

 

[winterbike]

Victor Hugo is in!

 

[Foppa21]

But if the price is $1 mil and you are in the final winning and you are 45 seconds from winning getting attacked in a sub there is a huge incentive not to tap.

In the sense of the argument this is a logical fallacy of composition and division.
What do these people matter? They only make up a portion of competitors. Most match stoppages are due to taps. That is a fact. Even in tournaments. The majority of competitors tap when in serious trouble. At all levels.

A dislocated elbow might be easy to see, but a broken foot or a torn MCL are virtually impossible to identify with certainty. Under a ruleset where pulling guard is not penalized and a milli is on the line, who wouldn't let their legs get ripped apart. Competing for a million dollars I'd think it's rather easy to breath through a dislocated ankle and continue a match in hope of winning.

You're making a point about a fraction of the competitors. Your point is not wrong, it's just irrelevant. To those people it will make literally no difference. Fair enough. I wouldn't dispute that at all.
To the rest of competitors I'm arguing it will.

I know the large incentive definitely changes it. I'm just saying that I've seen it where the incentive has been far lower and people still don't tap with catastrophic results.

I'm a bit weird about it. There's always a chance (to quote Lloyd Christmas), but if you're caught, proper and your chances of continuing the match, let alone winning is based around the goodwill of your opponent why not tap? It's a question pretty much no one in this forum is going to have to face so it's all speculation. Gantumur Bayanduuren, as far as we know has not competed since he didn't tap to Mikey Musumeci and had his legs broken and ripped apart. His ability to earn has been impaired. The prize money may encourage behaviour we don't really want to see either. I'm glad it's not a decision I have to make.

Your opponent also has one million reasons to not give you time to tap, either

 

[JacJeanFinger]

Beside money, what change is the Aussie trying to implement?

 

[WoozyFailGuy]

I'll be at Craig's tournament instead of ADCC this year. Finally someone to break up that racket.

 

[Tebowned]

Beside money, what change is the Aussie trying to implement?

I'd say mostly money/ money-related.

 

[WoozyFailGuy]

I know the large incentive definitely changes it. I'm just saying that I've seen it where the incentive has been far lower and people still don't tap with catastrophic results.

I'm a bit weird about it. There's always a chance (to quote Lloyd Christmas), but if you're caught, proper and your chances of continuing the match, let alone winning is based around the goodwill of your opponent why not tap? It's a question pretty much no one in this forum is going to have to face so it's all speculation. Gantumur Bayanduuren, as far as we know has not competed since he didn't tap to Mikey Musumeci and had his legs broken and ripped apart. His ability to earn has been impaired. The prize money may encourage behaviour we don't really want to see either. I'm glad it's not a decision I have to make.

Your opponent also has one million reasons to not give you time to tap, either

Gantumur is never going to be the same man...I still don't understand how he wasn't tapping. Ridiculous mental strength, but a real life showing of bravery vs foolishness

I'd rather not feel like Mikey did and I'd rather not make someone feel like he did, but more importantly, you know, walk.

 

[Mick Dojang]

Beside money, what change is the Aussie trying to implement?

On the Rogan ep he mentioned that they're doing the fights in Karate Combat-style rectangular pits with sloped walls

Beyond that I think there are some minor rule changes but that went over my head