International Centenary: Chinese Communist Party (1921-2021)

[Legicato]

hio Legicato,

of course. its all about self interest. we do big trade with all sorts of folks who don't exactly line up with our own belief system. we're in up to our ears with the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, lol.

its just about business.

two decades ago China had the third biggest economy on the planet. maybe you and i define the term "midget" differently. bud.<45>

- IGIT

Never said it wasn't, does not change the fact China still is the enemy of the world.

That's about the same spot as the German economy was in the 1930s bud, you labeled it as midget.

 

[IGIT]

Never said it wasn't, does not change the fact China still is the enemy of the world.

That's about the same spot as the German economy was in the 1930s bud, you labeled it as midget.

hio Legicato,

China can be the enemy of the world, if you insist - as long as they remain our trading partner and allow US corporations expanded access to their rapidly growing market and highly trained (but underpaid, by US standards) workforce.

as to germany, please my friend. just stop. we're talking trade as it relates to geopolitical power (or least that's what i'm talking about); Germany was a giant zero on the world stage, as far as trade goes. unless Mr. Hitler needed a particular raw material for Speer's industrial goals, Adolf avoided foreign trade.

China is the opposite. they love foreign investment. they love trade. they bask in it. and all the nations of the world want in.

i get that Nazi's are very bad people, though, and the height of villainy.

*salutes*

- IGIT

 

[Deorum]

He got Dubs because he criticized president Xi in another thread he needs to balance the score.

Weren't you the guy asking me how to get a Chinese girlfriend? Way to stab me in the back man. I've been nothing but nice to you.

 

[Deorum]

Xi is running the country as a dictator and I don't approve of it at all. Its one of the main reasons I left after a decade of living there but you bet I'm still going to defend that country against endless smears. When China is wrong I'll call them out but when they do something great I'll give them praise just like any other country on the planet. But it hurts to see so many lies from western media that seem to be centered around gaining support for war. China does a lot of wrong but they've also helped their citizens in many ways that even America fails to do. I just can't get on the hate train. I hope that one day they do go to a democratic form of government but it shouldn't be our job to force that. When Chinese are tired of it they'll rise up on their own and if they don't maybe they deserve whatever is coming. I'm done with being the world police though, that's for damn sure

Once Xi made himself dictator for life the gloves all should have come off in every nation opposed to their human rights abuses and predatory lending/business practices, IMHO, but it's too easy to scare people with exaggerated claims about damage to the economy.

But now that power is concentrated in Xi's hands, he gives zero fucks and will do whatever he wants and ignore any outcry. That's incredibly dangerous.

Xi's got the ability to create and fold agencies at the snap of his fingers; can launch policies without any consensus, process or safeguards and he's actually been damn close to flawless on everything from economic reform and infrastructure development to 'anti-corruption' (purging political adversaries) and poverty eradication to military capabilities and scientific advancement.

His tenure thus far has been ultra-competent, and there's good reason the amendment that put him on equal footing with Chairman Mao got 99.8% approval (2,959 votes out of 2,964) from the party. He is the most powerful man in the world when taking into consideration the geopolitical, economic, technological and military clout of the country he runs.

 

[JbModest]

You comparing North Korea to China is absurd. One country starves their people while one has continually improved the lives of its citizens.

Even the TS acknowledges that. In fact, its a pretty fair analysis versus what is usually on this site.

The people of Hong Kong would disagree with you.

 

[Deorum]

You're either submit completely to China or treat them as an enemy. There is no middle ground.

The middle ground is economic interdependence, and unfortunately it means the CCP issue can't be treated like a zero sum game in the same way the Soviet Union was. Doubly troublesome considering China is leaps and bounds more formidable than the USSR ever was. It makes this a great thing, but for how long is such a decisive edge maintained? Dunno, because nobody here will talk to me about it. <45>

 

[ShinkanPo]

The people of Hong Kong would disagree with you.

