can you spot the pattern here?

[Dionysian]

Next to Big John, Herb is the most recognizable ref and is trusted by fans and fighters.

So they use him a lot in the big fights because he's earned it. They trust him.

You have it backwards: the UFC first and foremosts "trusts" him. He fixes fights for marketing stars over and over and over. "Best in the biz" tag spammed by the UFC on broadcasts is done for a logical reason and that reason was NOT because of his adherence to officiating rules.

Fans and fighters should definitely NOT trust him for shit because of his very clear pattern of officiating in a way to sway influential fights towards what the UFC wants. That of course is part of the purpose of UFC's "best in the biz" marketing of Herb though... they want to enable him to fix those fights by brainwashing the public into actually believing he is the best so that they repeat it mindlessly and accept that Herb should ref every Conor fight until the end of time and then not point out that he pushes towards a Conor victory every chance he gets.

If more fighters woke up to this we'd have more pushback and therefore accountability. Khabib notably "joked" with an uncomfortable Herb backstage asking how much of a bonus he got to fix his fight with Conor, but most other fighters actually buy into UFC propaganda and enable the corrupt trash. For example, poor Robbie SECONDS after his fight was literally stolen from him to promote Askren (who at the time they were pushing hard / promoting stupid shit like a Khabib fight and title shot) still consoled Herb right after Robbie's fight purse and career momentum was stolen by Herb.

Just like Dustin should have had a mental note walking into his THIRD fight with Conor and seeing Herb the THIRD time as the official (along with literally every other Conor fight the past half decade and the officiating at 229) to think "oh shit... I better not even give off the appearance of any shot hurting me" whereas under normal circumstances that wouldn't be a concern when you don't think the ref is trying to fix the fight.

I do actually.

Why did you flag when Herb reffed these supposed guys but not when he didn't? As already mentioned, Goddard reffed Pereira/Jiri 1 but you didn't mark Pereira as a "clear favourite" there like you did with his other Herb fights like Pereira/Jiri 2. In fact you did the same with Izzy and his fights. Big lol at the double standard you're actively employing.

Why did you leave out other clear favourites like Islam? Was it because he had Goddard and Peterson for his refs and not Herb?

Your thread is cherrypicked shit.

If Islam was a clear marketing favorite then you, as a TKO employee, would be singing his praises here. But you aren't of course. Islam is in the same spot that GSP was in... #1 due to meritocracy so he can't be trashed by the org but as soon as he isn't in that spot he'll be tossed aside. UFC literally marketed his first fight vs Volk as being for #1 P4P... then proved they were lying when Dana put Jon as #1 after Islam not only beat Volk once but twice along with Dustin.

Stop playing fucking dumb by the way. "Gee wiz golly, how is Alex a marketing favorite now when he became a massive PPV star with two belts!?!?! Why wasn't he a marketing favorite when he didn't have any of those qualities coming off a SD vs Jan and no belt and hadn't broke through to being a massive PPV star yet!?"

There was no cherrypicking or double standards in the slightest. Which is why I jumped through the EXACT control group hoop that was posed to me by Sherdog and every single of the last 50 main events was analyzed. And when they were... your PR defense job got 100 times fucking harder because the data is undeniable. So keep spinning me bullshit and bumping the thread... the facts don't lie and your shitty propaganda attempts can't change it.

 

[Dionysian]

Ok, I was skeptical, but willing to accept that TS may be on to something in this thread. However, the three fighters he used as a case study seemed rather cherry-picked. I mean, Sean O'Malley isn't some kind of huge draw or cash cow. And the UFC has pushed other fighters far more than they are pushing O'Malley.

So I looked at the reffing for Brock Lesnar, who the UFC had pushed far more than Jones or O'Malley, two of the subjects of this thread. Here's what I found about who reffed Lesnar's fights:

UFC 81 - Lesnar vs Mir - Steve Mazzagati
UFC 87 - Lesnar vs Herring - Dan Miragliotta
UFC 91 - Lesnar vs Couture - Mario Yamasaki
UFC 100 - Lesnar vs Mir II - Herb Dean
UFC 116 - Lesnar vs Carwin - Josh Rosenthal (this is probably the only one with any controversy, as the ref could have easily stopped the fight when Carwin was pounding Lesnar's face in)
UFC 121 - Lesnar vs Velasquez - Herb Dean
UFC 141 - Lesnar vs Overeem - Mario Yamasaki
UFC 200 - Lesnar vs. Hunt - Dan Miragliotta

So out of the 8 fights with the UFC's biggest cash cow they've ever had, Dean only reffed two of them.

