International Centenary: Chinese Communist Party (1921-2021)

[Nihongi]

Gotra keep up that citizens score. You're doing a great job! Congrats on being allowed to ride the subway

 

[Trotsky]

North Koreas love the Kim dynasty too, doesn't mean they aren't evil.

The Chinese don't want allies, they want vassals

This is a silly analogy.

The Kim Dynasty has held back the North Korean people and their living standards. The CCP has overseen the largest improvements in quality of life in human history in terms of the amount of people pulled out of poverty. And that's why they still see broad support: they're supremely competent and technocratic. They're currently more effective in terms of economic development than any Western country.

The last two periods of the Kim dynasty have been classic hereditary monarchism. Like the Tsarist autocracy: absolutely zero institutional competence or popular input. They make Stalin seem like a technocrat.

 

[Andy Capp]

hiya Andy Capp,

the average Joe?

the average Joe will continue to live life as before, lol.

they won't do anything about it - because the average Joe doesn't care how China treats its citizens (just like the average Joe doesn't care about how Mohammed bin Salman, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, treats his citizens).

- IGIT

Hi IGIT, pleasure to see you, drop by the lounge thread some time and let us know how you're doing.

Yes; sadly, for most people such issues are too far removed from their daily journey of just getting through the rigors of life. For many, I can't say I blame them. Life is often hard enough for one's self that it leaves little room for empathy. But in general, I don't think it's empathy that is lacking, rather any belief in being able to effect meaningful change, hence my question. It's no good fretting over China if you're having trouble keeping the bills paid. Many just want to leave it to the billionaires to fight over.

 

[Andy Capp]

Yes for most people, hundreds of millions of people lifted out of poverty I'd consider a good thing. I don't know enough about Tibet to be fair, I've never visited there.

Like I said many times I'll call out China when they are clearly wrong. Its obvious that China is a hub for pandemics for example and I was shocked that they had the stupidity to open up wet markets again. They did claim to have banned wild animals but not sure about that.

But its pretty obvious that people have an agenda to hate on China as much as possible even when they don't have the facts. People throw around words like concentration camps for example on purpose to draw paralles with Nazi Germany. If it ever got to that level and we had definitive proof that yes countries should intervene. But currently I see this as Iraq: Chinese edition.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I argued against a lot of the misinformation being spread about China in the wake of the pandemic, and I don't give a flying fuck about race (literally), but their actions have been heinous and thoroughly documented. There is definitive proof of their genocide and detention of the Uighurs without cause. And no, I don't care that the ICC disagrees on a technicality.

Once Xi made himself dictator for life the gloves all should have come off in every nation opposed to their human rights abuses and predatory lending/business practices, IMHO, but it's too easy to scare people with exaggerated claims about damage to the economy.

 

[IGIT]

ahoy Mr. Capp,

Hi IGIT, pleasure to see you, drop by the lounge thread some time and let us know how you're doing.

its good to see you too, i hope you've have a good Holiday season.

Yes; sadly, for most people such issues are too far removed from their daily journey of just getting through the rigors of life. For many, I can't say I blame them. Life is often hard enough for one's self that it leaves little room for empathy.

my friend, you have a most charitable view of your fellow man. i salute you.

*muses*

i have no sense of folks living hard lives under any particular rigor. i get that COVID has interrupted things, but (broadly speaking), i don't get that sense that our lives have been so difficult that we'd not know of the horrors that China inflicts on its own people.

we know about it, lol.

as a matter of fact, the anti-china rhetoric has been ratcheted up so much that unearthing each and every monstrous facet of Xi's government has become a cottage industry here in the US.

we know.

we just don't care (too much).

