CHARLEY BURLEY: Analyzing a Genius

[HeavyMetalNinja]

Man, thank god for this thread. I kinda stopped checking in on this forum because of all the TKD/Akido/useless crap threads that were flooding the discussions. This one is a breath of fresh air.
Best video I've ever seen on technique, and great follow up discussion, very interesting.

Thanks you!

 

[Sinister]

question-

how much is it there not being enough trainers who know what to teach and how to teach it; an how much of it is the fault of the promoters, who want to get a kid out there and maximize their earnings. Or the fault of a fighter who either a)is so limited he can't develop the skills fast enough to be competitve OR worse yet said boxer has already reached a certain level of success and isn't willing to take direction, instead seeking to get rid of said trainer.

part of doing something is having faith in it and in alot of cases if a boxer isn't buying what your selling, that boxer won't execute as well, cus he has no faith and no will to do so. Its the same w/a system in football or baseball or basketball etc; people will stick w/what they feel comfortable w/moreso than what is new or unfamiliart, i always thought part of the reason hopkins developed like he did is due to his limited b/g and the fact he lost his first fight and because he never had great phys ability, he had no choice but to get better an learn every trick. He wasn't good enough to fight any other way, unlike a de la hoya or roy jones jr or vic darchivyan or malignaggi and so on..etc All of whom had alot of success and had exceptional ability.

It's a combination of all those things. But you're wrong about Hopkins. You don't get to be at this level of the game at his age without being physically gifted, regardless of how good you are.

 

[Fierce0virus]

wow, i learned alot

 

[Seppuku Sam]

I enjoyed the video....it was very well put together. I would like to learn how to do things like that. The instruction was fine for BOXING. MMA is not boxing. MMA is not Boxing + Wrestling, either. When you take pure boxing and add kicks, the equation changes. Add takedown and it changes again. Add submissions and/or GnP following a takedown and it changes again. While useful, the boxing centric approach is not the optimal striking system for todays MMA arena.

 

[Sinister]

I think that is proving less and less true as time goes on. That was the mentality 5+ years ago, but a lot of guys are learning that MMA is not wrestling, MMA is not Jiu Jitsu, MMA is not wrestling or Jiu Jitsu + punches/kicks. And that if you learn how to properly defend yourself from punches, and punch properly, while being mindful of all other aspects, it's not detrimental.

 

[devante]

I enjoyed the video....it was very well put together. I would like to learn how to do things like that. The instruction was fine for BOXING. MMA is not boxing. MMA is not Boxing + Wrestling, either. When you take pure boxing and add kicks, the equation changes. Add takedown and it changes again. Add submissions and/or GnP following a takedown and it changes again. While useful, the boxing centric approach is not the optimal striking system for todays MMA arena.

to learn how to mix all the things together effectively or use an art effectively you have to work on it individually; train boxing w/boxers, bjj w/bjjers, wrestling w/wrestlers and so on. That way you understand the fundamental skills and strategies in a vacuum; then you go to you mma school and gym where they teach you how to tailor it to the environment which is mma.

people used to say bobbing and weaving doesn't work, body punching doesn't work, the jab doesn't work or boxig footwork doesn't work; all of which have been proven false by guys who weren't even legits/ranked amateur or pro boxers. Couture evans noguiera (the exception) pulver gomi penn edgar florian and so on; so few guys in mma still know how to box, that if you have dedicated yourself to it you can and will have a huge adv.

as jens pulver said-most guys in mma don't get how tough and complicated boxing is, they go to the mma gym and hit pads and beat up on mma guys; the reason their not able to use it is because their foundation for boxing isn't that good, which limits their ability to effectively apply it in mma.

 

[Jubacat]

Those are great clips.

Edit: After rewatching that first clip, several times, I am amazed at how easy he made everything look.

(The first MMA equivalent which came to mind is when Anderson and Forrest fought)

 

[chino0503]

I enjoyed the video....it was very well put together. I would like to learn how to do things like that. The instruction was fine for BOXING. MMA is not boxing. MMA is not Boxing + Wrestling, either. When you take pure boxing and add kicks, the equation changes. Add takedown and it changes again. Add submissions and/or GnP following a takedown and it changes again. While useful, the boxing centric approach is not the optimal striking system for todays MMA arena.

...... what a fool

look man.... according to YOUR LOGIC..... bjjj isnt mma.... muay thai isnt mma.... wrestling isnt mma..... WHY DO YOU SINGLE OUT BOXING?

its 'MIXED' martial arts.... if you wanna learn how to fight off your back... you're not gonna train your ass off with wrestling.... if you wanna get better at takedowns.... you're not gonna work on your guard. does that shit make sense?

if you wanna get better at punching..... YOU DONT TRAIN MUAY THAI!!! you train boxing.

only a god damn fool would think using boxing techniques will get your taken down and ground and pounded.... if anything.... throwing kicks will get you taken down.

 

[chino0503]

fucking add punching to bjj and its gonna change what you do.... NO SHIT!

add takedowns and hip tosses to muay thai and its gonna change what you do.... NO SHIT!

add kicks and submission to boxing and its gonna change what you do.... NO SHIT!!

does it stop you from training straight muay thai? no.... does it stop you from training straight bjj? no.....

does it stop you from training straight boxing? YES.....?!?! why?!?! CAUSE YOU CANT BOX?!

