Can you shortcut years of training by rolling with the best?

[biscuitsbrah]

If I had a choice it would be to train with elite people who would carry me and give me work while only sometimes destroying me, people my level to test my skills, and people worse to try new things and to destroy them so I can learn to rek people with skills

 

[DanaWhitesButler]

No. You need opponents on your level that you're capable of submitting in order to effectively work on your offense at high intensity.

It also takes a long time to get good at BJJ and there are no real shortcuts. Two women can't make a baby in 4.5 months, as they say.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Lot of ranting below.

I know this line of thinking blew up since Danaher stated a similar variation.

Personally I disagree. I felt I improved much more from getting my ass whooped by everyone, if only on a subconscious level. It takes a little more out of you mentally to train this way but I think on a similar timescale, you come out the other end a better grappler, even if your less happy from getting your ass beat all the time.

If things like loyalty were not a barrier, I think the best way to get good is to hop around to different schools and become a ronin (which I prefer to creonte). Become exposed to a completely different teaching style and set of partners.

After about a year or two, maybe 3 tops, you've seen the core of just about everything your instructor knows and you've become highly adapted to your training partners. I say adapted because sometimes it's hard to figure out whether you are getting better at grappling or if you've just become really used to the way your partners roll after years of the same roll. It may be analogous to always using the same set/rep/weight scheme in weight training - you sometimes need to mix things up to improve.

Of course most of us aren't this draconian. We become emotionally attached to our training partners, instructor, and stay for reasons beyond technical improvement.

Hopefully one day we'll have the grappling equivalent of a pub crawl. Pay a flat rate to be able to train at a bunch of places.

Ir has nothing to do with Danaher but with how I see and probably most people see jiu jitsu. Ive been training for 9 years, and I have always seen very useful to roll with people way below my skill level. It’s where you implement your new attacks, it’s quite simple, it’s the same concept as drilling with progressive resistance. Which IMO, it’s the best way to drill stuff. You are not going to be pulling any single submission or guard pass in a room full of black belts you being a white belt, how are you going to get good at something. You can’t even get started at? Unless guys are letting you do stuff, your not, in which case, you better just find training partners and drill. Also, your Bjj life will suck balls, most people if not all will just quit after 1 year of not Being able to do jack shot but getting smashed. It’s just not fun, it’s hard to keep on training without motivation.

Now I agree that visiting different gyms is extremely beneficial, unless you are in a huge school, that’s what open mats are for.

 

[asian-glow]

Ir has nothing to do with Danaher but with how I see and probably most people see jiu jitsu. Ive been training for 9 years, and I have always seen very useful to roll with people way below my skill level. It’s where you implement your new attacks, it’s quite simple, it’s the same concept as drilling with progressive resistance. Which IMO, it’s the best way to drill stuff. You are not going to be pulling any single submission or guard pass in a room full of black belts you being a white belt, how are you going to get good at something. You can’t even get started at? Unless guys are letting you do stuff, your not, in which case, you better just find training partners and drill. Also, your Bjj life will suck balls, most people if not all will just quite after 1 year of not Being able to do jack shot but getting smashed. It’s just not fun, it’s hard to keep on training without motivation.

Now I agree that visiting different gyms is extremely beneficial, unless you are in a huge school, that’s what open mats are for.

That's fair to say. I don't think there's any one optimal way for everyone to learn. I think the most important thing is to just figure out what works for you. If you're lucky, you figure this out early. If you're really lucky, you stumble upon a teacher that appeals to the way you learn and you get to train with people who facilitate your optimal environment. Hopefully you have this available to you in South America (Paraguay/Uruguay?).

 

[mataleaos]

Ir has nothing to do with Danaher but with how I see and probably most people see jiu jitsu. Ive been training for 9 years, and I have always seen very useful to roll with people way below my skill level. It’s where you implement your new attacks, it’s quite simple, it’s the same concept as drilling with progressive resistance. Which IMO, it’s the best way to drill stuff. You are not going to be pulling any single submission or guard pass in a room full of black belts you being a white belt, how are you going to get good at something. You can’t even get started at? Unless guys are letting you do stuff, your not, in which case, you better just find training partners and drill. Also, your Bjj life will suck balls, most people if not all will just quite after 1 year of not Being able to do jack shot but getting smashed. It’s just not fun, it’s hard to keep on training without motivation.

Now I agree that visiting different gyms is extremely beneficial, unless you are in a huge school, that’s what open mats are for.

I have definitely made the most progress at purple and then at brown during periods when I was mostly rolling with blue belts or new purple belts. It's just one person's anecdote. I'm not claiming that's the best thing for everyone and I think it's very important to also have training partners that are your level and also better than you to push you and allow you to work on defense also. But I do think there's a lot of merit to the idea of improving by rolling with people that are a couple levels beneath you. And people are acting like it's a Danaher thing but you are right that it's not a new idea. Braulio Estima and Roger Gracie have both championed the idea for a long time. Craig Jones is currently a big proponent of the idea. Rafa Mendes has become a fan of the idea. There are plenty of others because again it's not a new idea although it's popular right now.

 

[yetanother]

But I do think there's a lot of merit to the idea of improving by rolling with people that are a couple levels beneath you.

If there a couple levels beneath I find that a waste of time. I would trade like 5 rounds of rolling with people who suck for one 5 minute positional sparring round with someone who is better then me.

 

[JinKazama]

didn't joe rogan say the best way to improve was to keep crushing blue belts?

don't know if im remembering that right

 

[BJJ_Rage]

That's fair to say. I don't think there's any one optimal way for everyone to learn. I think the most important thing is to just figure out what works for you. If you're lucky, you figure this out early. If you're really lucky, you stumble upon a teacher that appeals to the way you learn and you get to train with people who facilitate your optimal environment. Hopefully you have this available to you in South America (Paraguay/Uruguay?).