But in general, I don't think it's empathy that is lacking, rather any belief in being able to effect meaningful change, hence my question. It's no good fretting over China if you're having trouble keeping the bills paid. Many just want to leave it to the billionaires to fight over.

again, i think you give your garden variety American too much credit. i think "concern for how China treats its ethnic/religious minorities" is way, way, way, way wayyyyyyyyyyy at the bottom of what Americans care about.

regarding the bolded, Andy, i think you may have it backwards. the only Americans who really complain out-loud about China have negligible net worth (like the well meaning citizens here in the War Room). billionaires want no part of this fight, lol.

actual business entities (Caterpillar, General Motors, Levi Strauss & Co., Apple, Disney Corp, the National Basketball Association, etc, etc, etc) and their shareholders understand that grousing about China is lunacy - its financial suicide - so they don't do it.

its really that simple.

- IGIT

 

[Zazen]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I argued against a lot of the misinformation being spread about China in the wake of the pandemic, and I don't give a flying fuck about race (literally), but their actions have been heinous and thoroughly documented. There is definitive proof of their genocide and detention of the Uighurs without cause. And no, I don't care that the ICC disagrees on a technicality.

Once Xi made himself dictator for life the gloves all should have come off in every nation opposed to their human rights abuses and predatory lending/business practices, IMHO, but it's too easy to scare people with exaggerated claims about damage to the economy.

Let's break this down then. How do you define genocide? Most people define it as mass killing in order to eliminate a group of people. Now let's say you extend this to cultural genocide which can be done through a number of ways.

Even with that more broad definition it still doesn't explain why there are plenty of muslim students in universities, muslim areas in most major cities, etc. I do wish Chinese could be more inclusive of these groups at times but to call it genocide is super far-fetched and like I said previously the only reason people use that term is to draw parralels to Nazi Germany so our government can dehumanize a new economic rival. If we have definitive proof of genocide I'd like to see it because so far its bullshit. It reeks of false intelligence in the same way we were lied to about Iraq having nuclear weapons.

Maybe you won't trust this source but Max Blumenthal who has been on Jimmy Dore a number of times also refutes this. I don't think this particular article is from him but it is attached to his journalist group. If gives some solid information arguing why this is probably nonsense.

https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/...ns-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/

 

[IGIT]

Let's break this down then. How do you define genocide? Most people define it as mass killing in order to eliminate a group of people. Now let's say you extend this to cultural genocide which can be done through a number of ways.

Even with that more broad definition it still doesn't explain why there are plenty of muslim students in universities, muslim areas in most major cities, etc. I do wish Chinese could be more inclusive of these groups at times but to call it genocide is super far-fetched and like I said previously the only reason people use that term is to draw parralels to Nazi Germany so our government can dehumanize a new economic rival. If we have definitive proof of genocide I'd like to see it because so far its bullshit. It reeks of false intelligence in the same way we were lied to about Iraq having nuclear weapons.

Maybe you won't trust this source but Max Blumenthal who has been on Jimmy Dore a number of times also refutes this. I don't think this particular article is from him but it is attached to his journalist group. If gives some solid information arguing why this is probably nonsense.

https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/...ns-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/

hiya Zazen,

its very good to meet you, i've enjoyed your posts.

i think that focusing on "genocide" or the re-education camps or Tibet or what-have-you kind of elides the central problem with China (from a human rights perspective); if you disagree - even non violently - with the decrees of Xi's government, its over for you.

its not much more complicated than that. if we were in China sitting around on our laptops blasting the government all day long, we'd end up in re-education camp in Xinjiang.

many Americans find this kind of thing frightening and abhorrent. the idea of government having the power to jail and silence dissent is distasteful to people in the United States.

*clears his throat*

that being said, i also think most Americans don't care how China's government treats its citizens, i really don't.

they're just scared of the coming eclipse of US economic power. its happening right before their eyes.

no one enjoys being told their time in the sun is ending, so we comfort ourselves with tales of how "China is evil".

- IGIT

 

[Andy Capp]

Let's break this down then. How do you define genocide? Most people define it as mass killing in order to eliminate a group of people. Now let's say you extend this to cultural genocide which can be done through a number of ways.

Even with that more broad definition it still doesn't explain why there are plenty of muslim students in universities, muslim areas in most major cities, etc. I do wish Chinese could be more inclusive of these groups at times but to call it genocide is super far-fetched and like I said previously the only reason people use that term is to draw parralels to Nazi Germany so our government can dehumanize a new economic rival. If we have definitive proof of genocide I'd like to see it because so far its bullshit. It reeks of false intelligence in the same way we were lied to about Iraq having nuclear weapons.