I'm not bothering to take the time to do this with the other superstars, e.g. GSP, Ronda, etc., but I think it's safe to say that the TS has a cool theory......but that it's all BS.

You aren't using "cherrypicked" correctly. Cherrypicked is when you don't look at data. I looked at literally all the last 50 main events. Me singling out something that is BEYOND statistically odd isn't cherrypicking... it is showing the dependent variable (when the UFC wants a certain outcome) completely changes the otherwise independent variable (who refs). That is why Herb more than doubles his likelihood of officiating when the UFC wants to sway the outcome of the fight vs fights they don't care how it ends.

Thank you for taking the time to post the Brock fights because that brings me to a point that I've made several times over the years that I can highlight in this thread as well: Zuffa did NOT fix fights. Fight fixing started under WME. Your post highlights that point: pre-WME Brock fights are what you would NORMALLY EXPECT of officiating for a star... a ton of variety in guys reffing. What we have today (under WME/TKO) is the POLAR OPPOSITE of that.

Your post also dismantles the BS notion pushed in this thread (notably only in the last page I noticed) that Herb is just that much of a superstar and that is why it is totally normal if he refs every single fight with guys the UFC wants to push. That clearly was not the fucking case back in the day despite Herb being a very famous ref then as well. Also notice that it wasn't a repeat pattern back then of those fights involving refs swaying the outcome (well maybe except Josh letting Brock continue vs Carwin as you noted but one instance I can let slide when there isn’t a definitive pattern).

None of us know what's going on in their heads. However, the fact is that the Lesnar case data does not support the hypothesis of this thread.

It does the opposite, see above. Lesnar showed what WAS EXPECTED for a star 15 years ago (refs assignments aren't determined by stardom) is now the OPPOSITE (Herb is assigned to fix the fights for stars) WITH INCREASING REGULARITY. The change occurred when WME took over / has gotten progressively worse under the same org that owns the WWE (TKO) and scripts fights for entertainment. Shocker.

 

[Dionysian]

at this point, i’m surprised when corruption isn’t influencing outcomes. one thing i’ve noticed is that the more money is involved, the less risk stakeholders will tolerate. if a successful athlete / politician / celebrity / entrepreneur / company / movie / artist, etc. is worth $100 million+, then it’s worth $10 million to mitigate any risk of failure. there is no “maybe”—it will 100% be rigged, because the power players aren’t gambling with $100 million. with that kind of money, people lose their integrity real fast.

how hard is it to grease a ref, or a judge, or a commission? at lot easier than greasing an election.

Stop it please. Explaining how the world actually works makes some of the more naive/younger people upset both in threads here and in general.

Everything is on the up and up. Every billion dollar corporation that owns a monopoly over their sport would never ever have influence over that sport. It is only the athletic commissions who have any influence over judges and refs lol. Also the MMA media is super independent.

Elections are also totally on the up and up as well. While I concede that there is corruption everywhere outside the US, I know there is none inside the US... because US news media told me so! Which is also totally on the up and up! USA! USA!

 

[bng]

 

[markg171]

You have it backwards: the UFC first and foremosts "trusts" him. He fixes fights for marketing stars over and over and over. "Best in the biz" tag spammed by the UFC on broadcasts is done for a logical reason and that reason was NOT because of his adherence to officiating rules.

Fans and fighters should definitely NOT trust him for shit because of his very clear pattern of officiating in a way to sway influential fights towards what the UFC wants. That of course is part of the purpose of UFC's "best in the biz" marketing of Herb though... they want to enable him to fix those fights by brainwashing the public into actually believing he is the best so that they repeat it mindlessly and accept that Herb should ref every Conor fight until the end of time and then not point out that he pushes towards a Conor victory every chance he gets.

If more fighters woke up to this we'd have more pushback and therefore accountability. Khabib notably "joked" with an uncomfortable Herb backstage asking how much of a bonus he got to fix his fight with Conor, but most other fighters actually buy into UFC propaganda and enable the corrupt trash. For example, poor Robbie SECONDS after his fight was literally stolen from him to promote Askren (who at the time they were pushing hard / promoting stupid shit like a Khabib fight and title shot) still consoled Herb right after Robbie's fight purse and career momentum was stolen by Herb.

