Can you shortcut years of training by rolling with the best?

[asian-glow]

If you get shut down by better people in the beginning than you never learn how to progress from stage to stage to stage to finish. You are always on the defensive. At best you will develop a sneaky type of come from behind, pull rabbit out of hat type of offense. But that is not what you really want to become a good well rounded grappler.

I've encountered a few guys who have a "turtle" style consisting of highly defensive play. They don't ever tap people but it's also really difficult to tap them. I never considered that training in the type of environment mentioned above might lead to developing that kind of style.

My style once I get my guard passed is like this too. My elbows have been jacked so many times I'd rather sit and wait for an opportunity to escape then risk my elbows getting jacked. I know this is a bad mentality but it's hard to shake.

Interestingly yesterday was the first time someone pretended to strike me from top position. Turtle style (not the guard) is great for avoiding subs in a grappling context but leaves you open for a lot of strikes. I have a hard time reconciling the efficient strategy of waiting for an escape opportunity and the immediate strategy of getting the fuck out of bad bottom positions.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

I've encountered a few guys who have a "turtle" style consisting of highly defensive play. They don't ever tap people but it's also really difficult to tap them. I never considered that training in the type of environment mentioned above might lead to developing that kind of style.

My style once I get my guard passed is like this too. My elbows have been jacked so many times I'd rather sit and wait for an opportunity to escape then risk my elbows getting jacked. I know this is a bad mentality but it's hard to shake.

Interestingly yesterday was the first time someone pretended to strike me from top position. Turtle style (not the guard) is great for avoiding subs in a grappling context but leaves you open for a lot of strikes. I have a hard time reconciling the efficient strategy of waiting for an escape opportunity and the immediate strategy of getting the fuck out of bad bottom positions.

But with turtle, your feet are underneath you, which should enable you to move around. You can go in many directions including turning into your opponent. With your hands, you can grab opponent, stopping him from striking.

 

[asian-glow]

But with turtle, your feet are underneath you, which should enable you to move around. You can go in many directions including turning into your opponent. With your hands, you can grab opponent, stopping him from striking.

I should have clarified. I didn't mean turtle guard as made famous by Telles.

I meant a turtle "style", where people play a highly defensive style where they put no effort into escaping but maximal effort into not being tapped.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

I should have clarified. I didn't mean turtle guard as made famous by Telles.

I meant a turtle "style", where people play a highly defensive style where they put no effort into escaping but maximal effort into not being tapped.

well if you just stay in turtle you will get blasted with strikes of course, but even in guard, you will get blasted unless you actively move around, and use arms and legs.

 

[whougonnacall]

Yeah
I remember an article by the possibly the goat of real self defence geoff thompson
Guys a lifetimejudoka black belt and says he spent a month with the uk team prepping for olympics .....by end if it was just about not getting instant tossed (mentions honestly he had no illusions that he even got close to their level though) but felt his judo game went up immensely

 

[yetanother]

Yeah
I remember an article by the possibly the goat of real self defence geoff thompson
Guys a lifetimejudoka black belt and says he spent a month with the uk team prepping for olympics .....by end if it was just about not getting instant tossed (mentions honestly he had no illusions that he even got close to their level though) but felt his judo game went up immensely

Blocking attacks style of defense while you are both in good position (as opposed to escaping side control or surviving a choke for a long time) is a super valuable skill and training with better people develops it a lot.

 

[whougonnacall]

Blocking attacks style of defense while you are both in good position (as opposed to escaping side control or surviving a choke for a long time) is a super valuable skill and training with better people develops it a lot.

Yeah true it all depends on you basicaly
Quash your ego and if your smart you cant help but learn when you roll/spar with the elite esp if they arent dicks !
I kickboxed sparred with a 3 time former world champ prepping for a fight once and dont think i landed a single shot for the whole round...but after he told me a few things about why i was so easy to read and really felt it was a good exp(once my ribs stopped hurting)

 

[yetanother]

Sure having someone elite dismantle your game is super valuable.

 

[thugpoet]

This is how most learn at other sports.

Being the youngest or the littlest forces you to develop at a high rate in order to complete.

I don't know why you guys think it's any different for bjj.

 

[Quebec Nick]

This is how most learn at other sports.

Being the youngest or the littlest forces you to develop at a high rate in order to complete.

I don't know why you guys think it's any different for bjj.

There's a lot of theories about that, I know that in hockey, like 35% of the player that get to the NHL are born in the first quarter of the year, it goes down to 15% for the ones born in the last quarter.

This means that being the oldest and the more physically developped helps you to get to the better teams and programs when you are young, 6 months or 9 months age gap for a 8 years old is huge. So if you have access to the elite program.

Being at the right place and the right level seems to be the good thing in that case.

I'm still a strong believer that you should roll mostly with people in your range and do some with higher and lower level

 

[thugpoet]

There's a lot of theories about that, I know that in hockey, like 35% of the player that get to the NHL are born in the first quarter of the year, it goes down to 15% for the ones born in the last quarter.

This means that being the oldest and the more physically developped helps you to get to the better teams and programs when you are young, 6 months or 9 months age gap for a 8 years old is huge. So if you have access to the elite program.

Being at the right place and the right level seems to be the good thing in that case.

I'm still a strong believer that you should roll mostly with people in your range and do some with higher and lower level

I don't know the stats.

When a young kid shows promise it allows him to play with the older kids.

I was one of those kids. I was better then those my age. In part because I played with kids way older then me.

I've seen that story play out over and over again.

Kid plays with older brother and his friends same kid dominates his age group gets moved to a more advanced bracket futher developing him and his skillset.