I would highly appreciate it if China stop putting activists in Hong Kong in jail

 

[ShinkanPo]

The middle ground is economic interdependence, and unfortunately it means the CCP issue can't be treated like a zero sum game in the same way the Soviet Union was. Doubly troublesome considering China is leaps and bounds more formidable than the USSR ever was. It makes this a great thing, but for how long is such a decisive edge maintained? Dunno, because nobody here will talk to me about it. <45>

Cant treat China as USSR

Yeah I think the pussy is out of the bag right now.

Besides there are different geo political considerations at play,different history and geography.

China Militarily at this I think still does not poses a huge military threat to Europe compared to USSR post WW2.

I am not sure about the ecconomic ties between pre war western Europe and Soviet as far as I know not that great and there is no growing interdependence.

Unlike China who sells and buys tons of stuff from the west.

I think this is what @IGIT is pointing out.

 

[TheGreatA]

Mao gave the West a couple of extra decades to entertain delusions about their superiority.

Just imagine where we would be, if a figure such as Deng or Liu had risen to the highest position of authority by the 1960's, prior to the "Cultural Revolution".

 

[Deorum]

Cant treat China as USSR

Yeah I think the pussy is out of the bag right now.

Besides there are different geo political considerations at play,different history and geography.

China Militarily at this I think still does not poses a huge military threat to Europe compared to USSR post WW2.

I am not sure about the ecconomic ties between pre war western Europe and Soviet as far as I know not that great and there is no growing interdependence.

Unlike China who sells and buys tons of stuff from the west.

I think this is what @IGIT is pointing out.

I believe @IGIT is of Han descent but a proud American citizen nonetheless. I vaguely remember him talking about family members who were scientists at Merck, which I thought was pretty major. He's well informed, pragmatic and reasonable on the whole IMO.

 

[SanchoMF]

It’s a sad sad situation.
So many leaders in CCP’s pockets, so many corporates ready to sell their mothers to get an access to China’s market and nearly the same amount to supply chains ready to reshuffle for China’s manufacturing benefit.
Nothing other than a ban will work.

 

[Goonerview]

China will be the strongest country in the world, but will still just be a regional power.

Once Pax Americana ends, I can’t see any country capable of filling their boots. The world will just become more regional, as opposed to global.

China’s strength lies in its unity. Diversity isn’t a strength.

 

[Deorum]

The people of Hong Kong would disagree with you.

I would highly appreciate it if China stop putting activists in Hong Kong in jail.

Damn Shame.

 

[ImCertainOfCirkunov]

You comparing North Korea to China is absurd. One country starves their people while one has continually improved the lives of its citizens.

Even the TS acknowledges that. In fact, its a pretty fair analysis versus what is usually on this site.

Oh yeah, nothing says "improving the lives of your citizens" like systematically killing off and destroying millions of them through genocide and forced labour camps. Or maybe we should talk about all the great things they have for the Tibetans over the years?

Basically, if you're one of the 100+ million non-Han Chinese citizens, the government does not even consider you a human being and they certainly have no interest in "improving your life".

Those are the facts, they are not up for debate.

 

[greenhawk]

I know Americans are freaked out that an Asian nation is about to end their hegemony & become #1 .But don't worry, China isn't exporting their political system to other nations like USSR did. As long as America minds its own business everything will be fine.
Also many live in the delusion that US can win a war vs China. There is no winning , it will be mutual destruction and end of Western civilization. So live and let live.

 

[Islam Imamate]

China isn't going away anytime soon but that doesn't mean we have to make it our enemy. It always seems to me that USA wants to force its ideology onto other countries. If they don't embrace democracy they are evil and need to be wiped off the map isn't a good approach. Everyone is mad at China for COVID-19 and rightfully so but I think its dangerous to keep using them as a boogeyman for every single problem in the world. I've lived in China for a decade and I learned that the people there mostly love what their government has done and very few people speak about USA the way Americans do about China. They seem to all agree that USA and China should try and be allies rather than enemies.

In before the cry babies tell me I worship the CCP for not wanting to escalate into a war.

Let's clarify this, the Han Chinese like what the government is doing. Now ask the Tibetans and Uighurs if they appreciate what the government has done for them.

