Could Volk be considered the GOAT with a second win over Lopes + Evloev?

[Steve Fox]

Yup. I would add Islam 1st fight as well, which was close enough that he COULD have gotten the W if he performed just a level or so up.

Then instead of 7-3 in title fights he would be 9-1 (presuming he loses the Islam rematch which is likely)

9-1.... + 2 division champ and Islam and Ilia on the resume. - yeah.
We can talk GOAT.


BUT fish can't ride bicycles and my aunt isn't my uncle and as my boy Max would say

Totally agree. I think Islam 1st fight goes both ways (for the purpose of GOAT) had he defeated Topuria. The rematch vs Islam and the way he was knocked out made him human.

 

[jeff7b9]

Totally agree. I think Islam 1st fight goes both ways (for the purpose of GOAT) had he defeated Topuria. The rematch vs Islam and the way he was knocked out made him human.

Indeed.
And it's not a knock on Volk AT ALL.

He has had an absolutely amazing career and he has a tremendous resume.

But- that very exclusive group is very exclusive for a reason.

Volk imo is a top 10 all time MMA fighter. Probably currently somewhere in the 6ish range. Hall of fame for sure and beloved fan favorite.



No shame in losing to Islam and Ilia who were top 3 p4p and both were younger and closer to their prime.

 

[JKS]

Aldo’s WEC title wins and defenses absolutely need to be counted, since the WEC’s FW division literally became the UFC FW division, and the WEC title became the UFC FW title.

So here are the stats.

Ranked wins: Aldo 12, Volk 10
Title wins: Aldo 11, Volk 7
Title defenses: Aldo 9, Volk 5
FW win streak: Aldo 25, Volk 16

To me, these are what matter, and any FW who wants to eclipse Jose needs to eclipse him in (at least most of) these metrics. The fact that Aldo lost some fights late in his career, after accomplishing all of this, isn’t particularly relevant to me. The Max and Volk fights were in like 2017 and 2019, an older fighter losing fights to younger fighters isn’t news.

To me, this comparison is not close. Like, at all. Jose Aldo is significantly ahead of Volk in every important metric. If Volk gets somewhat close to tying these, then it’s relevant to start looking at specific opponents of each guy and see how we feel about the comparison. But it really, really bothers me when people just say “oh, I just don’t think the opponents of yesteryear are as good as today, so it’s cool to just have 5 defenses and be GOAT” when the record is 9.

Well see, that is where I just don't see it. Like I said, the WEC accomplishments were relevant back in 2010 and maybe closer to 2015. But time has passed and those accomplishments don't mean as much as they use to from my perspective. There has to be more emphasis placed on the current and most relevant. I certainly count them towards Aldo's legacy, but as time goes on, to me they just don't weight as much as they did 15 years ago. I mean it's great that Frank Shamrock and Tito Ortiz had all these LHW title defenses, they have no relevance today.

Aldo didn't lose some fights, he lost 3 title fights to Conor and Max getting finished and all in his prime. And then he lost to Volk as well, it wasn't that late in his career vs Volk. He wasn't some aging fighter going up against up and comers. He was a top fighter fighting other top fighter, still near the top of the division. So losing to 3 of the other top FWs of all time, certainly is a knock on Aldo's place. For me that is the biggest thing taking Aldo out of the goat spot, it's the losses to those 3.

Sure, if you're gonna count all these overall stats Aldo has more accomplishments at FW. But it's quality over quantity and relevance that is very important as well and Volk has him beat there. To me that is what counts more.

 

[JustBleed69]

No, but I think he's the 145 goat.

 

[Superzorro]

Volk vs Max 1 was a CLEAR win for Volk, claiming that it was "close" is on par with claiming DC vs Jones 1 was close. Both claims are outlandish.
Volk vs Aldo was also a resounding 30-27.
Volk vs Max 2 was competitive, not a robbery like the Reyes fight, it's more in line with the Jones vs Gus 1 fight, which I didn't claim was a robbery for that reason.
Which leaves us with the Reyes loss vs Ilia loss, and it's pretty clear which of those is a worse look.