Just like Dustin should have had a mental note walking into his THIRD fight with Conor and seeing Herb the THIRD time as the official (along with literally every other Conor fight the past half decade and the officiating at 229) to think "oh shit... I better not even give off the appearance of any shot hurting me" whereas under normal circumstances that wouldn't be a concern when you don't think the ref is trying to fix the fight.

If Islam was a clear marketing favorite then you, as a TKO employee, would be singing his praises here. But you aren't of course. Islam is in the same spot that GSP was in... #1 due to meritocracy so he can't be trashed by the org but as soon as he isn't in that spot he'll be tossed aside. UFC literally marketed his first fight vs Volk as being for #1 P4P... then proved they were lying when Dana put Jon as #1 after Islam not only beat Volk once but twice along with Dustin.

Stop playing fucking dumb by the way. "Gee wiz golly, how is Alex a marketing favorite now when he became a massive PPV star with two belts!?!?! Why wasn't he a marketing favorite when he didn't have any of those qualities coming off a SD vs Jan and no belt and hadn't broke through to being a massive PPV star yet!?"

There was no cherrypicking or double standards in the slightest. Which is why I jumped through the EXACT control group hoop that was posed to me by Sherdog and every single of the last 50 main events was analyzed. And when they were... your PR defense job got 100 times fucking harder because the data is undeniable. So keep spinning me bullshit and bumping the thread... the facts don't lie and your shitty propaganda attempts can't change it.

Islam isn’t a favourite?

Okay there pal, put down the vodka.

 

[TGArthur]

 

[Dionysian]

1. I post clear data that establishes that Herb inordinately refs fights where the UFC has a vested interest in the outcome
2. Tinfoil hat picture response / zero refutation of the data or premise

Well if you can't make a rational point worth a shit I guess all you can do is post a one-liner/pic response attacking the person posting the data.

Islam isn’t a favourite?

Okay there pal, put down the vodka.

I just posted history showing as much. Of course you don't refute that history, instead spewing a one-liner. And again... if he WAS being pushed by the UFC then you, as an employee, would sure as fuck be required to push him like you pushed every other corporate agenda over the past 5 years. But clearly you aren't.

 

[TGArthur]

1. I post clear data that establishes that Herb inordinately refs fights where the UFC has a vested interest in the outcome
2. Tinfoil hat picture response / zero refutation of the data or premise

Well if you can't make a rational point worth a shit I guess all you can do is post a one-liner/pic response attacking the person posting the data.

I just posted history showing as much. Of course you don't refute that history, instead spewing a one-liner. And again... if he WAS being pushed by the UFC then you, as an employee, would sure as fuck be required to push him like you pushed every other corporate agenda over the past 5 years. But clearly you aren't.

I just posted it for humor, brotha. I don't really have an opinion one way or another. You might be on to something

 

[Dionysian]

I just posted it for humor, brotha. I don't really have an opinion one way or another. You might be on to something

My bad, disregard then brother. I naturally blame @markg171 for putting me in a bad mood via poorly presented TKO PR posting.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I looked at three fighters widely viewed by the UFC to be up and coming marketing stars who then became champions (Conor + Jon + Sean) then I looked at what refs those people got in their fights. The timeline goes from their most recent fight back to when they were first viewed as an emerging star. Notes in green mark specific events that may have changed the UFC's outlook towards that fighter. I can't figure out if there's a pattern but maybe you can help me by looking at the timelines:

CONOR:
Dustin 3 – HERB (couldn’t save him, but he did coddle Conor on the ground whispering to him “it’ll all be ok” like he was married to him afterwards)
Dustin 2 – HERB (Dustin complained post-fight about Herb’s bias allowing Conor to cheat in-cage)
Cerrone – HERB (arguably the one time Herb wasn’t even needed, but he was there anyway)
Khabib – HERB (arguably most documented instance of fight doctoring via a ref allowing cheating... possibly in all of MMA history)
Eddie – Big John
Diaz 2 – Big John
Diaz 1 - HERB
Aldo – Big John
Mendes – HERB (he made repeated critiques of Chad whenever he got Conor down about how Chad had to “watch fingers”)
Siver – HERB
Dustin 1 – HERB
CONOR VERDICT: 100% of all fights in the past 6 years have been Herb Dean. 73% of all fights in the last decade (8 out of 11). 100% of all controversial fights (involving reffing) have included Dean.