Paraguay my friend...

 

[BJJ_Rage]

If there a couple levels beneath I find that a waste of time. I would trade like 5 rounds of rolling with people who suck for one 5 minute positional sparring round with someone who is better then me.

why would it be a waste of time? think you are a purple, you are by no means a world beater just yet, if you are a hobbiest even more, even some good white belts could put a good roll. They are exactly what you need to improve and work on new stuff, they are not good enough to stop all your new attacks, that by default shoudlnt be that good just yet, but they are good enough to put some resistance and give the "drill" some reality.

 

[yetanother]

why would it be a waste of time? think you are a purple, you are by no means a world beater just yet, if you are a hobbiest even more, even some good white belts could put a good roll. They are exactly what you need to improve and work on new stuff, they are not good enough to stop all your new attacks, that by default shoudlnt be that good just yet, but they are good enough to put some resistance and give the "drill" some reality.

Brown belt now. Was a national champ (in Poland so not the strongest of countries) at purple belt.
Free rolling is super inefficient to try new stuff, I waste a ton of time getting them into positions I want to work . Most white/blue belts when the figure out I'm working on something and pull it over and over again and they see they can't stop it fall over and like let me get side control.
With positional sparring I can do my moves over and over again without wasting time trying to get to a specific position.
I could use rolling with skilled light weight people for learning for example spider guard.
Low level people have bad reactions too.

 

[asian-glow]

I have definitely made the most progress at purple and then at brown during periods when I was mostly rolling with blue belts or new purple belts.

I may have asked you this before but I'm curious as to how you specifically went about doing this on a day to day, monthly, and pehaps even yearly basis.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Brown belt now. Was a national champ (in Poland so not the strongest of countries) at purple belt.
Free rolling is super inefficient to try new stuff, I waste a ton of time getting them into positions I want to work . Most white/blue belts when the figure out I'm working on something and pull it over and over again and they see they can't stop it fall over and like let me get side control.
With positional sparring I can do my moves over and over again without wasting time trying to get to a specific position.
I could use rolling with skilled light weight people for learning for example spider guard.
Low level people have bad reactions too.

I didnt mean to say "you are a purple" belt.. I meant "think you are a purple belt" as to giving an example...

positional sparring is no doubt the best way to learn, cant argue with that.

 

[asian-glow]

I didnt mean to say "you are a purple" belt.. I meant "think you are a purple belt" as to giving an example...

positional sparring is no doubt the best way to learn, cant argue with that.

My instructor/main training partner doesn't like doing it and it's a bummer.

This is why I think open mat is the selfish man's positional sparring. We essentially end up doing it anyway but bc he's more skilled than I, he's more able to funnel us into the area he wants to work. I can only improve the antagonist to what he wants to get good at and our time isn't equally split, if that makes sense.

I'm able to then do what he did to me to others but they don't always offer the optimal level of resistance.

 

[mataleaos]

I may have asked you this before but I'm curious as to how you specifically went about doing this on a day to day, monthly, and pehaps even yearly basis.

Went about progressing at those points?

 

[asian-glow]

Went about progressing at those points?

I know it's kind of a broad question so I tried to narrow it down. I somehow made the question more confusing it seems.
Answer any way you like.

 

[Orion]

What podcast? I would like to listen to that, I have some of his instructionals and like him.

I believe it was this one:

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Only in the beginning initial phases. You can learn the important basics like that, but you will develop a particular style, a defensive style like that. If you want to grow your game offensively, you need to go against people who you will have a chance against.

It is like with the team sports soccer, and hockey. The kids that start later than most kids always end up playing defense or even goalie. And that is not because Defense takes no skill, but is likely the only thing you will be doing going against people with more experience than you. So you develop that aspect only. In basketball, you become a Dennis Rodman or Meta World Peace type.

Submission grappling is very methodical. Offense is series of chains and progressions. If you get shut down by better people in the beginning than you never learn how to progress from stage to stage to stage to finish. You are always on the defensive. At best you will develop a sneaky type of come from behind, pull rabbit out of hat type of offense. But that is not what you really want to become a good well rounded grappler.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

I immediately thought of GSP when I read the title. Its tricky though because he was already a damn good grappler and a world class athlete. When you consider that plus who he had access to in terms of wrestling, it makes sense how he got so good so fast.

Mark Schultz didn't start wrestling until a year or 2 into High School and wound up a 3x NCAA DI champ just a couple years later but again, he was already a fantastic athlete and national level gymnast who happened to grow up fighting his brother, another great.

So I think you can get better quickly by training with people much higher level than yourself, but you need to have the athleticism and mentality to withstand it.

Wait, he was a gymnast before a wrestler? I never knew that. I have heard that the Soviet Union use to make their athletes learn gymnastics first before going to other sports because they wanted kids to learn body control. Or something along those lines.

 

[dsdoubled]

Wait, he was a gymnast before a wrestler? I never knew that. I have heard that the Soviet Union use to make their athletes learn gymnastics first before going to other sports because they wanted kids to learn body control. Or something along those lines.

Yeah man according to Mark himself he was quite good. Cary Kolat shares that opinion. He says all aspiring wrestlers should do 1-2 years of gymnastics first.

 

[dimmyfinster]

I think for smaller,older, or weaker players, having lesser skilled partners are even more important than for younger stronger players.

young purples basically overpower the old browns without trying. Sometimes the old people need a huge gap in skill to compensate.