Choque - The official thread
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George Gracie.
"Another point of interest is that George Gracie was awarding colored belts. Geraldo Fernandes and Cearense wore red belts which must have represented a minimal level of competence, according to reports of their matches with Takeo Yano. Diniz Camara had a brown belt, which must have represented a reasonable level of skill, because Yano gave him a black belt."
This was in the 1952 chapter, and was jiu jitsu.
Separately, Fadda was giving out Judo rank, using White-Green-Dark Red-Brown-Black in 1954.
Another point I found interesting - listening to Helio's stories, Kato was the #2 judo guy in all of Japan and when Helio beat him, they had to send Kimura (the #1 guy) over to avenge the loss.
Not at all how it actually happened.
Kimura, Yamaguchi, and Kato were on a world tour to spread judo and do some pro wrestling. They hit Hawaii first. Then they went to Brazil. Kato was the youngest, least experienced, and apart from a few local and regional judo tournaments in Japan, a virtual unknown. The first match with Helio, he literally threw Helio up and down the mats until time ran out and it was declared a draw. The second Match (23 days later) started out pretty much the same, with Kato throwing Helio repeatedly, then once they hit the ground they both secured chokes on each other, and Helio was able to finish his first. Kimura then destroyed Helio in their fight, which was just a few weeks after that. The whole thing went down during one visit.
Not at all how it actually happened.
Kimura, Yamaguchi, and Kato were on a world tour to spread judo and do some pro wrestling. They hit Hawaii first. Then they went to Brazil. Kato was the youngest, least experienced, and apart from a few local and regional judo tournaments in Japan, a virtual unknown. The first match with Helio, he literally threw Helio up and down the mats until time ran out and it was declared a draw. The second Match (23 days later) started out pretty much the same, with Kato throwing Helio repeatedly, then once they hit the ground they both secured chokes on each other, and Helio was able to finish his first. Kimura then destroyed Helio in their fight, which was just a few weeks after that. The whole thing went down during one visit.
Don't stop reading when you get to the end of the book. Be sure to read Appendix 4 - Lineages as well as the footnotes for that appendix at the very end. Interesting stuff. He addresses the question of where Helio learned jiu jitsu (since Helio never claimed to have studied under Maeda, never studied under Ferro or Pires, and he only "observed" Carlos teaching for under a year). He talks about Fadda and his origin. He talks about Haroldo Brito and his student Oswaldo Alves and the Gracies training with them as well as George Mehdi.
Good stuff, in many ways more interesting than the translated newspaper articles that make up the body of the book.
Good stuff, in many ways more interesting than the translated newspaper articles that make up the body of the book.
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bigraydaddy1
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This is a great thread Thanks to all who contributed
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I haven't met a single old school guy who hangs a Helio Gracie shrine, I mean picture, in their gym that approves of Choque. I even had an argument with one who argued with me that the newpaper articles in Choque weren't real and that it was all just anti-Gracie propaganda.
I approve of this book. I need to DL it soon.
I approve of this book. I need to DL it soon.
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Yes
they fabricated all the old news paper articles. Much likes the Jews planting all those fake dinosaur bones.
Currently F12's all time #1 thread by number of replies. By number of views it is #3 not counting sticky threads.
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Ttt ?
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Well stop reading it then.��
Very interesting thread. I'm not nearly through yet but some very interesting info mixed up with the usual anti-Gracie feelings that have become so popular as of late, specially in the United States.
I would like to read the books themselves, but I had the impression this was a Portuguese language book translated to English, because the author seems to be Brazilian. But yet I can't find it in Portuguese. Is it originally published in English? Like with the Reila book, I much prefer reading it in the original language to make sure nothing is lost in translation since I speak Portuguese fluently too. I see so many horrible translation jobs out there with books from the languages I speak to English.
Since this is talking about Brazilian history and referencing articles written in Portuguese I hope this is a Brazilian book. Much closer to the source.
Also, for those who read the books, are the newspaper articles just mentioned in transcription form in the book or do they re-print the actual original articles, meaning an actual scan of the page? I hope the later as it leaves no room for "personal interpretations" by the author. Anybody who reads Portuguese can get the story direct from the article without going through the author's filter. Otherwise the book becomes much more questionable.