I'm comparing Volk's FW run to Jones' LHW run, Islam is not a part of that conversation. You can compare Volk's LW run to Jones' HW run but it's hard to draw any conclusions since Volk fought the P4P no. 1 while Jones cherry picked his fights and retired instead of fighting his Islam equivalent (Aspinall).

Either the official results of fights matter or they don’t. You can’t have it both ways. You FEEL it was close. Other people FEEL differently.

The Reyes fight wasn’t a loss. It was a unanimous decision victory. So it’s the Reyes VICTORY versus the Topuria knockout loss. Would you rather win a unanimous decision or get face planted before the championship rounds?

Jones fought the highest ranked contender(s) available at the time. Gane was ranked #1 when that fight was booked. Stipe was ranked #2 when that fight was booked.
Volkanovski didn’t do what Jones did at LHW at FW nor did he do what Jones did at HW for LW. A knockout loss is not better than two stoppage wins, no matter how you try to spin it.

 

[Superzorro]

Stipe was coming off aloss
Sonnen was coming off a loss
OSP was 1-1 in his last 2
Gane was 1-1 in his last 2
Shogun was 1-1 in his last 2
Machida was 1-2 in his last 3
2018 Gus was 2-2 in his last 4

Adversely, Jose Aldo was riding a 3 fight win streak prior to the Merab fight. Sure Yan/Cejudo were coming off losses but again there's context, Cejudo gave the champ Aljo a helluva fight, same for Yan against Aljo + O'Malley.

The truth is that there is a lot more that goes into a title shot than merit. Sometimes it's the state of the division (common in the heavier ones), sometimes it's the lack of remaining contenders for the champ, sometimes it's just best for business (e.g Adesanya vs DDP).

Outliers don’t make the rule.

Aldo was not at his best.
Cejudo was not at his best and went on to lose every single fight after before retiring.

Title wins are better than normal wins. Let’s not get crazy. Just because you can name outliers doesn’t mean that it overrides the general rule. Is Donald Cerrone or Jim Miller the GOAT because they have the most wins now?

 

[BFoe]

Well see, that is where I just don't see it. Like I said, the WEC accomplishments were relevant back in 2010 and maybe closer to 2015. But time has passed and those accomplishments don't mean as much as they use to from my perspective. There has to be more emphasis placed on the current and most relevant. I certainly count them towards Aldo's legacy, but as time goes on, to me they just don't weight as much as they did 15 years ago. I mean it's great that Frank Shamrock and Tito Ortiz had all these LHW title defenses, they have no relevance today.

Aldo didn't lose some fights, he lost 3 title fights to Conor and Max getting finished and all in his prime. And then he lost to Volk as well, it wasn't that late in his career vs Volk. He wasn't some aging fighter going up against up and comers. He was a top fighter fighting other top fighter, still near the top of the division. So losing to 3 of the other top FWs of all time, certainly is a knock on Aldo's place. For me that is the biggest thing taking Aldo out of the goat spot, it's the losses to those 3.

Sure, if you're gonna count all these overall stats Aldo has more accomplishments at FW. But it's quality over quantity and relevance that is very important as well and Volk has him beat there. To me that is what counts more.

So even though the UFC literally imported the WEC’s FW division, and promoted the WEC FW Champ to UFC FW Champ, at some point you just said, “eh, I don’t think that’s relevant anymore so I guess I won’t count it”? Even if we did that—which we shouldn’t—Volk still doesn’t have as many title wins or defenses as Aldo.

I mean, we agree that Max and Volk are great FWs, right? Look at the guys they beat: Showtime Pettis, Ricardo Lamas, Chad Mendes, Korean Zombie, Cub Swanson…
all WEC fighters. Max won the FW belt by beating a WEC fighter, and Volk got his FW belt by beating Max. One of Volk’s so-called quality defenses is the 2022 version of Korean Zombie (who only fought once after that before retiring) for crying out loud.
—Aldo has Volk beaten on quantity and quality both.

