Circling The Arguments (SCO thread v. 32)

[waiguoren]

Mueller report, page 4:

The Internet Research Agency (IRA) carried out the earliest Russian interference operations identified by the investigation---a social media campaign designed to provoke and amplify political and social discord in the US....The IRA later used social media accounts and interest groups to sow discord in the US political system through what it termed "information warfare". The campaign evolved from a generalized program designed in 2014 and 2015 to undermine the US electoral system, to a targeted operation that by early 2016 favored candidate Trump and disparaged candidate Clinton. The IRA's operation also included the purchase of political advertisements on social media in the names of US persons and entities, as well as the staging of political rallies inside the United States. To organize those rallies, IRA employees posed as US grassroots entities and persons and made contact with Trump supporters and Trump campaign officials in the United States. The investigation did not identify evidence that any US persons conspired or coordinated with the IRA.

Link to the full Mueller report: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/18/us/politics/mueller-report-document.html

 

[IGIT]

But but obstruction!

hi MFIC,

that part is a little troubling.

at the end of the day, if i were a supporter of this POTUS, i'd have preferred a slam dunk; exoneration from Mr. Mueller on the obstruction charges.

- IGIT

 

[method115]

there's not much else for you to do Bob...this is a nightmare of shit behavior you seem obligated to defend. Which is nuts but whatever.

On the real though, and while it is super iffy politically, congress basically has no choice but to impeach the president at this point. Just from a duty standpoint...this report is a novel of criminal behavior that was only not treated as such because he's president.

I wonder if they will actually try and impeach him. Nancy Pelosi didn't seem to want to do it before the report even came out. You'd think she'd wait for that at the very least.

I assume the redactions are just fine since I don't see anyone complaining about that part.

 

[waiguoren]

hi MFIC,

that part is a little troubling.

at the end of the day, if i were a supporter of this POTUS, i'd have preferred a slam dunk; exoneration from Mr. Mueller on the obstruction charges.

- IGIT

hi IGIT,

Prosecutors never exonerate.

- waiguoren

 

[andnowweknow]

I wonder if they will actually try and impeach him. Nancy Pelosi didn't seem to want to do it before the report even came out. You'd think she'd wait for that at the very least.

I assume the redactions are just fine since I don't see anyone complaining about that part.

Pretty sure she will have little choice but looks like they will see to talk to Mueller first on the Hill. Barr has basically lied so far and things are little different after seeing what's actually in the report.

 

[andnowweknow]

hi IGIT,

Prosecutors never exonerate.

- waiguoren

lol...Mueller literally says in plain English, if he could have cleared the president, he would have.

Try again.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

No collusion. No obstruction. It's what any sensible person recognized as obvious years ago.

Lol at the conspiracy theorists in this thread.

 

[MikeMcMann]

So is the collusion done now and the only thing that remains is the OOJ? I honestly never cared much about OOJ part of this report.

Sorry but no.

The report establishes that Trump associated colluded with Russia. The issue was that it could not be established as 'intentional' and thus could not be proven a crime. It could not be established as 'intentional' largely due to the OOJ and lack of cooperation with the investigators.

But because the high bar for a criminal act could not be established does not mean the collusion ('links' and 'coordinations') will go away.



Think of it this way if you want. Think of all the evidence against John Gotti but with witnesses also being criminals and therefore compromised and many tight lipped and willing to go to jail, it is enormously difficult to prosecute. Especially if Gotti had the power to refuse a subpoena to appear like the POTUS used.

would you say that means Gotti did not commit the crimes we all know he did? No. It means they could surmount the high bar for successful prosecution. One that is much higher with a POTUS.

 

[kpt018]

Because a lot of behavior can be taken as "evidence of obstruction" (e.g., the firing of Comey or only responding to questions in writing) and the citizenry was already aware of it.

On the core question ("collusion"), Trump looks great so far. I'm about to start reading the report and it's possible I'll see it differently afterward.