So far by what I gathered from the thread not too many surprises. Neither in the revisionist history, because ALL history in revisionist somehow, neither surprised with the reactions from some of the threads posters, who's motto of most seems to be discrediting Gracies and even Brazilians at any chance available.
I personally never believed the Helio invented BJJ or the frail kid who learned by watching tale. But I wouldn't go as far as discrediting Helio's contribution, or the Gracies for that matter and definitely not Brazil's general contribution.
For anybody without an agenda, and with a bit of multicultural knowledge and familiarization with martial arts it's easy to see BJJ is not just Judo or just a Japanese martial art. Just one look at a BJJ match, the way they train and the philosophy and there is Brazilian culture written all over it. Not even a question. It would have never evolved the way it did and in the shape it did in Japan. Japanese culture is just too rigid and different to accommodate that. So for those saying BJJ is not actually Brazilian, hopefully you at least have never been to Brazil, don't travel and is new to martial arts, for your defense. Because if BJJ is not Brazilian, collegiate Wrestling is even less American and if you dig deep enough into history, depending which root you take, all martial arts are either Chinese, Hindu or Greek.
BJJ is very Brazilian and it has Brazil and it's culture stamped on it every turn of the way.
As for Helio, creator of BJJ or not, it's easy to tell he is just more important than Carlos in the grand scheme of things and I think this book also reenforces it. This was one part of the Rorion propaganda that always made sense to me when I talk to BJJ old timers. Everybody will say Helio was the teacher, the trainer, even to Carlos own children and even if some of them will say they got their training from Carlos himself.
Creator or not, without Helio BJJ would not be what it is today. You can naturally and should give credit to Carlos, George, Carlson, Rolles, Rickson etc. But either by merit or by chance, Helio's person has the most crossings with BJJ's history. He trained basically the whole 2nd generation, which was the most important to BJJ as we know it today, he not only trained but also fathered arguably the best and biggest representatives of the art in the family, he shaped a whole line of thought for many generations about the style. Carlos, Carlson, Rolles and Rickson did as well. But even from them it points back to Helio, while not all Helio points back to Carlos really, and this book shows that even more clearly it seems.
With that said, regardless of Fadda, Omo etc. the Gracies were still the chief car in the development and evolution of BJJ. You can question their methods, ethics and what have you. But their dedication and importance is hard to question in an agenda-free environment. There is only one Maeda, one Franca, one Fadda, one Omo, one Mehdi, but there are dozens of Gracies who all put work and added to the art and most importantly kept it alive and brought it from a circus act into the lime light of international professional fighting.
I would like to read the books themselves, but I had the impression this was a Portuguese language book translated to English, because the author seems to be Brazilian. But yet I can't find it in Portuguese. Is it originally published in English? Like with the Reila book, I much prefer reading it in the original language to make sure nothing is lost in translation since I speak Portuguese fluently too. I see so many horrible translation jobs out there with books from the languages I speak to English.
Since this is talking about Brazilian history and referencing articles written in Portuguese I hope this is a Brazilian book. Much closer to the source.
Also, for those who read the books, are the newspaper articles just mentioned in transcription form in the book or do they re-print the actual original articles, meaning an actual scan of the page? I hope the later as it leaves no room for "personal interpretations" by the author. Anybody who reads Portuguese can get the story direct from the article without going through the author's filter. Otherwise the book becomes much more questionable.
So far by what I gathered from the thread not too many surprises. Neither in the revisionist history, because ALL history in revisionist somehow, neither surprised with the reactions from some of the threads posters, who's motto of most seems to be discrediting Gracies and even Brazilians at any chance available.
I personally never believed the Helio invented BJJ or the frail kid who learned by watching tale. But I wouldn't go as far as discrediting Helio's contribution, or the Gracies for that matter and definitely not Brazil's general contribution.
