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Chisora signs to fight Wlad

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by Athenry04, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. oebi won Purple Belt

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    HAHA as much as i like him, fucking hell, Ol Del boy's gonna take a beatdown.

    Was just ask about Tua, to find out he drew with Barret, and got dropped in the first! the fuck?
     
  2. MCon White Belt

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    See I think this is actually a good career move for Chisora, lets assume he wins, then hes the man. If he loses but puts up a good fight then he's still the man because of his relative lack of experience. The only way I see this as a bad thing for Del Boy is if he gets absoloutly annihilated. I don't see that happening tho. Rooting for him alll the way!!
     
  3. consortium11 Slip The Jab

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    I'm not going to go point for point through your comments because they're essentially true. It's very rare that we see a title contender who has a hugely impressive or extensive resume these days. The last fighter I can think of who really earned his way to his title shot was Chris Arreola who essentially cleared out most of the US HW prospects and some contenders on his way to getting beaten by Vitali... and I guess Chambers did well post Povetkin. In truth when and if Povetkin finally gets a crack he's the only guy who's really built up a resume to the extent you'd go "yeah... he deserves that shot."

    So your criticisms are right...

    But they'd also be right if the man getting the shot at the belt was Daniil Peretyatko (my third favourite boxer in the world).

    The simple fact is Chisora doesn't stack up to anyone on the list. In his 14 wins only 3 of them matter in the slightest. Danny Williams for name value and Sexton for beating a fellow prospect. But let me make this quite clear... if you think that Monte Barrett was shot then Danny Williams had been machine gunned. Williams himself was going through interviews saying "I'm done... I'm shot" and in the fight previously had been humiliated by Carl Baker... a man infamous for being too fat for standard scales to give an accurate weight measurement and getting kissed by Chisora during their weigh in before Chisora demolished him. So Danny Williams matters in name value only. A dozen (or more) UK fighters would have done that to Williams with just as much ease.

    Which leaves us with the Sexton wins. I like Sexton. He's tough, gutsy and pretty skilled. He's also firmly in the "prospect" stage. That's not to say he doesn't have good wins... he's most famous for his two heart fueled victories over Martin Rogan but he's also picked up decent scalps in fellow prospect Chris Burton and domestic contender Pele Reid. I think the Sexton win's a good win that Chisora can look back on and while I don't think Sexton will ever really reach above European level (and he may struggle to escape domestic competition considering the amount of talent coming up) it's certainly good.

    But Boystov's win over Bydenko is better than any Chisora has on his record... and he's got a number of fighters there who I think would probably beat Sexton (Chisora's best win) at this point. Likewise Solis... where about half the people on his record mean more than any win Chisora has. Dimitrenko may still be not quite over the Chambers loss (but was Peter when he had his crack) but just look at his record and look at Chisora's. There's a reason one is a contender and one is a prospect...

    I said I wouldn't but I find myself going point for point on these names. No, none of them are shining lights in the division... but they've all got more going for them than Chisora does at this point. I can easily go through their records and point out the wins they have that are better than anything Chisora has right now.

    Here's where I can't follow you. As I mentioned above there's no way wins over Danny Williams and Sexton (x2) match up with the records those guys have. Excluding Williams as he's shot to hell (far worse than the likes of Barrett, McCall and Brewster) that's two wins of note over a fellow prospect. The only guy mentioned who can't really match that is Malik but he gets through on quantity over quality. Even Pulev (8-0) is on a comparable level to Chisora right now on the basis of his win over Skelton.

    It's not that I don't respect Chisora as a boxer... I'm not a fan and I don't like him personally but that doesn't mean I downgrade his skills... it's simply that his record doesn't compare to those I mentioned. He's a prospect and a solid one (but we'll learn more if the domestic HW scene comes alive)... but almost all of those guys either are or are in the process of becoming contenders right now.
     
  4. StompHisFace** Banned Banned

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    i dont see him beatin wladimir......
     
  5. ThirdPartyView Keeping Jack Dempsey from ducking

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    Sure it does. Let's look at Solis, for example. His only notable win is over the ghost of Barrett, which I still say is comparable to Williams. Yeah, Williams is shot as hell, but so was Barrett. The only argument for Barrett is that he was losing to comparatively better fighters as a whole, but even then he was on the downside of his career and I hesitate to give much credibility to a win over him (especially when Solis did it after Barrett was 3 for 7 including an upset L to Cliff Couser).

    I may have overstated Chisora's status as compared to Dimitrenko & Boytsov, but I really don't see the material difference in quality of opposition you claim to see for the rest of these guys - as you yourself conceded, you may be tinted with bias against Chisora, hence trying to pump up the other guys at his expense.