Maybe you won't trust this source but Max Blumenthal who has been on Jimmy Dore a number of times also refutes this. I don't think this particular article is from him but it is attached to his journalist group. If gives some solid information arguing why this is probably nonsense.

https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/...ns-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/

If the authors can actually provide evidence sufficient to cast doubt on the accusations, they should be testifying at the ICC. But that's not going to happen, is it? Because one of them is a politician from India and the other is a blogger. This is not convincing evidence. I'm already convinced China is the equivalent of a national criminal enterprise by Xi taking control for life. And it has nothing to do with fucking Nazis. Here's a source for you.
China has built 380 internment camps in Xinjiang, study finds

But again, Chinese human rights abuses are nothing new. But now that power is concentrated in Xi's hands, he gives zero fucks and will do whatever he wants and ignore any outcry. That's incredibly dangerous.

 

[Zazen]

If the authors can actually provide evidence sufficient to cast doubt on the accusations, they should be testifying at the ICC. But that's not going to happen, is it? Because one of them is a politician from India and the other is a blogger. This is not convincing evidence. I'm already convinced China is the equivalent of a national criminal enterprise by Xi taking control for life. And it has nothing to do with fucking Nazis. Here's a source for you.
China has built 380 internment camps in Xinjiang, study finds

But again, Chinese human rights abuses are nothing new. But now that power is concentrated in Xi's hands, he gives zero fucks and will do whatever he wants and ignore any outcry. That's incredibly dangerous.

You didn't really address my other points.

1. Why are Muslims even allowed to live their lifestyle all over China if there is a genocide? I've taught Muslim students, I've befriended them, I've visited countless Muslim quarters within major cities. I didn't see any cops raiding them and throwing them in buses.

2. How do you define genocide then? If they aren't wiping out all Muslims across China then why does the media use that term over and over again?

I don't think there is anyone denying China has reeducation camps. I have already said many times I'm against that because usually when you do that shit there are always innocent people involved that had nothing to do with terrorism. But I think to intentionally mislabel it as genocide and make exaggerated claims is nothing but a justification for future action against an economic rival that is most likely going to dethrone the USA as the world's economic superpower this decade. That's what this is all about in my opinion. If there were genocide going on I'm pretty sure they would have provided images of bodies mounted by now.

 

[Andy Capp]

You didn't really address my other points.

1. Why are Muslims even allowed to live their lifestyle all over China if there is a genocide? I've taught Muslim students, I've befriended them, I've visited countless Muslim quarters within major cities. I didn't see any cops raiding them and throwing them in buses.

2. How do you define genocide then? If they aren't wiping out all Muslims across China then why does the media use that term over and over again?

I don't think there is anyone denying China has reeducation camps. I have already said many times I'm against that because usually when you do that shit there are always innocent people involved that had nothing to do with terrorism. But I think to intentionally mislabel it as genocide and make exaggerated claims is nothing but a justification for future action against an economic rival that is most likely going to dethrone the USA as the world's economic superpower this decade. That's what this is all about in my opinion. If there were genocide going on I'm pretty sure they would have provided images of bodies mounted by now.

Uighurs may be Muslim but not all Muslims are Uighurs, or ending up in concentration reeducation camps. It's genocide if they're murdering or rounding up large numbers of one ethnic group and displacing those individuals from their ancestral homes with the goal, unstated or not, of destroying their cohesiveness as an ethnicity, physically and culturally. China is doing that. And as @IGIT pointed out, debating whether or not what China is doing meets the strict definition of genocide is a straw man because in any event their actions are indefensible. And I think you know that because he just explained it to you.

 

[S Class]

CCP sucks monkey balls.

 

[Alphafail]

herro Alphafail,

the Chinese government view the folks in Tibet as outlaws, since they refused to recognize the PRC.

*ponders*

i'd say they've treated the folks in Tibet as tenderly as Andrew Jackson treated native American indians.