For anybody without an agenda, and with a bit of multicultural knowledge and familiarization with martial arts it's easy to see BJJ is not just Judo or just a Japanese martial art. Just one look at a BJJ match, the way they train and the philosophy and there is Brazilian culture written all over it. Not even a question. It would have never evolved the way it did and in the shape it did in Japan. Japanese culture is just too rigid and different to accommodate that. So for those saying BJJ is not actually Brazilian, hopefully you at least have never been to Brazil, don't travel and is new to martial arts, for your defense. Because if BJJ is not Brazilian, collegiate Wrestling is even less American and if you dig deep enough into history, depending which root you take, all martial arts are either Chinese, Hindu or Greek.
BJJ is very Brazilian and it has Brazil and it's culture stamped on it every turn of the way.
As for Helio, creator of BJJ or not, it's easy to tell he is just more important than Carlos in the grand scheme of things and I think this book also reenforces it. This was one part of the Rorion propaganda that always made sense to me when I talk to BJJ old timers. Everybody will say Helio was the teacher, the trainer, even to Carlos own children and even if some of them will say they got their training from Carlos himself.
Creator or not, without Helio BJJ would not be what it is today. You can naturally and should give credit to Carlos, George, Carlson, Rolles, Rickson etc. But either by merit or by chance, Helio's person has the most crossings with BJJ's history. He trained basically the whole 2nd generation, which was the most important to BJJ as we know it today, he not only trained but also fathered arguably the best and biggest representatives of the art in the family, he shaped a whole line of thought for many generations about the style. Carlos, Carlson, Rolles and Rickson did as well. But even from them it points back to Helio, while not all Helio points back to Carlos really, and this book shows that even more clearly it seems.
With that said, regardless of Fadda, Omo etc. the Gracies were still the chief car in the development and evolution of BJJ. You can question their methods, ethics and what have you. But their dedication and importance is hard to question in an agenda-free environment. There is only one Maeda, one Franca, one Fadda, one Omo, one Mehdi, but there are dozens of Gracies who all put work and added to the art and most importantly kept it alive and brought it from a circus act into the lime light of international professional fighting.
By the way, about the title of the book, it has nothing to do with Choke. The word Choque means shock in Portuguese. Which is probably fitting as the book brings some shocking news to many.
Not sure why they used the Portuguese word for the English title. One more reason I was thinking this book was first published in Portuguese. But the English title should probably have been Shock: The Untold Story of Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil
Not sure why they used the Portuguese word for the English title. One more reason I was thinking this book was first published in Portuguese. But the English title should probably have been Shock: The Untold Story of Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil
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Pretty sure Choque has only been published in English, it's not a translation. I think the author speaks Portuguese, but IIRC he's American. AFAIK, Roberto Pedreira is a pseudonym. He reprints a lot of the articles he's quoting, with scans of a bunch of them too, IIRC. But as he includes exhaustive references, you can always go check his sources (which if I ever learn Portuguese would be an interesting exercise: I started, but I've had more luck with Spanish, as my girlfriend speaks it so much easier to practice).
Thanks for the heads up.
Choque: The Untold Story of Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil, Volume 3, 1961-1999
Downloading to my Kindle from Amazon right now. Looks like it just came out a few days ago, they have the paperback and Kindle editions available.
I guess this is the last one, as his book Jiu Jitsu In The South Zone picks up in the late 1990's.
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So this will detail the history of Hickson, Carlson, and Holles all the way through Vitor Belfort, and BJ Penn.
I'm guessing it will have some familiar names later on in the book.
I finished the 1965 chapter last night. So far, not a lot of interesting jiu jitsu stuff. There was a long section on Carlos' scamming of Oscar Santa Maria. Not excusing that behavior, but holy shit that dude was dumb as a bag of rocks. This shit lasted 30 years before the dude figured out there was no Mago Secreto (literally, secret wizard in Portuguese) and that it was Carlos who kept knocking up the guys wife. He also convinced the guy to give Carlos hundreds of millions of cruzeiros worth of cash and real estate for "Mago Secreto". There was also a long section on the military coup in Brazil at the time.
The only interesting jiu jitsu related stuff so far was the rise of judo. Starting to read a lot about Haroldo Brito, George Mehdi, and Osvaldo Alves. At one point, Carlson went to Brito's academy and asked to be accepted as a judo student. Helio and Carlos flipped their shit over that one. There's also mention that in the near future, Carlson's students, including Rolls, would go on to train judo with Alves and Mehdi.