JON:
Gane - Goddard
Reyes – Mirg (don't worry, Herb wasn't there but the judges were)
Santos – HERB (don’t worry, Herb couldn’t determine the ending but the judges could)
Smith – HERB (if Smith tried to milk the DQ win and pull an Aljo I bet my life savings Herb would have overruled it)
***Around this time Jones states that he doesn’t want Beltran or Big John to ref his fights any longer***:

Jon Jones on issues with officials: 'It won’t matter who's the referee' at UFC 247

Jon Jones defends his UFC light heavyweight title against Dominick Reyes on Saturday, Feb. 8.

www.pressconnects.com

““I have not (made any requests), but I’ve had some (expletive) situations happen in there,” Jones said. “I felt like I’ve had guys that were very obviously not on my side in that ring”” He never gets either ref ever again. To compensate him, his next 2 fights he gets the pre-151 treatment and gets… you guessed it… Dean.
Gus 2 - Beltran
DC 2 – Big John
***UFC 200 falls apart due to Jon testing positive for steroids / goes back in the doghouse and notice who isn't his ref any longer...***
OSP – HERB (Originally scheduled to be Jon vs DC 2 / DC petitioned to have Herb removed as ref: https://www.foxsports.com/stories/u...but-herb-dean-will-referee-ufc-197-main-event)
DC 1 – HERB
***Jon is promoted as legend in lead-up to DC fight / he comes out of the UFC doghouse***
Glover – Mirg
Alex 1 – Big John
Sonnen – short guy whose name I don’t know
Belfort – Big John
***Jon refuses to fight at UFC 151 vs Hendo / Dana publicly blames him for the event collapsing / Herb then mysteriously stops reffing Jones fights***
Rashad – HERB
Machida – Big John
Rampage - Rosenthal
Shogun - HERB
Bader – HERB
Vlad – HERB
Vera – HERB
JON VERDICT: Jon got Herb to ref 69% of his fights (9 out of 13) while he was in the UFC's good graces. He had Herb ref 0% of his fights (0 out of 6) while he was in the UFC doghouse. PS... I bet my life savings that Herb refs the Jon vs Stipe fight.

SEAN:
Merab – HERB (attempt to skew the fight if only Sean did anything better than get dominated 50-45. But the groundwork was laid… the 48-47 score card waiting for Sean to win a single round in order to give him the SD, the attempt by Herb to prep the point deduction after nonsensically saying “let’s work” 80 times while Merab was dominating)
Chito 2 – short guy (forget his name)
Aljo – HERB (early stoppage)
Yan – Herzog (don’t worry, Herb wasn’t there but the judges were)
Munhoz – Herzog
Paiva – Herzog
Moutinho – HERB / one of the most obvious examples of a doctored stoppage in MMA history. Moutinho losing but not hurt in the slightest. With mere seconds to go in the fight Herb inexplicably ends the fight despite Moutinho not being hurt, dropped, wobbled… NOTHING. Showed that literally all Sean needs is the right ref and to land any punch for a stoppage victory. Clear example of Herb "fight fixer" Dean changing the actual result (UD) to a KO for marketing purposes.
Almeida – some guy I don’t know
Chito 1 – HERB (couldn't save him there of course)
Wineland – HERB
SEAN VERDICT: 50% of all Sean fights since he became a star have been with Herb Dean. 100% of all controversial officiating (not counting judging) occurred with Dean.

There were 43 referees used by the UFC last year. 9 of them used frequently: https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/lists/ufc-referees-oversaw-most-fights-2023
Of those 43 referees, a single referee absolutely, utterly dominated the reffing for three superstars. That lone referee was responsible for nearly 100% of the controversies benefiting those superstars. There was never a single controversy that benefited the challenger to that marketing star.

I feel like there is a pattern here but I can't see it.

I think it s only that Herb is one of the most prominent refs so he tends to be there with rising stars, along Big John, Goddard and Mirg.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Pretty clear message there
"If you work for me in any capacity" and "you approach a referee or judge or any official" then "I will fire you on the spot."