To be clear I don't want war with China, that would terrible for not just the US and China but also the entire world since having the two largest economies in a globalized world smash into each other would have massive consequences for everyone else. But the CCP is pretty evil. Of course the point about their lifting people out of poverty is a fair one, they've done an amazing job on that end. But that program has now evolved to the point where it includes a campaign of cultural genocide and possible ethnic cleansing which is unequivocally evil. I do see them as the enemy, not one to be fought directly or even militarily at all but one to be resisted at every possible turn. Fook em is what I'm trying to say I guess.

 

[Zazen]

Oh yeah, nothing says "improving the lives of your citizens" like systematically killing off and destroying millions of them through genocide and forced labour camps. Or maybe we should talk about all the great things they have for the Tibetans over the years?

Basically, if you're one of the 100+ million non-Han Chinese citizens, the government does not even consider you a human being and they certainly have no interest in "improving your life".

Those are the facts, they are not up for debate.

Where are your facts then? Where is your proof they are murdering millions of people right now? And please dont say you meant the cultural revolution. I hear these claims all the time but nobody ever shows definitive proof that literal bodies are stacking up

 

[IGIT]

Mao gave the West a couple of extra decades to entertain delusions about their superiority.

Just imagine where we would be, if a figure such as Deng or Liu had risen to the highest position of authority by the 1960's, prior to the "Cultural Revolution".

good morning, TheGreatA,

ayup.

*ponders*

lots of times when talking to China bashing Americans, folks get hung up on the "Communist China" talking point. as in - communism is evil, hence China is corrupt and terrible and incompetent. the corollary to this talking point is that freedom is good, hence America is saintly and excellent and efficient.

it all seems a little simplistic, no?

what good is freedom if we use that freedom to pursue moronic ends? like, what good is freedom if we use that freedom to elect a swindling carnival barker to run the country? what good is freedom if that freedom is used to energetically spread the myth that the opposition party drinks the blood of infants? what good is freedom if that freedom is used to deny the most basic tenets of science (evolution anyone?)?

Communist China, circa 2021, isn't burdened with some of the unfortunate byproducts of American freedom...and Xi is not Donald Trump. Trump isn't fit to hold Xi Jinping's jock, lol.

the hardship Xi endured as youth during the cultural revolution is genuine. its authentic.

“I always had a stubborn streak and wouldn’t put up with being bullied,” Mr. Xi recalled in an interview in 2000, one of the few times he has spoken about his experience as a teenager in Beijing. “I riled the radicals, and they blamed me for everything that went wrong.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/25/world/asia/xi-jinping-china-cultural-revolution.html

he's a tough SOB, and on top of that, he's a pragmatist; Xi studied chemical engineering in college. a scientist, just like Angela Merkel.

*paces and muses*

if i had to choose between Xi and Donald to lead the the United the States, and i had the magical ability to shoehorn someone of Xi capabilities into our existing political structure, i'd take Xi in a heartbeat and send Trump to Beijing.

easy choice.

i'm not pro-communist or anything like that, but ya gotta call'm as you see'm.

- IGIT

 

[IGIT]

hello SanchoMF, good morning to you,

It’s a sad sad situation.
So many leaders in CCP’s pockets,

the CCP is easy to do business with, my friend. if ya do business with the US, we end up making demands on how you treat your workers and how you treat your environment. its a nuisance, lol. the USA tries to tell other countries how to govern when it does business with them.

China doesn't bother with any of that leftist liberal malarkey. they have one rule, "Don't say anything that embarrasses the CCP". that's it. otherwise, they allow you to govern as you please.

America is more difficult to do business with.

America is so difficult to do business with that America's own biggest corporations have choosen instead to shift its investment and manufacturing to China over the past few decades.

lol.

so many corporates ready to sell their mothers to get an access to China’s market and nearly the same amount to supply chains ready to reshuffle for China’s manufacturing benefit.

yep. Americans can't help themselves. i don't think its fair to blame ourselves, though. we're no different from the rest of the world. everyone wants in, as far as China goes.

