Can you do spinning backfist in boxing?

[Discipulus]

This is what everyone does instead of admitting they are wrong

BUT I DONT SEE BUAKAW DOING SO HA!!!

:icon_lol:

Wait, Buakaw doesn't throw spinning kicks?

Never mind, they're useless.

 

[Gregolian]

Pretty sure I said I considered spinning elbows a bit different, hence the video of a spinning back elbow I put on, You following Brick?
Why would you try to emulate guys that are have poor technique and a losing record? Guys like Saki is a good example of what I'm saying, they arn't firing spinning back fists and hook kicks all round long, they wait for an opperitunity use it then go back to more conventional strikes.
The more you uses a spinning back fist, back kick, hook kick, etc the less effective it becomes.

And I am telling you that spinning elbow get your legs tangled up far more quickly than an fist will because of how cramped the space is. YOU following Gomer Pyle?

 

[NAKMUAY18]

So wait... those weren't high level guys? Have you actually seen Serkan's fight with Masato. It was very close. A lot of people actually thought that Serkan should have won on account of his knockdowns and aggressive performance. Serkan's problem was always that he came out too wildly and aggressively, not that his spinning kicks didn't work. I thought we were arguing about the effectiveness of spinning attacks. Several of them landed solidly on Masato, one of the best kickboxers of our time, and one of them blasted him off his feet and into the turnbuckle. So what if Masato took the decision? Doesn't that show that the techniques were effective? Doesn't it say something about how effective they are that Masato got smashed by several of them, especially against a young fighter with a 6-3 record?

I can show you more videos if you want. Evidently you're afraid to be proven wrong, or you'd already be searching them out yourself. The reason I posted highlight videos is because they condensed a lot of effective spinning attacks into a short timeframe, and you don't strike me as the type of guy who would watch an entire fight, especially if I told you beforehand that the video would prove your misconceived notions wrong. But hey, what the hell. Behold the glory of Steve Vick.



See, I'm imagining the scenario in your gym. You strut proudly up to the heavy bag, having just seen Edson Barboza knock out Terry Etim with a spinning hook kick. "I can do that," you say to yourself, and proceed to sluggishly spin around and fling your leg at the bag. You hyperextend your knee, hurt your heel, and fall down. Standing back up, you dust yourself off and proudly proclaim to all who will listen: "Spinning attacks are useless!" Sound about right?



I get what you're saying. It's just that you're wrong. I'm saying you ought to throw them whenever they're called for. I suspect that you don't throw spinning attacks very well, and so no, you probably shouldn't use them more than once a round. That surprise factor may be the only thing that makes them work for you. But there are styles and fighters that use spinning attacks of all varieties very well, and when the situation calls they can be used, no matter how many times a round. A spin isn't as easy for the eyes to detect as you might think.

You think I picked the video because the trainer is Thai? I picked it because the Superman in the video is done well. The kick is effectively faked, and the lunge with the punch is well-executed. Did I recommend any of the training techniques in the video? No. I used it as an example of a well-executed superman punch.

Wait, so you pull "The Turkish Assassin" back from obscurity to prove your point, then you search the archives for to dig out a Steve Superkick Vick?

And when did I say "spinning attacks are useless"? Have you been readin or just waiting for your chance to type again

Yodsankai, Giorgio Petrosyan, Nieky Holzken, Fabio Pinca, JWP, Dzhabar, Artur Kyshenko, Robin van Roosmalen Liam Harrison Jordan Watson
All these people seam to disagree with you, most know how to throw a spinning back kick or fist, and on occasion do, but you know better!! I presumed that between the lot of them they might have found to most effective ways to fight but they must have got it wrong. It must be the years of experience you have, the hundreds of pro fights or the prospects you've trained into seasoned fighters, and that's why the spin isn't as easy for your eye's to detect.

On the other hand I can use my imagination too. I guess your the non-athletic guy in the class that questions the coach on every little detail he instructs. "Why do I have to do that?", "I read somewhere I should do this", "someone on the internet said I shouldn't do it that way." You know, the type of guy that invents his own Martial Art.