Translation: Know your place dogs / get in line. Note that Hardy did nothing but critique Dean for being incompetent / never even got in his personal space. Dana intentionally chose an abstract word "approach" to make the threat stretch to any fighter publicly contradicting any "official" in any capacity. Message was heard loud and clear after that too considering Hardy has been persona non grata ever since.

It isn't a matter of veterans refs vs amateur refs in general though. It is specific to Herb Dean being applied for one specific goal. There were 9 veteran refs used regularly in 2023 (see above article). All 9 were applied to non-marketing-star fights (Dean included)... but only Dean completely and utterly dominates the schedule for the marketing-star fights. And only Dean has controversy after controversy of altering the fights to maximize the ending result in favor of the marketing star / never EVER acting in favor of the challenger to that marketing star.

Again, if it was incompetence he would be making mistakes on both sides of the aisle. It is NOT incompetence... these "mistakes" are not "mistakes" because they happen over and over and over again systematically towards only ONE predetermined direction EVERY time. This isn't incompetence... it is corruption.

I think Rogan and DC were very openly critical of Herb‘s interference in the Merab/Popsicle fight.

 

[Dionysian]

I think it s only that Herb is one of the most prominent refs so he tends to be there with rising stars, along Big John, Goddard and Mirg.

Check out post #2 in this thread. He is a more prominent ref of course (36% prominent for main events overall to be exact) but he magically becomes more than double as prominent SPECIFICALLY when it is a fight where the UFC has an interest in one particular guy winning (80% prominent).

Conor/Jon/Sean are the easier, blatant examples... but the pattern sticks regardless of who the favored fighter is. If UFC wants a fight fixed... they tend to assign Dean as ref. Plain and simple.

That doesn't even touch on the fact that nearly every documented time ref controversy benefited a guy the UFC wanted to win, Dean just so happened to be that ref.

 

[Pitier of Fools]

You aren't using "cherrypicked" correctly. Cherrypicked is when you don't look at data. I looked at literally all the last 50 main events. Me singling out something that is BEYOND statistically odd isn't cherrypicking... it is showing the dependent variable (when the UFC wants a certain outcome) completely changes the otherwise independent variable (who refs). That is why Herb more than doubles his likelihood of officiating when the UFC wants to sway the outcome of the fight vs fights they don't care how it ends.

Thank you for taking the time to post the Brock fights because that brings me to a point that I've made several times over the years that I can highlight in this thread as well: Zuffa did NOT fix fights. Fight fixing started under WME. Your post highlights that point: pre-WME Brock fights are what you would NORMALLY EXPECT of officiating for a star... a ton of variety in guys reffing. What we have today (under WME/TKO) is the POLAR OPPOSITE of that.

Your post also dismantles the BS notion pushed in this thread (notably only in the last page I noticed) that Herb is just that much of a superstar and that is why it is totally normal if he refs every single fight with guys the UFC wants to push. That clearly was not the fucking case back in the day despite Herb being a very famous ref then as well. Also notice that it wasn't a repeat pattern back then of those fights involving refs swaying the outcome (well maybe except Josh letting Brock continue vs Carwin as you noted but one instance I can let slide when there isn’t a definitive pattern).

It does the opposite, see above. Lesnar showed what WAS EXPECTED for a star 15 years ago (refs assignments aren't determined by stardom) is now the OPPOSITE (Herb is assigned to fix the fights for stars) WITH INCREASING REGULARITY. The change occurred when WME took over / has gotten progressively worse under the same org that owns the WWE (TKO) and scripts fights for entertainment. Shocker.

I didn't mean that you were cherry picking data within the scope of your samples. I meant that you were cherry picking the samples themselves. Sean O'Malley isn't even top ten for fighters the UFC has tried to hype up, protect, and capitalize on popularity. Frankly, Jon Jones isn't either.

In my opinion, the three fighters you picked as examples don't make a compelling case.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Check out post #2 in this thread. He is a more prominent ref of course (36% prominent for main events overall to be exact) but he magically becomes more than double as prominent SPECIFICALLY when it is a fight where the UFC has an interest in one particular guy winning (80% prominent).

Conor/Jon/Sean are the easier, blatant examples... but the pattern sticks regardless of who the favored fighter is. If UFC wants a fight fixed... they tend to assign Dean as ref. Plain and simple.