American voters don't care about Tibet.
American corporations don't care about Tibet.
so...naturally, the US Government doesn't care much about Tibet.
Richard Gere cares about Tibet...but its not enough, you know?

i mean, we all just put our hands in our pockets, look the other way, and continue doing business with the Chinese - like the rest of the planet. its normal and accepted, Alphafail.

why do you care so much about Tibet? i'm curious. as far as foreign policy interests go, that's a pretty exotic hobby.

- IGIT

Just to make sure I not making a mistake, are you the person who made a thread about how the US leaving Afghanistan would be bad for women in that country a while ago?

To answer your question, I care as a fellow human being. Just because there is nothing I can I do about bad stuff happening around the world, doesn't mean I should pretend it doesn't happen, whether the US cares about it or not. In this case in particular, someone claimed the chinese government works to improve the lives of its citizens. That may be true for some, but they also actively work to make it worse for others, uighurs and tibetans being just examples.

Why do you care why I care?

 

[Legicato]

China isn't going away anytime soon but that doesn't mean we have to make it our enemy. It always seems to me that USA wants to force its ideology onto other countries. If they don't embrace democracy they are evil and need to be wiped off the map isn't a good approach. Everyone is mad at China for COVID-19 and rightfully so but I think its dangerous to keep using them as a boogeyman for every single problem in the world. I've lived in China for a decade and I learned that the people there mostly love what their government has done and very few people speak about USA the way Americans do about China. They seem to all agree that USA and China should try and be allies rather than enemies.

In before the cry babies tell me I worship the CCP for not wanting to escalate into a war.

You can spew moronic absolutes like wipe them out, but fact is they are the enemy of every other nation and person in the world not because we made them our enemy but because they see us all as their enemy.

Lol china as allies. Might as well go kiss a rattlesnake.

 

[IGIT]

hello hello, Alpha,

Just to make sure I not making a mistake, are you the person who made a thread about how the US leaving Afghanistan would be bad for women in that country a while ago?

yep. that's me.

as a Westerner, with my American sensibilities, yeah, i do feel sorry for those women. its back to the stone ages for them, i fear. to get a taste (a tiny one, at that) of freedom and the 21st century and then have it taken away by gunpoint and sword?

its a sad fate for them.

To answer your question, I care as a fellow human being. Just because there is nothing I can I do about bad stuff happening around the world, doesn't mean I should pretend it doesn't happen, whether the US cares about it or not.

i commend you. that's very honorable.

In this case in particular, someone claimed the chinese government works to improve the lives of its citizens. That may be true for some, but they also actively work to make it worse for others, uighurs and tibetans being just examples.

absolutely. there is no debating that.

Why do you care why I care?

idk? this is a forum where we exchange ideas and learn how one another thinks?

lol. you seem like an "okie dokie" poster, so i was just curious.

99.9999% of US voters would have zero ability to even elucidate what the conflict in Tibet is even over, you know? we all buy Chinese products, or happily invest in multinational corporations that are expanding their footprint in China...for the last four years, the only impression i've gotten from Americans is that we'd like China to buy more of our stuff.

generally speaking, its very rare that anyone on this forum starts a thread about an embattled and oppressed ethnic minority in any country. on top of that, i don't think i've ever seen a thread that sympathetically advocated for minority Muslims in any country ever, on this forum.

so i find the sudden concern for these issues curious, and i was wondering what the genesis of this concern happens to be.

*fistbump*

- IGIT

 

[IGIT]

You can spew moronic absolutes like wipe them out, but fact is they are the enemy of every other nation and person in the world not because we made them our enemy but because they see us all as their enemy.

Lol china as allies. Might as well go kiss a rattlesnake.

hello hello my good friend,

Australia, Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia, Japan, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, New Zealand, the Philippines, Singapore, Vietnam, Thailand and South Korea do not agree that China is the enemy of every nation. far from it, actually.

China and 14 other countries agreed Sunday to set up the world’s largest trading bloc, encompassing nearly a third of all economic activity, in a deal many in Asia are hoping will help hasten a recovery from the shocks of the pandemic.