I'm not a pro, and I don't pretend to be. I train with MMA pros, Muay Thai pros, and ex boxing pros. I also watch lots of pro fights, and if the general consensus from guys with 50-60-200 wins is to fight a certain way IT'S CORRECT. I'm not gonna re-invent the wheel over guys with 1000's of fights between them, I'm just gonna try to understand why they do it

Fuck it, stick with your tornado kick into backfist into hook kick.
How does Discipulus-son-do sound

 

[NAKMUAY18]

And I am telling you that spinning elbow get your legs tangled up far more quickly than an fist will because of how cramped the space is. YOU following Gomer Pyle?

I'm more interested in what the Thai boatman with the big foam length in Disc's video has to say about fighting, and I really couldn't give a shit about that.
Back to the Wrestlmania thread with you son.

 

[Discipulus]

Wait, so you pull "The Turkish Assassin" back from obscurity to prove your point, then you search the archives for to dig out a Steve Superkick Vick?

I'm sorry, but what's wrong with Steve Vick? Just because he doesn't fight anymore, I can't use him as an example?

And when did I say "spinning attacks are useless"? Have you been readin or just waiting for your chance to type again

Yodsankai, Giorgio Petrosyan, Nieky Holzken, Fabio Pinca, JWP, Dzhabar, Artur Kyshenko, Robin van Roosmalen Liam Harrison Jordan Watson
All these people seam to disagree with you, most know how to throw a spinning back kick or fist, and on occasion do, but you know better!! I presumed that between the lot of them they might have found to most effective ways to fight but they must have got it wrong. It must be the years of experience you have, the hundreds of pro fights or the prospects you've trained into seasoned fighters, and that's why the spin isn't as easy for your eye's to detect.

I like how you didn't include Buakaw due to the fact that Legs already insinuated that the reason you don't think spins are effective is because he doesn't use them.

Is the fact that none of those men throw spinning kicks perhaps due to the fact that they are every one of them Muay Thai stylists? They all know how to throw them? Really? I don't think I know better. I think that I know just as well as them that the reason they don't throw many spinning techniques is because they're not proficient in them. You don't seem to grasp what "knowing how to throw" something actually means. Can I throw a spinning hook? Sure. Will I make it work in sparring? Almost certainly not, unless my opponent is much worse than me. Why's that, you ask? Well, it's because I haven't invested the time training with such techniques to make them effective for me and my style.

On the other hand I can use my imagination too. I guess your the non-athletic guy in the class that questions the coach on every little detail he instructs. "Why do I have to do that?", "I read somewhere I should do this", "someone on the internet said I shouldn't do it that way." You know, the type of guy that invents his own Martial Art.

Ah, I see now. You don't ever ask questions. You're that guy. That must be why you refuse to look at evidence--you don't like to think about or understand the martial art you practice. You just do it. It's that simple right?

You've got it, by the way. I am pretty damn unathletic. I ask the coach lots of questions, because I want to make sure I'm doing things right, and I want to understand his instruction. I relish his input when we're doing partner drills, because every little bit that helps me better understand my art is precious to me. You, on the other hand... What? You just do what coach says? You don't care to ever ask why, or how? I think I see the real problem with your argument now, and the reason that you refuse to actually address the substance of evidence brought against your misconceptions. Ad hominem arguments about the people in the videos are easier, right? No need to eat a little crow and admit that some fighters obviously make spinning techniques work for them on a regular basis.

I'm not a pro, and I don't pretend to be. I train with MMA pros, Muay Thai pros, and ex boxing pros. I also watch lots of pro fights, and if the general consensus from guys with 50-60-200 wins is to fight a certain way IT'S CORRECT. I'm not gonna re-invent the wheel over guys with 1000's of fights between them, I'm just gonna try to understand why they do it

Fuck it, stick with your tornado kick into backfist into hook kick.
How does Discipulus-son-do sound

See, here's the problem. You're stuck on the notion that I think I'm some sort of master of spinning techniques. I've said before, I suck at them. Why is it so hard for you to see that, trained properly, they're useful as hell? Do you know Steve Vick's record? What about Benny Urquidez? What about Andy Hug? Peter Graham? Hell, even Badr used to throw his fair share of spinning kicks, before he decided to become a sloppy power puncher instead.

