CHARLEY BURLEY: Analyzing a Genius

[Nagel]

A friend of mine created this exhilarating video on Charley Burley:

 

[Varth]

Tell your friend his work is excellent. Great video. It's an instructional of principles basically which is the most important thing and what most people lack. A thousand times better than every other instructional I saw.

 

[Sinister]

Burley is one of my all-time favorite Fighters. Even the rare film that exists on him shows technical brilliance, and that's a fat Burley against a Light Heavyweight Contender (it's on youtube, just search for Charley Burley and it's the only stuff that comes up).

Also I think he did something crazy like worked a full shift at a factory before that bout. Had Boxing not been so political back then (yes even moreso than now), we'd have seen Robinson vs. someone who was his match. If I could open up the universe and ask for anything in this Sport, it would have been to see the bouts he fought against Holman Williams (also BRILLIANT, and obscure) and Archie Moore. When Moore calls someone the finest Fighter he's ever seen, that guy is worth seeing.

 

[chino0503]

holy shit!!! thanks for the brain food!!!

 

[phenomadon7]

very nice indeed!!!

 

[panamaican]

Great video! Thank you for teaching me something new.

 

[Win]

That was simply amazing.

 

[welts]

Genuinely insightful.

A great look into the finer niche's of boxing. Awesome.

In fact i think i will use this video as a demonstration to friends who don't appreciate the skills and philosophies used in combat sports.

 

[Nagel]

Billy Smith was no slouch either, he fought Moore to a draw and ko'd Loyd Marshal in his bouts prior to this. It's just a testament to how good Burley really was.

On any given day, Burley was a master of the ring seeking out opponents beyond his weight class such as Billy Smith who had about 16 lbs on him.

Also I think he did something crazy like worked a full shift at a factory before that bout.

I think that was when he fought Archie Moore, although a friend tells me a rumor that Charley Burley carried Smith in this fight. We can only speculate, but we know that boxing was half politics.

I'm sure if we had a time machine, we'd selfishly use it watch old boxing matches. :icon_chee We'd also see the fighters that made up the Black Murderer's row. Burley's fights with Moore, Holman Williams, and Ezzard Charles, it would have been to die for.

 

[Boxer123]

Wow beautiful vid, really enjoyed it.

 

[Sinister]

Billy Smith was no slouch either, he fought Moore to a draw and ko'd Loyd Marshal in his bouts prior to this. It's just a testament to how good Burley really was.

On any given day, Burley was a master of the ring seeking out opponents beyond his weight class such as Billy Smith who had about 16 lbs on him.

I think that was when he fought Archie Moore, although a friend tells me a rumor that Charley Burley carried Smith in this fight. We can only speculate, but we know that boxing was half politics.

I'm sure if we had a time machine, we'd selfishly use it watch old boxing matches. :icon_chee We'd also see the fighters that made up the Black Murderer's row. Burley's fights with Moore, Holman Williams, and Ezzard Charles, it would have been to die for.

I think you're right about him working the full shift before the Moore Fight, which makes it even more impressive. Work a full day, punch your clock, go whoop Archie fuckin' Moore in a fistfight. It really sucks that there's almost zero footage in existence on Holman, because he was at least Burley's equal, proven so in the ring.

Now, onto the footage, I didn't get a chance to watch it all last night. But it's ironical that just in another thread yesterday I made the point that I don't feel the lead-hand uppercut is that dangerous of a punch to attempt if thrown correctly, and here's Burley demonstrating exactly that at the 6 minute mark or so. Also, Nagel I'm sure you know this, but being as Mike was trained by Futch, and I am trained by Mike...it took me a really long time to understand the application of the classical stance demonstrated in this footage. In the thread about "sparring partner syndrome" I keep consistently mentioning self-defense, and this stance explanation is part of my point. Charley could defend himself, without having to try to. So it made for two things, one is that he was always the boss in there unless you were as good as he was, two is that he didn't have to worry much about what would happen to him if he attacked. The modern stance, and MMA Fighters when they have a tendency to square up, can only attack, attack, attack...and in order to defend themselves have to abandon their mind-sets and do something foreign to them. This is no good.

Mike is always on us to be cognizant of return-fire AS we're punching, not to separate offense from defense. And if you remember, Futch's Fighters that actually went the furthest (Arguello aside, Arguello mastered parrying, which few Boxers can do as excellently as he did), used that adapted classical stance.

Kenny Norton:

Joe Frazier:

And here in this picture (which I've often posted as comical because it looks like Mike is trying to explain something complicated to a blockhead), notice Mike's hand-positioning:

Same stance. And Mike is telling me there to be alert, and look for punches coming back at me, and to slip them in a subtle manner to be in position to return fire.

And let me tell you, this shit works:

But it also works the other way. I've posted this picture of me getting smashed before, but really look at Junior's body positioning and think of guys like Hopkins and Burley (and even Toney):

Junior just happens to be the guy Mike first trained, and has a reputation for clowning around, until someone tries to kick his ass. Among the names of people he's knocked out in the Gym for that are guys like Duncan Dokiwari (back when he was worth something), Jim Strohl, and others.