The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, or RCEP, was signed virtually on Sunday on the sidelines of the annual summit of the 10-nation Association of Southeast Asian Nations. The United States is not a part of the new accord.
https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/...China-leads-Asia-into-biggest-free-trade-deal

interestingly, all these countries signed on to this deal knowing full well that its entirely silent on all the human rights issues.

- IGIT

 

[Day Drinking]

You comparing North Korea to China is absurd. One country starves their people while one has continually improved the lives of its citizens.

Even the TS acknowledges that. In fact, its a pretty fair analysis versus what is usually on this site.

Pretty sure alot of people starved in the great leap forward.

 

[Legicato]

hello hello my good friend,

Australia, Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia, Japan, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, New Zealand, the Philippines, Singapore, Vietnam, Thailand and South Korea do not agree that China is the enemy of every nation. far from it, actually.

China and 14 other countries agreed Sunday to set up the world’s largest trading bloc, encompassing nearly a third of all economic activity, in a deal many in Asia are hoping will help hasten a recovery from the shocks of the pandemic.

The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, or RCEP, was signed virtually on Sunday on the sidelines of the annual summit of the 10-nation Association of Southeast Asian Nations. The United States is not a part of the new accord.
https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/...China-leads-Asia-into-biggest-free-trade-deal

interestingly, all these countries signed on to this deal knowing full well that its entirely silent on all the human rights issues.

- IGIT

And ? in case you forgot everyone traded with the nazis. How'd that work out.

Nothing interesting about short term gains over long term consequences.

 

[IGIT]

And ? in case you forgot everyone traded with the nazis. How'd that work out.

Nothing interesting about short term gains over long term consequences.

hio there Legicato,

its not a very apt comparison, my friend. Germany in the 1930's was an economic midget. Hitler was trying to discourage foreign trade, lol. he had to maintain a few supply lines for raw materials, but that's it.

China is about to become the alpha dog of the planet, economically. everyone wants in.

General Motors wants in.

Lebron wants in.

Dana White wants in.

Disney wants in.

Agribusiness in the US wants in, big time.

i guess i'm saying that i don't get the feeling that Wall St agrees with you. i also get the feeling that Main St. doesn't agree with you.

*muses*

i do agree that China treats some of its citizens within its own country very poorly; its just that no one seems to care about these sorts of things; its got nothing to do with business.

- IGIT

 

[Legicato]

hio there Legicato,

its not a very apt comparison, my friend. Germany in the 1930's was an economic midget. Hitler was trying to discourage foreign trade, lol. he had to maintain a few supply chains for raw materials, but that's it.

China is about to become the alpha dog of the planet, economically. everyone wants in.

General Motors wants in.

Lebron wants in.

Dana White wants in.

Disney wants in.

Agribusiness in the US wants in, big time.

i guess i'm saying that i don't get the feeling that Wall St agrees with you. i also get the feeling that Main St. doesn't agree with you.

*muses*

i do agree that China treats some of its citizens within its own country very poorly; its just that no one seems to care about these sorts of things; its got nothing to do with business.

- IGIT

Its actually very apt, as you said no one cares how chinese are treated in china. Just like they didn't care about treatment of Jews in Germany.

China was economic midget few two decades ago. While Germany was the technological world leader and #1 economy in 1939, tell me what did they start the same year bud.

Lol yes Disney also had dealing with the nazis. Thanks for mentioning them, how truly apt the comparison really is.

 

[IGIT]

hio Legicato,

Its actually very apt, as you said no one cares how chinese are treated in china. Just like they didn't care about treatment of Jews in Germany.

of course. its all about self interest. we do big trade with all sorts of folks who don't exactly line up with our own belief system. we're in up to our ears with the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, lol.

its just about business.

China was economic midget few two decades ago. While Germany was the technological world leader and #1 economy in 1939, tell me what did they start the same year bud.

two decades ago China had the third biggest economy on the planet. maybe you and i define the term "midget" differently. bud.<45>

- IGIT