I disagree that the 2017 and 2019 versions of Aldo are prime versions, they aren’t. Aldo was 13 and 15 years into his career at those points. But I disagree even more with discounting a body of work that nobody has eclipsed, because of a couple of head to head matchups. When I’m ranking GOATs, I care about how they performed relative to their division. I care about what Matt Highes accomplished, for example, and not that he lost to Dennis Hallman twice.

 

[fortheo]

Ah I see
My feeling on it is that if Volk put together another crazy string of defenses, then at some point we might have to consider if all his defenses across two reigns are greater than all of Aldo’s in one reign, but he would need like 5+ defenses or something. There’s just no way that happens.

Yeah. I thought he had a very slim chance IF he fought 3 times last year, but he only fought once. He has no chance now unless he ages in reverse. If somehow he beats Diego again, then takes movsar and Murphy's zeroes, I'd expect the conversation to be more interesting, but even then Aldo would have the numbers

Personally I think prime for prime, volk is better than Aldo. But in terms of best resume/accomplishments, It's Aldo for sure.

 

[Subline]

Outliers don’t make the rule.

Aldo was not at his best.
Cejudo was not at his best and went on to lose every single fight after before retiring.

Title wins are better than normal wins. Let’s not get crazy. Just because you can name outliers doesn’t mean that it overrides the general rule. Is Donald Cerrone or Jim Miller the GOAT because they have the most wins now?

I don't see why we even need a "rule" if we can just go case by case, which is what I was promoting in the first place. Other guy's OG comment was that 10 title wins is the prerequisite for GOAT talks, but considering certain pre-title wins of one fighter could be more impressive than some of another guy's title wins (regardless of whether it's an outlier case) is exactly why that prerequisite should be taken with a grain of salt. I don't see why that's a controversial take

Either the official results of fights matter or they don’t. You can’t have it both ways. You FEEL it was close. Other people FEEL differently.

The Jones vs Reyes fight was scored by 18 official MMA judges across the US who unanimously agreed on Reyes winning. I'm not saying the judges are irrelevant, but they are prone to human error, which is why a larger consensus is more reliable than only 3 judges. The system for deciding outcomes in our sport is flawed, that's something that even the UFC consistently acknowledges and sometimes takes into account in the matchmaking process after robbery decisions. It would be nice if we could put 100% trust in official records but sadly that is not the case for the time being.

 

[Superzorro]

I don't see why we even need a "rule" if we can just go case by case, which is what I was promoting in the first place. Other guy's OG comment was that 10 title wins is the prerequisite for GOAT talks, but considering certain pre-title wins of one fighter could be more impressive than some of another guy's title wins (regardless of whether it's an outlier case) is exactly why that prerequisite should be taken with a grain of salt. I don't see why that's a controversial take

The Jones vs Reyes fight was scored by 18 official MMA judges across the US who unanimously agreed on Reyes winning. I'm not saying the judges are irrelevant, but they are prone to human error, which is why a larger consensus is more reliable than only 3 judges. The system for deciding outcomes in our sport is flawed, that's something that even the UFC consistently acknowledges and sometimes takes into account in the matchmaking process after robbery decisions. It would be nice if we could put 100% trust in official records but sadly that is not the case for the time being.

Case by case or in other words, rules for thee but not for me. Context matters. But usually when people say context, it’s whatever context favors my argument. Context that goes against my argument = downplay, disregard, endless excuses or sweep it under the rug. And I think I’ve proven that to be the case with you here.

Pre title wins matter when the other metrics are equal. In this case, they are not even close to being equal.

The Jones vs Reyes fight was officially, conclusively and permanently scored by three judges. And they all had Jones winning by unanimous decision. Fact or fiction? MMA is not a popularity contest. And there are no participation trophies.

 

[TankAbbott4Eva]

145?

Right Now

1A Aldo
1B Volk

I’d say MMA FW GOAT is Aldp and Volk the best UFC 145er

 

[Subline]

Case by case or in other words, rules for thee but not for me. Context matters. But usually when people say context, it’s whatever context favors my argument. Context that goes against my argument = downplay, disregard, endless excuses or sweep it under the rug. And I think I’ve proven that to be the case with you here.