    Edit: Sorry if I've come off as snide, but I do get the impression that you are trying to play down Chisora while elevating other prospects in the division...
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2010
  6. consortium11 Slip The Jab

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    Danny Williams got destroyed by the at the time 8-3 Carl Baker who had beaten 1 fighter with a winning record (11-3... 2 wins over fighters with winning record and had lost to 14-50-6 and 37-65-8 fighters) and his loses including a 6-22-3 fighter and a 1-2 fighter. He's obese, unskilled and in no way a prospect on the domestic scene. Williams himself said he was shot prior to the Chisora bout... and retired immediately after

    Monte Barrett on the other hand has never lost to a fighter with a losing record... and never to one without twice as many wins as loses. Outside of his loss to Clouser (immediately avenged) he hasn't lost to anyone who's not a top prospect or a solid contender (although his disputed loss to Whitaker is a low point). He also came back from his defeats to Solis and Ustinov to ruin Tua's coming out party and drop the iron chinned machine before likewise retiring.

    I struggle to see how anyone who's watched either Barrett or Williams over the last 2 years or so wouldn't say Barrett, while still past his best, is no-where near as shot as Williams.

    You also downgrade a lot of Solis's other wins. Remember, we're comparing them to Sexton, Chisora's only other opponent that's worth anything. Andreas Sidon, Oleksiy Mazykin, Aldo Colliander, Chauncy Welliver and Carl Davis Drumond all compare well to Sexton... and even the likes of Kevin Burnett and Mamuka Jikurashvili aren't that far off. Solis took them all out... often early in his career.

    On a side note it's interesting to see that Taras Bydenko beat them a few fights before Solid did... it's one of those boxing double acts you occasionally see.

    I'd say the same thing if it was Tyson Fury or Tom Dallas getting the shot... and I like both of them (and Chisora's resume is only just better than Fury's).

    To pick out some names I mentioned:

    Ustinov: Wins over Vidoz, Sprott and Barrett (I'd rate all of them as more impressive than beating Williams) as well as a few untested prospects who are just below Sexton's level.

    Timur Ibragimov: Wins over the (not as shot as people think) McCall, a decent (if slightly overhyped due to his background) prospect in Singh, Timo Hoffman and a couple of ok prospects as well.

    Denis Bakhtov: Despite poor loses to some also-rans those were around 5 years ago. Two wins over Kretschmann aren't far off the level of Chisora's over Sexton and he's also got some other wins over ok prospects. He's more on the quantity than quality side though.

    Robert Helenius: Beat top prospect in Gregory Tony, demolished Bydenko and smashed decent domestic level contender in Gammer (who was also Danny Williams last real hurrah considering the Platov mess).

    Unless you think Sexton is going to set the world on fire in years to come than there's nothing that a win over him does that hasn't been done just as much by the people I listed.

    I'd love the idea that the current domestic HW crop (and it's a good one) are all pretty much at world title contention level. But they're not... they're not even that close.
     
  7. ThirdPartyView Keeping Jack Dempsey from ducking

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    Pretty easy, actually: Barrett had a lot more to fall from than Williams in terms of ability. Williams wasn't (generally; some Brits did push him as such) regarded as a better talent so his slouching and ups and downs were a lot more expected. On the other hand, Barrett plummeted pretty badly the last few years from being a fringe contender (#10-15 range) to becoming a glorified punching bag.

    I'm not downgrading anything - the opponents you listed were cannon fodder with gaudy records like Peter McNeeley back in the day. Yeah, they had pretty records, but that had to do with selective matchmaking rather than being legitimate terrors of the division. I have never heard of any of them as being 'big' wins.

    As for the rest of the 'name' opponents you listed, I disagree with their picks but I'm not going to go through a list explaining why - I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree here given that you're taking completely different conclusions on the worth of opponents than I am.
     
  8. totalstranga Ike Turner Backhand Belt

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    wow I must be falling off in my boxing, I don't even know who this guy is. I didn't know who Vitali's last opponent was either. I need to start reading Ring again, too bad it costs like $9 an issue
     
  9. 11b83 Purple Belt

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    Dan Rafael(espn) Twitter

    @danrafaelespn Contrary to reports, including on ESPN.com (which I didn't write), Klitschko-Chisora isn't done deal. Klitschko people said so this morning. about 3 hours ago
     
  10. consortium11 Slip The Jab

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    Let us put this simply. Did you see Barrett vs Tua? Did you see Baker vs Williams and Chisora vs Williams? Do you think Williams would have been able to get the result Barrett did against Tua? Do you think Barrett would have lost to Baker and been any worse against Chisora?

    Even during the worst run of his career it took one of the HW champs and two of the brightest prospects/contenders at HW to beat Barrett. It took at fat domestic journeyman and a decent prospect to destroy Williams.