If I could do it over again I'd love To a gym full of competition fighters and spend my time getting worked while drilling and developing my game. I've seen greatness happen this way much too often to go against the formula.

 

[Alech33]

It depends on how you're able to do against the competition. Gsp was able to hang with them. A good example is alpha male. Tj, Cody and many other name guys have a lot to offer everyone and grow. There's also a lot of unnamed guys who are their punching bags. I think you are best working with ppl close to your level. Some slightly better some slightly worse. Mismatches on either ends can either lead to false confidence if they don't challenge you or loss of confidence if you're getting crushed

 

[Forceof1]

This is how most learn at other sports.

Being the youngest or the littlest forces you to develop at a high rate in order to complete.

I don't know why you guys think it's any different for bjj.

I think you are referencing team / ball sports vs a grappling sport.

If you brought a white belt into a group of brown belts- and they were rolling hard- he would conceivably never get to mount and try an arm bar in his life. Yes, after time his defense would improve- but he would seriously never even get to attempt an arm bar. Same with a RNC from back control, etc. You can't be forced to develop at a high rate in order to compete- because you'll simply never be able to compete. You need to roll against worse / same level people in order to be able to try some of the stuff you've felt.

Basketball is different- even if you are way worse, you can still dribble / pass / shoot. So observing / learning from really good players is helpful, but you still get to do those things you need to do to improve.

 

[thugpoet]

I think you are referencing team / ball sports vs a grappling sport.

If you brought a white belt into a group of brown belts- and they were rolling hard- he would conceivably never get to mount and try an arm bar in his life. Yes, after time his defense would improve- but he would seriously never even get to attempt an arm bar. Same with a RNC from back control, etc. You can't be forced to develop at a high rate in order to compete- because you'll simply never be able to compete. You need to roll against worse / same level people in order to be able to try some of the stuff you've felt.

Basketball is different- even if you are way worse, you can still dribble / pass / shoot. So observing / learning from really good players is helpful, but you still get to do those things you need to do to improve.

Have you ever played high level sports? Or are you assuming? The speed is entirely different. It's sink or swim regardless.

Sports are sports learning is learning. The method doesn't change.

I've never seen a big fish in a small pond be the best at anything.

If you want to be the best you have to put yourself in a situation where you are the little brother.

James Tony says this also. " I learned the shoulder roll by taking ass whooping in the gym"

Tyson was getting koed in sparring.

Jordan got cut from the high school team.

I myself took many beat downs in boxing and Bjj to get where I am. I still suck at Bjj but my boxing is up to par.

Also why is the assumption that there is no drilling? Drilling with a bb as your partner is entirely different then drilling with a weekend Bjj guy.

You need pressure to make diamonds. What better pressure than getting choked out everyday until your body and mind adapts?

 

[yetanother]

Also why is the assumption that there is no drilling?

I think the assumption is that stupid traditional training methods are being used? Where you sit around listening to instruction and the drill a move like 3 or 5 times and then roll or maybe do some random silly every ones play guard starting with no grips drill?
You can work you offense really well especially against better people by doing positional sparring from better positions.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Have you ever played high level sports? Or are you assuming? The speed is entirely different. It's sink or swim regardless.

Sports are sports learning is learning. The method doesn't change.

I've never seen a big fish in a small pond be the best at anything.

If you want to be the best you have to put yourself in a situation where you are the little brother.

James Tony says this also. " I learned the shoulder roll by taking ass whooping in the gym"

Tyson was getting koed in sparring.

Jordan got cut from the high school team.

I myself took many beat downs in boxing and Bjj to get where I am. I still suck at Bjj but my boxing is up to par.

Also why is the assumption that there is no drilling? Drilling with a bb as your partner is entirely different then drilling with a weekend Bjj guy.

You need pressure to make diamonds. What better pressure than getting choked out everyday until your body and mind adapts?

Your just describing what will happen in terms of defense, yes you will get better, but drilling will not get you far in terms of offense unless you are rolling for real and getting to those positions live... say you are drilling back attacks, your clsss is full of brown and bb, you have drilled the shit out of rnc, thing is, unless your team mates let you get there, there is about zero chances you will get to someone’s back in like 2 or 3 years at least.

James toney said he learned to shoulder roll. By getting his ass best, well how much did his shoulder rolls skills helped him vs randy? Zero. He had no grappling skills at all, bad example.

 

[thugpoet]

Your just describing what will happen in terms of defense, yes you will get better, but drilling will not get you far in terms of offense unless you are rolling for real and getting to those positions live... say you are drilling back attacks, your clsss is full of brown and bb, you have drilled the shit out of rnc, thing is, unless your team mates let you get there, there is about zero chances you will get to someone’s back in like 2 or 3 years at least.

James toney said he learned to shoulder roll. By getting his ass best, well how much did his shoulder rolls skills helped him vs randy? Zero. He had no grappling skills at all, bad example.

Lol well of course I randy is a career grappler and James Tony is a career boxer. The shoulder roll is a boxing defensive maneuver not a Bjj won. So I don't see what you are talking about...

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Lol well of course I randy is a career grappler and James Tony is a career boxer. The shoulder roll is a boxing defensive maneuver not a Bjj won. So I don't see what you are talking about...

Sorry, I was thinking shoulder roll in grappling terms... my bad

 

[empsim]

training partner with similar or slightly higher skill + coach who points out the mistakes is the fastest way to improve imo

someone way above your level will either easily submit you over and over or let you get away with stuff on purpose. neither is very helpful.

 

[yetanother]

Sports are sports learning is learning. The method doesn't change.

The traditional training methods in BJJ just suck.