You're not trying to understand why they do what they do. You've already proven that. You prefer the general consensus to any sort of actual observation. Tell me, why do so many Muay Thai fighters throw countless head kicks when there are so few head kick knockouts in Muay Thai? Most are dodged or blocked, and they're sure easy to see coming compared to other strikes, so why are they thrown over and over again? Can you answer that for me?

 

[Discipulus]

I'm more interested in what the Thai boatman with the big foam length in Disc's video has to say about fighting, and I really couldn't give a shit about that.
Back to the Wrestlmania thread with you son.

See, this is what I'm talking about. You're too busy getting offended by the mere fact that someone disagrees with you to actually address what they're saying. Have you tried throwing spinning elbows in sparring? What about other types of strikes? What do you actually have to say about the fact that the close range makes spinning elbows more cumbersome?

 

[NAKMUAY18]

Holzken and Petrosyan are Muay Thai fighters? Really? Not kickboxers? And these guys who are professional fighters, can't throw a back fist!?!

Have you ever trained with a pro? Not a guy who has a day job then gets paid to fight on top, somebody who travels round the world fighting for money. If shoving lucky rabbits feet up their arse made them fight better and get a win bonus they'ed be on it. So if they could win a fight by throwing 10 hook kicks a round they'ed be flinging them out.

When I train if my coach (over 50 wins, vet of Lumpini) tells me to do something, I do it. Why, because he knows better. If I don't understand something, I wait till he comes to correct me then ask for a more in depth explanation. I don't tell him "the Master K vid on the internet told me different" and grab a big foam stick. There has been many times my coach has told me to change something and it hasn't felt right, in the end though it alway felt like I should have been doing it all along.

But hey, just because almost all the most successful full contact pro stand up fighters limit the use of spinning techniques, no reason you shouldn't. Go forth and spin till you make your self sick and when you become ISKA world HW champ with your 20th hook kick of the first round I'll eat a mountain of crows and let Master K beat me with his foam roller.
Out.

 

[Discipulus]

Holzken and Petrosyan are Muay Thai fighters? Really? Not kickboxers? And these guys who are professional fighters, can't throw a back fist!?!

You can call Petrosyan and Holzken kickboxers all you want, but they clearly train and have always fought in a European variant of the Thai style. The only differences between theirs and the predominant Thai style is their increased use of evasive movement and boxing. And you know what, I bet they can't throw a spinning back fist at the proper level to use it multiple times a round, and that's why they don't. You don't seem to be following what I'm saying.

Remember the first time you learned how to throw a rear leg roundhouse kick? And remember when, shortly after that, you tried to throw it in sparring and it never landed? That's because it takes time to learn how to set up your strikes, avoid telegraphing as much as possible, and know the right time to throw them. Is it so hard for you to imagine that spinning techniques are the same way? Now imagine that in those early sparring sessions you were going against a seasoned pro. You'd never make that kick work, not once. And I guarantee you that Giorgio and Nieky don't spend much time drilling spinning techniques, so no. I don't think that they'd be able to throw them. They're most likely at that beginner or early intermediate stage of those techniques, and they fight pros, so why throw spinning strikes when the risk far outweighs the reward?

Why is it so hard to imagine that the styles of these fighters determine the techniques that they employ? I'm sure that they could throw a spinning backfist when shadowboxing. Maybe even occasionally get them to work against their sparring partners. But in a fight? Do you see what I mean? It would be like trying to throw a high right round kick against your opponent when you'd only really trained with your boxing and low kicks. He'd see it coming a mile away.

Have you ever trained with a pro? Not a guy who has a day job then gets paid to fight on top, somebody who travels round the world fighting for money. If shoving lucky rabbits feet up their arse made them fight better and get a win bonus they'ed be on it. So if they could win a fight by throwing 10 hook kicks a round they'ed be flinging them out.