Pre title wins matter when the other metrics are equal. In this case, they are not even close to being equal.

You literally admitted that outliers exist and that pre-title wins CAN be better than certain title wins. There is no rational explanation for why we shouldn't go case by case for each individual win with that in mind. So again there is no reason pre-title wins should only come into play if the number of title wins are equal.

 

[Qays Stetkevich]

hmmm it's still agreat win. It wouldn't add nothing. It just wouldn't add something unique.

It for sure furthers his goat claims, because as far as i can tell, people look at the amount of title defenses/wins only. And if they AREN'T looking at only that, volk is already the FW goat because there is no reasonable arguement for aldo being better other than the fact he has more title wins

Good points. And any win over a younger, modern fighter Volk gets at this point adds significantly to his legacy. Since his "comeback", any win will be another defense, and even more so proof that he's old but still got it. A run would be unreal(istic).

 

[JKS]

So even though the UFC literally imported the WEC’s FW division, and promoted the WEC FW Champ to UFC FW Champ, at some point you just said, “eh, I don’t think that’s relevant anymore so I guess I won’t count it”? Even if we did that—which we shouldn’t—Volk still doesn’t have as many title wins or defenses as Aldo.

I mean, we agree that Max and Volk are great FWs, right? Look at the guys they beat: Showtime Pettis, Ricardo Lamas, Chad Mendes, Korean Zombie, Cub Swanson…
all WEC fighters. Max won the FW belt by beating a WEC fighter, and Volk got his FW belt by beating Max. One of Volk’s so-called quality defenses is the 2022 version of Korean Zombie (who only fought once after that before retiring) for crying out loud.
—Aldo has Volk beaten on quantity and quality both.

I disagree that the 2017 and 2019 versions of Aldo are prime versions, they aren’t. Aldo was 13 and 15 years into his career at those points. But I disagree even more with discounting a body of work that nobody has eclipsed, because of a couple of head to head matchups. When I’m ranking GOATs, I care about how they performed relative to their division. I care about what Matt Highes accomplished, for example, and not that he lost to Dennis Hallman twice.

I don't think you're reading into this properly. I never said I doesn't count it and it's not relevant, I said over time it loses relevance as time goes by it should be counted as having less worth than it did in 2010 to 2015. And I think that's fair.

Beating those guys in the UFC is a very good accomplishment as those wins came in the UFC after those guys spent years there. Beating fighters like Brookins, Tiny Nog and Gamburyan and Mike Brown, has less relevance and importance when talking about goat in 2026.

Aldo got blasted by Conor in him prime, beat Frankie Edgar convicingly to get the title back and then lost twice to Max by TKO. Aldo doesn't just lose his prime over that time lol. He was very much at his best in those fights.

I am sorry, I just don't see it the same way you do.

 

[BFoe]

I don't think you're reading into this properly. I never said I doesn't count it and it's not relevant, I said over time it loses relevance as time goes by it should be counted as having less worth than it did in 2010 to 2015. And I think that's fair.

Beating those guys in the UFC is a very good accomplishment as those wins came in the UFC after those guys spent years there. Beating fighters like Brookins, Tiny Nog and Gamburyan and Mike Brown, has less relevance and importance when talking about goat in 2026.

Aldo got blasted by Conor in him prime, beat Frankie Edgar convicingly to get the title back and then lost twice to Max by TKO. Aldo doesn't just lose his prime over that time lol. He was very much at his best in those fights.

I am sorry, I just don't see it the same way you do.

That’s ok if we don’t see it the same way.

It doesn’t ultimately matter whether we agree on Aldo’s prime or not. Jose Aldo set a series of metrics at FW which have never been eclipsed. Or that have even been approached, really. That’s as clear as I can make it. When another fighter gets close to his title wins and defenses, then it will be time to make those comparisons. The losses you’re taking issue with happened after he had set these standards.