That doesn't even touch on the fact that nearly every documented time ref controversy benefited a guy the UFC wanted to win, Dean just so happened to be that ref.

Not saying you are wrong but are you sure it doesn t go the other way as well? Like Herb not helping the guy being pushed by ufc

 

[Dionysian]

I think Rogan and DC were very openly critical of Herb‘s interference in the Merab/Popsicle fight.

Rogan is an interesting guy. Interesting in that he is independent enough and rich enough that he has the freedom to now break script more. Note the 229 commentary where Dom was saying outlandishly stupid shit fed to him by the truck but Rogan had the balls/flexibility to call out how fucking stupid the comments were.

The powers that be may push a certain narrative but Rogan, in his advancing age and social power, seemingly now has the balls to break script and occasionally point out "uh look at how fucking stupid this is" whereas other employees would never dream of doing it.

 

[Dionysian]

I didn't mean that you were cherry picking data within the scope of your samples. I meant that you were cherry picking the samples themselves. Sean O'Malley isn't even top ten for fighters the UFC has tried to hype up, protect, and capitalize on popularity. Frankly, Jon Jones isn't either.

In my opinion, the three fighters you picked as examples don't make a compelling case.

Oh ok. Pretty weird approach and I'll be honest that I disagree strongly. I think Conor/Jon/Sean have been the most obvious examples of fighters being actively promoted by the UFC over the past 5 years.

Craziest IMHO is that you didn't think Sean was even top 10! But if you disagree, that is fine man.

Not saying you are wrong but are you sure it doesn t go the other way as well? Like Herb not helping the guy being pushed by ufc

Any examples you can think of when he did this? Obviously he can't make a guy outmatched win a fight but he sure as fuck can do everything he can to rig it to make it more likely. 229 being the obvious example.

To my knowledge he has NEVER done the reverse. As in, controversially pushed it so that the marketing enemy was more likely to win. If you can think of any good examples though I'd entertain the idea that plain old incompetence is to blame.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Rogan is an interesting guy. Interesting in that he is independent enough and rich enough that he has the freedom to now break script more. Note the 229 commentary where Dom was saying outlandishly stupid shit fed to him by the truck but Rogan had the balls/flexibility to call out how fucking stupid the comments were.

The powers that be may push a certain narrative but Rogan, in his advancing age and social power, seemingly now has the balls to break script and occasionally point out "uh look at how fucking stupid this is" whereas other employees would never dream of doing it.

I agree but then DC was also criticising Herb.

Oh ok. Pretty weird approach and I'll be honest that I disagree strongly. I think Conor/Jon/Sean have been the most obvious examples of fighters being actively promoted by the UFC over the past 5 years.

Craziest IMHO is that you didn't think Sean was even top 10! But if you disagree, that is fine man.

Any examples you can think of when he did this? Obviously he can't make a guy outmatched win a fight but he sure as fuck can do everything he can to rig it to make it more likely. 229 being the obvious example.

To my knowledge he has NEVER done the reverse. As in, controversially pushed it so that the marketing enemy was more likely to win. If you can think of any good examples though I'd entertain the idea that plain old incompetence is to blame.

no i don t have evidence to provide. Just objecting common known bias when looking at stats but you may very well be up to something. I am certain that engineered outcomes happen in ufc. Having a ref which never forgets the company s interest is one way of tilting the scales, and there are many ways to conflict someone without outright corruption.

 

[Pitier of Fools]

Oh ok. Pretty weird approach and I'll be honest that I disagree strongly. I think Conor/Jon/Sean have been the most obvious examples of fighters being actively promoted by the UFC over the past 5 years.

Craziest IMHO is that you didn't think Sean was even top 10! But if you disagree, that is fine man.

Any examples you can think of when he did this? Obviously he can't make a guy outmatched win a fight but he sure as fuck can do everything he can to rig it to make it more likely. 229 being the obvious example.

To my knowledge he has NEVER done the reverse. As in, controversially pushed it so that the marketing enemy was more likely to win. If you can think of any good examples though I'd entertain the idea that plain old incompetence is to blame.

Yeah, we disagree on this, but I do respect the work you did digging up data. It's not something that can be proven either way (unless there was a whistleblower or something), so it's going to come down to peoples' opinion of the data.