    They're not classed as big wins because it's relative. I class Tyson Fury's wins over Scott Belshaw and Marcel Zeller as well as stopping Daniil Peretyatko as "big" because of where he was and is in his career. If he does move up to world title level they're no longer be big... they'll be what was expected. His two wins over McDermott are huge for him right now... but again, move him to world level and it will just be him beating a domestic contender... nothing too special.

    For Chisora the Sexton wins are big because they're one prospect beating another, made better because Sexton has some legitimacy to him because of his wins over Rogan. But stepping up to the world level? As much as I like him, Sexton isn't exactly some feared world class fighter where getting a win over him means a lot. Sexton has 4 wins worth a damn... Rogan x 2 (great win for him), Chris Burton (an OK domestic prospect) and Pele Reed (a low level contender who hasn't picked up a real scalp since 1998 and lost all his "step up" bouts). The fighters I mentioned all have depth to their records... either beating fellow prospects, slightly faded vets or, at the very least, being competitive in their bouts with top opposition. While Mamuka Jikurashvili may be a McNeely record holder the rest have something more to them... and I'd say more than Sexton.

    I mean, I like the fact that someone in the US thinks that beating domestic UK heavyweights makes someone a factor on the world scene... it means UK boxing is getting some of the respect I think it deserves (for all our sins we do generally match our fighters up with each other)... I just don't agree.

    That's not fair damnit! I've got 19 pages worth of essays to write on this and you go and start acting all reasonably! Don't you know that on Sherdog MY opinion = fact and YOUR opinion = trolling?

    :icon_lol:

    Let me leave with this. If this fight does happen Wlad's opponents since winning the bout look like this:

    Sam Peter: Former world champion who dropped Wlad 3 times in their first bout. After a poor spell now back in the sort of shape that brought him his most success.

    Eddie Chambers: Highly hyped US fighter who did a good job of virtually clearing out the prospect/contender pool. Some great wins and recovered from a loss to Povetkin to take out former champ Peter and humilate undefeated "next big thing" Dimitrenko who (stylistically if not skill level wise) is similar to Wlad.

    Ruslan Chagaev: Undefeated former WBA champ... didn't lose the belt in the ring. Ended Valuev's attempt to break Marciano's record and beat awkward perennial contender John Ruiz.

    Hasim Rahman: (Not that great) Former undisputed HW champ of the world recovered from a terrible 2001-3 to put together a decent run between 2004-6 which gave him a world title and some solid wins. An upset loss to Chagaev cost him the belt but had bounced back with a series of wins over journeymen and a controversial NC with Toney.

    Tony Thompson (who I should have actually put on my list of people Wlad should face... although the fact it's a rematch doesn't help): Tough fighter who in the previous 2 years had derailed multiple world ranked prospects/contenders: Guinn, Ibragimov, Krasniqi. Undefeated in nearly 8 years.

    Sultan Ibragimov: Undefeated WBO champion. Had ended Holyfields dream (we thought) in a means nothing bout but prior to that had swept through a combination of veterans and prospects with the only blemish a draw with Ray Austin.

    Lamon Brewster: Former Klitscko conqueror and long time HW force. Suffered an upset at the hands of the White Wolf in a FOTY candidate due to an eye injury but prior to that had also run through a group of world ranked prospects, contenders.

    Ray Austin: Yeah... this one's not that great. Still had big wins over fellow prospects Owen Beck and Jo-el Scott and draws with some other notable fighters.

    Calvin Brock: Undefeated challenger who had beaten a host of US and Eastern European contenders and prospects including McCline and Etienne and putting the first loss on Timur Ibragimov's record.

    Does

    Derek Chisora: UK domestic champion who retired Danny Williams and has two wins against fellow rated prospect Sam Sexton.

    Really fit in?
     
  11. ThirdPartyView Keeping Jack Dempsey from ducking

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    I don't disagree that Chisora fighting Klitschko wouldn't really fit in that list of challengers, but I would say it's a result of him and Vitali cleaning up HW (besides a few guys who have turned down the fight (for now)) and not him taking on a lesser guy despite a better level of opponents available right now.
     
  12. Lazy Man Heavyweight Champion of the World

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    Why do you keep bringing up Solis? He and Adamek have fights scheduled.
     
  13. consortium11 Slip The Jab

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    Because when fighters are offered a shot at the HW title they tend to have a habit of dropping their current bout commitments. Sos did it for Vitali and I see no reason Solis wouldn't do it for Wlad.
     
  14. Lazy Man Heavyweight Champion of the World

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    Yeah that's fair. I don't know if Solis actually would do it... I don't know if they want to fight him, but they definitely should have made an offer...

    I guess Dimitrenko is next in line (according to the ESPN article I read) if the Chisora fight falls through.
     

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