Also, Mike Brown was a phenomenal fighter, one of the best FWs ever probably. Shame that fighters like that are being forgotten.

 

[JKS]

That’s ok if we don’t see it the same way.

It doesn’t ultimately matter whether we agree on Aldo’s prime or not. Jose Aldo set a series of metrics at FW which have never been eclipsed. Or that have even been approached, really. That’s as clear as I can make it. When another fighter gets close to his title wins and defenses, then it will be time to make those comparisons. The losses you’re taking issue with happened after he had set these standards.

Also, Mike Brown was a phenomenal fighter, one of the best FWs ever probably. Shame that fighters like that are being forgotten.

Aldo's metrics and stats at FW are above all, I am not going to debate that. I just don't value certain parts of them as much as I use to a decade ago. And I hold Volk's accomplishments and resume, although less metric wise of more value. Like having 3 wins over Max and a win over Aldo, is worth more than a larger quantity of defenses and wins over lesser quality competition. The other part is I just can't have a fighter as goat, when he lost to 3 other top FWs of all time. H2H does have some value there. It's very clear that Aldo was not the best FW of all time when talking skils and actually being the best in the way to beat the other best guys. Accomplishments like title defenses, ranked wins and streak count for most, but that component needs to be weighed and can really skew my perception.

It took me quite some time to place Volk as goat, I didnt have a clear goat since about 2019. But after Volk won his title back and thought about it more and more, I placed Volk over him and the rest.

 

[BFoe]

Aldo's metrics and stats at FW are above all, I am not going to debate that. I just don't value certain parts of them as much as I use to a decade ago. And I hold Volk's accomplishments and resume, although less metric wise of more value. Like having 3 wins over Max and a win over Aldo, is worth more than a larger quantity of defenses and wins over lesser quality competition. The other part is I just can't have a fighter as goat, when he lost to 3 other top FWs of all time. H2H does have some value there. It's very clear that Aldo was not the best FW of all time when talking skils and actually being the best in the way to beat the other best guys. Accomplishments like title defenses, ranked wins and streak count for most, but that component needs to be weighed and can really skew my perception.

It took me quite some time to place Volk as goat, I didnt have a clear goat since about 2019. But after Volk won his title back and thought about it more and more, I placed Volk over him and the rest.

I get it, I just see it differently. Like, of course Max is a great fighter, and beating him is a good win. That said, sometimes one fighter just has another fighter’s number. Fedor had Nog’s number. For some weird reason, Dennis Hallman had Matt Hughes’ number. But if you evaluate Fedor or Hughes, they have tons of other stuff on their championship resumes. Volk beat Max for the belt, and 2 of his 5 defenses are Max. At a certain point I just feel like, “Ok cool, Volk definitely has Max’s number…now what else we got?” And the answer is, a shopworn Korean Zombie on a 1-fight win streak, Brian Ortega on a 1-fight win streak also over shopworn Korean Zombie….Eh.

And I’m not trying to shit on Volk or his reign, I’m just saying, I don’t really see the type of stuff to make me say 5 defenses is equal or better than Aldo’s 9.

I also feel differently about H2H matchups, (and also using common opponents when ranking for that matter). For me, stuff like that is only in the event of an absolute tiebreaker where two fighters have nearly equivalent resumes. There’s just too many variables: when in two fighters’ careers the fight happened, could have a bad camp, injuries, bad style matchup, whatever. I look at what a fighter accomplishes relative to their entire division to rank them.

 

[jeskola]

You are getting way ahead of yourself. Volk will probably retire once he beats lopes. Look for him to try and book boxing.

 

[jitzmonkey]

If he goes on a solid 5-6 fight run w/o too many more rematches, he could definitely be up there.

He’s possibly only 2-3 more fights from being GFWOAT.

Considering that I don’t recall much controversy in DJ’s 12 straight title fight wins, he’s going to be difficult to surpass.

Aldo only having 1 rematch (didn’t look back) in his ten title fight winning streak does make his run as a champ stoker impressive as well.
Maybe Volk needs more than 3 wings at 145 to be considered the GOAT at FW.