International Catalonia's Rebellion: 170,000 Spaniards in Madrid March Against Amnesty Plan for Catalan Secessionists

[Arkain2K]

 

[Arkain2K]

 

[Arkain2K]

 

[fijuviju]

Spain supported Kosovo being taken from Serbia, not sure why they have a problem with Catalonia leaving. The precedent has been set.

Spain didn't recognize Kosovo as independent state,but you are right,precedent has been set.Its funny to see USA,GB,Fr,Ger... appalled when someone else operate by their own methods.

 

[JDragon]

On Monday, the Catalan region Valle de Aran is considering independence from Catalonia.

All of this is such a farce. Remember the referendum only had a turnout of 43%. This whole thing seems like a coup against the silent majority of the Catalans.

 

[JDragon]

Spain supported Kosovo being taken from Serbia, not sure why they have a problem with Catalonia leaving. The precedent has been set.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2016&mm=05&dd=25&nav_id=98121

 

[Greoric]

On Monday, the Catalan region Valle de Aran is considering independence from Catalonia.

All of this is such a farce. Remember the referendum only had a turnout of 43%. This whole thing seems like a coup against the silent majority of the Catalans.

The assumption being those too apathetic to vote would vote to stay? How'd you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[Greoric]

Yup. Totally agree that was fucked up. That's why the need to get themselves another vote with official recognition.

They got the vote despite the interference from the counter party. That's less of a reason to have another one.

 

[Greoric]

I wouldnt know.

Although im not particularly opposed to an independence movement, im simply opposed to achieving it unilaterally.

Thus as long as the kidnapper objects to your freedom, you don't have a right to leave, yes?

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

The assumption being those too apathetic to vote would vote to stay? How'd you arrive at that conclusion?

polls prior to this whole thing flaring up again showed more than half didn't want to leave. There was a huge recent anti separation protest in the region too and there have been previously as well.

I'm half asleep here but are you comparing Catalonia's situation to being kidnapped in your other post ? Because they joined the unified spanish peoples under peaceful terms ie marriage pacts

 

[Greoric]

polls prior to this whole thing flaring up again showed more than half didn't want to leave. There was a huge recent anti separation protest in the region too and there have been previously as well.

I'm half asleep here but are you comparing Catalonia's situation to being kidnapped in your other post ? Because they joined the unified spanish peoples under peaceful terms ie marriage pacts

The actual vote said otherwise, and despite heavy efforts to "dis-incentivize" the secession voters.

Also, yes. A community wants to cede their association from a larger one, whom will not let them. That's coercion, and its blatantly unethical.

 

[Harmonica]

Also, yes. A community wants to cede their association from a larger one, whom will not let them. That's coercion, and its blatantly unethical.

Why stop with community? What if an individual wants to cede his association from community?

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

The actual vote said otherwise, and despite heavy efforts to "dis-incentivize" the secession voters.

Thats if you are to believe its true. The pro separatist have all the reason to skew things in their favor and it still leaves out the majority of the people who didn't even turn up. As i said previous polls showed the separatist are a minority.

And kidnapping is exactly what it is. A community wants to cede their association with a larger one,

A small fraction of said community does. Unfortunately for them the majority dictates the course of the community. It's hardly a kidnapping when considering that.

 

[Greoric]

Why stop with community? What if an individual wants to cede his association from community?

Absolutely. Why not? Why are we legitimizing any kind of forced association?

 

[Greoric]

Thats if you are to believe its true. The pro separatist have all the reason to skew things in their favor and it still leaves out the majority of the people who didn't even turn up. As i said previous polls showed the separatist are a minority.

A small fraction of said community does. Unfortunately for them the majority dictates the course of the community. It's hardly a kidnapping when considering that.

Right, well you can't count votes of people that didn't vote.... that's not how that works.

Are you making an argument against the legitimacy of a majority to dictate its will on the minority?

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Right, well you can't count votes of people that didn't vote.... that's not how that works.

Yet your perfectly willing to put the votes of pro separatist as the will of the entire region when there's nothing to indicate this as such. Alot of pro separatist voting for pro seperation only proves... wait for it... separatist wanna separate.

Are you making an argument against the legitimacy of a majority to dictate its will on the minority?

I'm making it for. The majority's will dictates the course. Theres no reason why a community should be forced to change due to the outcry of the peanut gallery.

The fact that you stated above that we should just give people free reign to disassociate themselves with whatever society they wish shows you don't understand the social and economic factors that present themselves if we gave any group their own little nation.

 

[Harmonica]

Absolutely. Why not? Why are we legitimizing any kind of forced association?

So I decide that community's laws no longer apply to me and that's it?

 

[Space]

good


Can somebody explain why the left which seems to be fundamentally opposed to movements which seek independence from supranational unions suddenly appears to be rather supportive of a separatist movement after throwing a tantrum over Brexit, though?
Or am I wrong? I though I saw several supportive articles in left-wing media and some lefty posters here being pro-independence.

Because the Catalans want to form a socialist feminist state.

Not joking:

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-10-06/inside-catalan-feminist-plan-upend-spanish-patriarchal-rule

Let them import lots of Muslim refugees, let socialism wreck their economy, and when they become another Venezuela we'll be able to point and laugh at Catalonia for being so dumb.

 

[aunshi189]

The actual vote said otherwise, and despite heavy efforts to "dis-incentivize" the secession voters.

Also, yes. A community wants to cede their association from a larger one, whom will not let them. That's coercion, and its blatantly unethical.

There was no 'actual vote'. People didn't participate in an illegal referendum. Democracy can't work when anyone can declare a vote anytime they like and use that to dictate to a majority of people.

I support Catalan's right to self determination (while thinking it's a bad idea for them) but they haven't gone about it in a legal or sensible way (equally Rajoy has acted like a twat throughout)

 

[Greoric]

So I decide that community's laws no longer apply to me and that's it?

I don't understand the question here, but to the extent you're not compelling someone else, yes. Of course. You're not ethically obligated to be coerced by the vote of a majority.