 

[Sinister]

Also, before anyone gets any funny ideas about Frazier, Norton, and Junior all having one hand low, don't think guys like Eddie Futch and Mike McCallum don't think of that. You try to attack that point, you catch a rear-hand uppercut to the ribs, which is no fun at all. Or they were (and Junior IS) skilled at tossing an uppercut that'll slice right up from underneath, and you'll never see it. That's how an uppercut is supposed to be thrown. Look at the photo of Junior. If he tosses a left uppercut right after that straight right, I'm toast.

 

[Capt.Canuck]

Great video, thanks for posting.

 

[Sinister]

Hey Nagel, another thing I was going to point out that strikes me as particularly interesting is how if one traces back far enough, eventually a lot of these men connect to each other. Mike was trained by Futch, who trained two of the men who beat Ali (in Norton and Frazier). Which BTW, Ali goes back to the Cubans, particularly Feo Rodriguez and Gavilan, who he saw as a youngster with Dundee, but I've always noticed that Dundee didn't enhance the techniques of any of them...he was more of the early cheerleader style trainer as opposed to a strategist, which is a good indication of why Ali, left to his own devices, would struggle with men trained to beat his style.

Anyhow, this footage is on Burley, whose highest compliments come from Archie Moore. And a young Foreman beat up on both Frazier and Norton. I find it no coincidence that two of the men behind young Foreman just happened to be Archie Moore, and another guy who makes a cameo in that footage, Sandy Saddler.

Great chess game went on there behind the bouts, between minds like Futch, Saddler, Moore, etc.

 

[Nagel]

The methods to this style are scarcely taught anymore. In a way, you, yourself through being coached by Mike McCallum, is connected to the great fighters before you. The techniques that worked with them are still applicable now.

Stance is so fundamental, it's integral for successful offense and defense. With fighters such as Burley, offense and defense are interwoven, and much of it stems from how you stand. McCallum had that too, he didn't have to move very much to nullify his opponent's leads. Here's something fun to read that James Toney said in an interview:

"He (McCallum) was right there in front of me, but I had a hard time hitting him with clean punches. I basically came into my own by fighting him. I learned how to be elusive without running around the ring by fighting Mike McCallum three times."

In their first fight, I thought that Mike needed more movement as he was mixing it up with Toney a little too much. Although, it looked like this was on Mike/Futch's mind in the following fights with Toney.

Also, before anyone gets any funny ideas about Frazier, Norton, and Junior all having one hand low, don't think guys like Eddie Futch and Mike McCallum don't think of that. You try to attack that point, you catch a rear-hand uppercut to the ribs, which is no fun at all. Or they were (and Junior IS) skilled at tossing an uppercut that'll slice right up from underneath, and you'll never see it. That's how an uppercut is supposed to be thrown. Look at the photo of Junior. If he tosses a left uppercut right after that straight right, I'm toast.

That's what makes it harder; it's expected, and they're prepared for it. I think that's when counter punching, angles, and line-of-sight are really needed.

P.S. Here's the link to the full James Toney interview that the quote is from: James Toney: The Best I Faced - The Cyber Boxing Zone Message Board

 

[Sinister]

In that thread about sparring partner syndrome I mentioned Mike's side of why he thought that first Fight got away from him in the middle rounds, to put it shortly "I didn't listen to Eddie."

This is definitely what I miss about those days of this Sport. When the education was necessary, whereas nowadays if you have a little pop and some charisma (as well as a sob-story), you can have an 8-figure career. Rather, it's no-longer about how a trainer educates a young man on the finer nuances of pugilism, and sending him in against the better opponents of the day...but who can we make the most cash off of the fastest (see: Victor Ortiz)?

If any of you guys reading this who use your hands to Fight in any way pick up on even a couple of these principals, you'll notice pretty quickly how distinctly better of a class you'll be in as opposed to those around you.

P.S. - Nagel, if you ever know anyone in the game who'd want to interview Mike or what have you, it's very do-able. He's very fond of being remembered and consulted.

 

[Nagel]

Thanks, Liu. I don't know of anyone right now, but that's very generous. I'll definitely consider it.

Anyway, here's an Ezzard Charles video made by the same person:

 

[Snubnoze707]

Who else read the title as Charles Barkley?

 

[yodsaenkla**]

Awesome thread.

From a technical standpoint what do people think of the side on stance with more weight on the back leg effectively making you more upright? Similar to the stance machida uses in mma.

 

[fightingrabbit]

Awesome thread.

From a technical standpoint what do people think of the side on stance with more weight on the back leg effectively making you more upright? Similar to the stance machida uses in mma.

Machidas stance looks heavily influenced by his TKD roots. Works well for him in MMA. But just to note, i noticed that he stands so sideways that hes only limited to his straight left.

Boxers use a side stance also, or a 'slanted' stance. I read about this boxing stance once in a thread the TS made. So when i started boxing, i applied all of its principles during training and sparring, and i saw the light. IMO It really is the most technically sound boxers stance. I know it sounds like some cheesy testimonial. But its no BS. Its science. Lots of great Boxers fought out of a slanted stance. Counter-hitters like Jersey Joe and Toney. Rough and tumblers like Marciano and Lamotta. Boxer/Punchers like Ray Robinson and Louis.

Each of them didnt exactly have the same stance, but they each adopted the same way of bending their head and torso off center, slightly out of the way of incoming jabs. To adopt this way of carrying your body and hands was to defend yourself without actually defending.