 

[chino0503]

hell do you even know what the hell "MIXED" martial arts means?

anyways... this thread open my eyes to how bad ass these boxers from the 40's, 50's, and 60's were.... growing up in those times must of been good for a boxing fan.

 

[Sinister]

Dude, chino, calmate. lol

 

[Soul Rebel 2]

I enjoyed the video....it was very well put together. I would like to learn how to do things like that. The instruction was fine for BOXING. MMA is not boxing. MMA is not Boxing + Wrestling, either. When you take pure boxing and add kicks, the equation changes. Add takedown and it changes again. Add submissions and/or GnP following a takedown and it changes again. While useful, the boxing centric approach is not the optimal striking system for todays MMA arena.

Boxing might not include kicks, knees and elbows like muay thai but there is endless crossover appeal to any striker. In fact, the evasive movements taught in boxing particularly footwork and subtle head movement are extremely valuable to mixed martial artists due to the smaller gloves making it dangerous to stand and bang like a Nak Muay. Yes, its true that head movement can get you KTFO but the point isn't to move like James Toney or Tyson or Mayweather. Plus, avoiding head movement because it can get you kicked or kneed is like saying that you cant jab in boxing because you'll get countered with a right hand.

 

[chino0503]

yeah i know... i get carried away. when people say things like "training boxing will get you kicked in the head in mma".... its just plain retarded. well training muay thai will get you punched in the head... or training bjj will get you taken down and layed on.... or training wrestling will get you submitted.....

whatever. dont wanna hijack this REFRESHING THREAD..... talking about tkd, jkd, and fucking aikido isnt my cup of tea.

 

[Sinister]

It's all good. I wanted to make a point in this thread, though. The video used De La Hoya as an example of the modern, more square, more upright stance, but he wasn't the only guy who did it well. Check out anything from Tito Trinidad, too. A lot of these guys had big power, so they could get away with getting roughed up a little bit to land their trademark shots. In fact, that's what happened when De La Hoya and Trinidad fought each other, booth floored each other with their trademark left hooks. Trinidad had an even more frontal stance than DLH. Michael Carbajal is another one, and went through the same Amateur program as DLH. One of the more frontal Fighters I've ever seen, but if he hit you, he got you out of there. That said, his stance and lack of lateral movement is exactly why he lost 2 out of 3 to Chiquita. All of these Fights are on Youtube I believe.

 

[welts]

Is there a reason other than the technique/teaching being 'lost' that the classic stance is no longer used much?

I appreciate there are +/- to both but if this stance is as good as it seems, why does it not get utilised more?

People talk about what works and what doesnt work in mma. The truth is we have never seen a High level boxer with enough take down defence take a foot into the octagon. The closest fighter is BJ Penn whos boxing could probably couldnt get him further than a mid level boxer?

I am not insulting the skill or dedication in mma. But for once i would just love to see a really high end boxer take a step into the octagon with some legit take down defense.The money in boxing is too good for most boxers to want to try and make the jump. But maybe one day things will change.

I think the whole 'bobbing gets you kneed' argument has been uttered to death, when really those things would just need minor adjustments for MMA. It would need to be more subtle. I think giorgio petrosyan is a great example of this. (though he fights MT and now K-1 instead) He is a fantasticly gifted fighter who takes more of a boxing approach to his MT. I dont mean just using hands but head movement etc.

The hands are the most functional weapons the body has. Any one who considers themselves a fighter would know that. I would love to learn more about boxing and train it. Just everytime i try the enviroment is full of annoying chav kids from the council estates and rude obnoxious instructors.

 

[Sinister]

The reasons the classical stance and positioning isn't seen much have been stated, lack of educated trainers, as well as an emergence of Fighters who didn't really need it to be great per se, because they had equalizing power to make up for their lack of technique in certain areas. That's the same thing that's going on in MMA as far as throwing hands goes.

 

[panamaican]

The reasons the classical stance and positioning isn't seen much have been stated, lack of educated trainers, as well as an emergence of Fighters who didn't really need it to be great per se, because they had equalizing power to make up for their lack of technique in certain areas. That's the same thing that's going on in MMA as far as throwing hands goes.

Sinister,

One of the quotes in the first video is by J.G. Bohum Lynch. Have you (or anyone you know) read his book "The Complete Boxer" and would it be recommended?

 

[ambertch]

Is there a reason other than the technique/teaching being 'lost' that the classic stance is no longer used much?

I appreciate there are +/- to both but if this stance is as good as it seems, why does it not get utilised more?

eh you know the same thing happens everywhere. Styles change because fashions change, just like tastes in music and clothing change. Doesn't necessarily mean anything caused it, it just naturally happens.

You look at BJJ, it keeps changing too. But there are always guys who keep it old school and smash everyone with classical techniques and positioning. (in this case Rickson Gracie would be the jiujitsu equivalent of Charley Burley and Roger Gracie would be Benard Hopkins)

 

[ambertch]

my coach uses the stance and strategy described in this video to a T (including upjabs from all angles and setting up the four attack vectors in a methodical, tactical fashion) and I've tried to emulate him to absolutely no success.

This stance really requires mastery of the basics to the kind of extent that just isn't possible for guys who start boxing later in life...

The mastery of distancing and timing - unless your name is Bernard Hopkins you need to have that shit ingrained in you as a LITTLE KID (ala PBF) to have that kind of skill.

 

[Sinister]

One of the quotes in the first video is by J.G. Bohum Lynch. Have you (or anyone you know) read his book "The Complete Boxer" and would it be recommended?

I've not read it.