Nothing other than a ban will work.

unfortunately, i agree.

the thing is, unless you get the rest of the planet to agree with the ban, American manufacturing is going to suffer a cardiac arrest, as far as its global competitiveness goes.

its too late.

it maybe was too late the moment Nixon went to China. the Chinese weren't going to remain this rustic farm folk, living in the stone ages, forever. that's not China.

it was definitely too late the moment President Clinton gave China "most favored nation status", and green lit China's acceptance into the WTO.

then the US walked away from any effort to reassert itself when it abandoned the TransPacific Parntership (thank you Bernie and thank you Donald) and left its trade partners twisting in the wind.

sooo....

....we are where we are.

- IGIT

 

[TheGreatA]

good morning, TheGreatA,

ayup.

*ponders*

lots of times when talking to China bashing Americans, folks get hung up on the "Communist China" talking point. as in - communism is evil, hence China is corrupt and terrible and incompetent. the corollary to this talking point is that freedom is good, hence America is saintly and excellent and efficient.

it all seems a little simplistic, no?

what good is freedom if we use that freedom to pursue moronic ends? like, what good is freedom if we use that freedom to elect a swindling carnival barker to run the country? what good is freedom if that freedom is used to energetically spread the myth that the opposition party drinks the blood of infants? what good is freedom if that freedom is used to deny the most basic tenets of science (evolution anyone?)?

Communist China, circa 2021, isn't burdened with some of the unfortunate byproducts of American freedom...and Xi is not Donald Trump. Trump isn't fit to hold Xi Jinping's jock, lol.

the hardship Xi endured as youth during the cultural revolution is genuine. its authentic.

“I always had a stubborn streak and wouldn’t put up with being bullied,” Mr. Xi recalled in an interview in 2000, one of the few times he has spoken about his experience as a teenager in Beijing. “I riled the radicals, and they blamed me for everything that went wrong.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/25/world/asia/xi-jinping-china-cultural-revolution.html

he's a tough SOB, and on top of that, he's a pragmatist; Xi studied chemical engineering in college. a scientist, just like Angela Merkel.

*paces and muses*

if i had to choose between Xi and Donald to lead the the United the States, and i had the magical ability to shoehorn someone of Xi capabilities into our existing political structure, i'd take Xi in a heartbeat and send Trump to Beijing.

easy choice.

i'm not pro-communist or anything like that, but ya gotta call'm as you see'm.

- IGIT

It depends on whether you wish for your country to play empire-building games or not. For sure, Jinping is a far more effective empire-builder than a Donald Trump. He might be more effective at it than any American leader since WW2-era times. If we are talking purely from the perspective of increasing the status of their respective nation as a global super-power.

However, I find an incompetent buffoon far easier to deal with than a competent tyrant. The former you can remove from power fairly easily, the latter you cannot, except by force.

I tend to believe that people who pursue moronic ends, would pursue them with or without the freedoms. If you had no freedom, you'd simply not have the freedom to pursue anything outside of those moronic ends. To expect that the state would suddenly turn into a fully optimized scientific technocracy where only facts and logic are obeyed, and falsehoods discredited, is probably wishful thinking. There's just as good of a chance that some guy who believes that his opposition drinks the blood of infants comes to exercise that authoritarian power, rather than someone who's completely rational, pragmatic and aligned with the realities. People who entertain notions of exercising authoritarian power, rarely give much thought to how things would be if the shoe was in the other foot, so to speak.

Let's face it, even Mr. Jinping is not without serious faults, which no Westerner could truly stand in favour of, if they lived under his rule. He has an irrational side to him, atleast from the Western perspective, a petty tyrant's way of dealing with any criticism headed in his direction. A Donald Trump sends angry tweets as a response to critique, Jinping sends people to concentration camps. Trump insults journalists shedding light on COVID, Jinping gives them prison sentences. And his reign will end, eventually. Who's to guarantee that the next guy in line is going to be as capable as he was? Who's to say that the next guy won't just be an incompetent fool with the same cruel streak as Jinping has, in other words, a leader with no redeeming qualities, not even Jinping's competence?

I prefer not to take the gamble of ending up with a Mao Zedong for life, compared to a Donald Trump for 4 years. Electing "for life" leaders is something that ought to be done only under a "worst case scenario", when stability in leadership is to be regarded as something of utmost importance.