I'm not following. The fact that folks that were following this were aware doesn't mean the report looks good for him. It confirmed that there is evidence of obstruction. I can't see that as anyway but really damning for the president.

Fair enough on the "collusion" aspect.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

I wonder if they will actually try and impeach him. Nancy Pelosi didn't seem to want to do it before the report even came out.

Not sure if they will or won't, but it would be a boon to Trump if they do. Pelosi knows this. The Republicans foolishly overreached impeaching Clinton years ago, and they had a much better basis for doing so then Dems currently have with Trump.

 

[SBJJ]

lol...Mueller literally says in plain English, if he could have cleared the president, he would have.

Try again.

When a defendant is not found guilty. When the evidence is not strong enough. That defendant is essentially cleared

 

[bobgeese]

there's not much else for you to do Bob...this is a nightmare of shit behavior you seem obligated to defend. Which is nuts but whatever.

On the real though, and while it is super iffy politically, congress basically has no choice but to impeach the president at this point. Just from a duty standpoint...this report is a novel of criminal behavior that was only not treated as such because he's president.

You truly, truly don’t understand how politics works.

 

[IGIT]

hi IGIT,

Prosecutors never exonerate.

- waiguoren

heyo waiguoren,

Mr. Mueller wasn't a prosecutor; he was special counsel. as i understand it, his report made a number of conclusions.

one thing he could not conclude, was whether or not obstruction occurred.

from the report;

If we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the president clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards however we are unable to reach that judgment. The evidence we obtained about the president's actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred. Accordingly while this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.

i'm basically quoting Mr. Mueller. if you disagree with what i said, then your argument is with him, and not with me.

- IGIT

 

[HereticBD]

I wonder if they will actually try and impeach him.

They won't. For one simple reason. It's a political game. Nothing more, nothing less. Even if they found some very damaging stuff, they would still need support from the American people, and the Senate. They have neither. The people actually don't give a shit about any of this, as far as influencing their vote goes. It's not even on their radar. It would be political suicide for the Dems to try anything drastic, and waste even more time on this shit.

It's over. There will be some bitching from Schiff For Brains and his cronies, but that's about all you can expect.

 

[Joe]

This pretty clearly establishes collusion.

Another interesting bit:



That was reported on earlier but confirmed here.

Erik prince was involved in this because of course

 

[My Spot]

"Intent doesn't matter, he's very bad." - George Stephanopoulos

ORANGE MAN BAD!!!

 

[zebby23]

Are you claiming that no innocent person has ever uttered "I'm fu****" because they believe the odds are stacked against them? That would be completely asinine.

I'm willing to agree with you that "I'm fu****" COULD imply Trump wrongdoings, but again, it's pure conjecture without more substance. To act like that's irrefutable proof of wrongdoing is foolish, and you know that.

It’s trump we’re talking about and that says something. The guy knew he was dealing with dirty people and he knew he himself was dirty.

And if I was innocent I would say, “I’m fucked” I’d say bring the investigation on.

Also, are we giving Trump the benefit of the doubt anymore?

 

[Quipling]

New thread. @Lead @panamaican @Madmick

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-report-buttoned-up-sco-thread-v-33.3947891/

 

[waiguoren]

Mueller report, page 5:

The social media campaign and the GRU hacking operations coincided with a series of contacts between Trump campaign officials and individuals with ties to the Russian government. The Office investigated whether those contacts reflected or resulted in the Campaign conspiring or coordinating with Russia in its election-interference activities. Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected that it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.

Link to the full Mueller report: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/18/us/politics/mueller-report-document.html

@kpt018

 

[SBJJ]

I'm not following. The fact that folks that were following this were aware doesn't mean the report looks good for him. It confirmed that there is evidence of obstruction. I can't see that as anyway but really damning for the president.

Fair enough on the "collusion" aspect.

Some evidence does not equal guilt. Plenty of innocent people have been convicted on evidence to later be exonerated with DNA.

The fact Mueller saw some evidence means Jack shit. He did not conclude guilt.

You are essentially cherry picking the report but NOT accepting the bottom line