But to your point, if we're only talking the last five years now (which I didn't get from the original post), Jon Jones has only fought twice in the last five years. Herb did not ref either of those fights. And Dana being all over Jones's nuts is a recent thing to try to hype up and validate his fight with Stipe. It hasn't always been like that. From what I'm remembering, Dana's spent more time bashing Jon Jones over his career than fluffing him. Soooooooo, I really don't think that supports your hypothesis much either.

And as far as Sean O'Malley goes, he's not a big draw, has never been a big draw, and never will be a big draw. I'm sure the UFC knows this, as they're the ones making or not making money off their fights. If they're going to criminally rig fights, he seems a really strange one to do it for.

 

[Dionysian]

no i don t have evidence to provide. Just objecting common known bias when looking at stats but you may very well be up to something. I am certain that engineered outcomes happen in ufc. Having a ref which never forgets the company s interest is one way of tilting the scales, and there are many ways to conflict someone without outright corruption.

That IMHO is the most damning part of this whole thing / why I asked if you had anything specific in mind. I have ranted for years on end about Herb's officiating and example after example after example after example continues to pile up on my side where Herb makes controversial ref decisions that benefit the guy UFC wants to push. The classic defense on here is always "nah he is just incompetent" and then when I ask "ok so when does his incompetence go in the other direction and hurt the marketing star" no one ever has any example despite me having 100 examples of when he helps the marketing stars. The fact his "incompetence" only goes in ONE direction after YEARS worth of "mistakes" is the most glaring indictment possible IMO.

Yeah, we disagree on this, but I do respect the work you did digging up data. It's not something that can be proven either way (unless there was a whistleblower or something), so it's going to come down to peoples' opinion of the data.

But to your point, if we're only talking the last five years now (which I didn't get from the original post), Jon Jones has only fought twice in the last five years. Herb did not ref either of those fights. And Dana being all over Jones's nuts is a recent thing to try to hype up and validate his fight with Stipe. It hasn't always been like that. From what I'm remembering, Dana's spent more time bashing Jon Jones over his career than fluffing him. Soooooooo, I really don't think that supports your hypothesis much either.

And as far as Sean O'Malley goes, he's not a big draw, has never been a big draw, and never will be a big draw. I'm sure the UFC knows this, as they're the ones making or not making money off their fights. If they're going to criminally rig fights, he seems a really strange one to do it for.

Re-read the OP section specifically about Jon man.

Jon is a REALLY interesting case because he is the only fighter I know of that does what you described: falls in and out of the UFC's good graces. I mean sure people go from marketing favorites to marketing enemies (Randy Couture for example) historically but no one does this weird roller coaster thing like Jon where he flips constantly back and forth between positive and negative for years on end with Dana.

Anyway, that was what I found most interesting about Jon: in his "I'm feeling the UFC love" portions of his career 69% of his fights are Dean. In his "Dana doesn't like me" portions of his career he literally got the Herb treatment 0% of the time. Pretty funky coincidence, right? I notated the times when he dips off the UFC promotion roller coaster in green font in the OP in case you were curious.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

That IMHO is the most damning part of this whole thing / why I asked if you had anything specific in mind. I have ranted for years on end about Herb's officiating and example after example after example after example continues to pile up on my side where Herb makes controversial ref decisions that benefit the guy UFC wants to push. The classic defense on here is always "nah he is just incompetent" and then when I ask "ok so when does his incompetence go in the other direction and hurt the marketing star" no one ever has any example despite me having 100 examples of when he helps the marketing stars. The fact his "incompetence" only goes in ONE direction after YEARS worth of "mistakes" is the most glaring indictment possible IMO.


Re-read the OP section specifically about Jon man.

Jon is a REALLY interesting case because he is the only fighter I know of that does what you described: falls in and out of the UFC's good graces. I mean sure people go from marketing favorites to marketing enemies (Randy Couture for example) historically but no one does this weird roller coaster thing like Jon where he flips constantly back and forth between positive and negative for years on end with Dana.

Anyway, that was what I found most interesting about Jon: in his "I'm feeling the UFC love" portions of his career 69% of his fights are Dean. In his "Dana doesn't like me" portions of his career he literally got the Herb treatment 0% of the time. Pretty funky coincidence, right? I notated the times when he dips off the UFC promotion roller coaster in green font in the OP in case you were curious.

I think unfortunately the only way to be sure is to look at all ME from your 50 fights list and see if a clear trend in behaviour is spottable.