A pro runs my gym, but I've never trained with him on more than a class basis. Please tell me if this makes sense: Those pros don't throw 10 hook kicks a round because they don't know how to throw 10 hook kicks with a reasonable percentage of landing them. Doesn't that make sense? They're already good at a handful of techniques, and they choose to stick with their bread and butter. How does that mean that all techniques they don't use are not effective?

When I train if my coach (over 50 wins, vet of Lumpini) tells me to do something, I do it. Why, because he knows better. If I don't understand something, I wait till he comes to correct me then ask for a more in depth explanation. I don't tell him "the Master K vid on the internet told me different" and grab a big foam stick. There has been many times my coach has told me to change something and it hasn't felt right, in the end though it alway felt like I should have been doing it all along.

Did I say that I tell my coach that I know better? No, I'd never do that. I said I ask my coach about the techniques I'm learning. You really don't do that? Because that makes it sound like you're a phenomenal follower with no capacity for independent thought. All of your reasons for the inefficacy of spinning techniques so far have boiled down to, "If they were any good my favorite fighters would throw them." Basically, you can't see any reason for investing the time in the techniques because strict Muay Thai and Dutch kickboxing stylists that you admire don't use them. That's not evidence for the uselessness of the techniques. That's evidence for the lack of confidence those fighters have for their ability to throw those techniques.

And before you ask again, yes. I think that those pro kickboxers would not be able to land a spinning technique on another pro, not because of the practicality of the technique itself but because of the fighters' specific skill sets and training regimens.

But hey, just because almost all the most successful full contact pro stand up fighters limit the use of spinning techniques, no reason you shouldn't. Go forth and spin till you make your self sick and when you become ISKA world HW champ with your 20th hook kick of the first round I'll eat a mountain of crows and let Master K beat me with his foam roller.
Out.

See, now I have to question your reading comprehension. Can you point out to me when I ever advocated the training methods in that video? That's not my teacher. It's just a video I found on Youtube that I selected because it showed a Thai-style superman punch thrown with good technique, and the girl training obviously has good technique.

And despite your sarcasm, you were accidentally correct in that last bit. Just because many successful fighters don't throw a lot of spinning techniques, there is no reason that others shouldn't.

I'll say this: if you relegate your entire arsenal of techniques to only those that the majority of pro fighters use, then you limit yourself. Worse, you limit martial arts and combat sports as a whole, because you promote the stagnation of fighting techniques, and the evolution of martial arts. Do you know what you get when a martial art stagnates? You get modern Kung Fu, a martial art whose variants are now for the most part more dance competition than combat sport, and whose practitioners believe that their techniques and training methods can defeat any mixed martial artist without the need for full-contact sparring.

So the next time you mock some silly TMA tryhard for claiming that he doesn't need to learn to grapple because the forms that his master taught him have prepared him to face any other "weaker" styles, just remember that you yourself are only a milder version of the same type of person.

 

[Chex31]

I would be more curious to know if a superman punch is allowed in boxing.

Marvin Hagler knocked out Thomas Hearns with one back in The WAR.

Turned orthodox and lunged at him with a right cross.

Greatest superman punch in history.

 

[TheStrikingGuy]

Used to be called a "pivot blow", and was a specialty (along with the rabbit punch) of the original Jack Slack. I believe it was banned quite early under the Queensbury rules, but Bob Fitzsimmons still demonstrated it in his book.

The back hand was legal way up until the thirties though - just watch Max Baer vs Primo Carneira.

 

[barnowl]

There is so much evidence out there that disagrees with this that I don't even know where to begin. Do you actually watch striking arts? Spinning techniques aren't just there for the "unexpected" factor--there are tactical and technical reasons for using spinning attacks. You're basically saying that the right hand in boxing is useless, because it's so far away that it will never land. Yeah, that's true--until you learn how to set it up and when to throw it.

And to those of you saying that superman punches don't or shouldn't ever work... You either don't understand the technique, or you're saying that feints and fakes don't work. In which case, you're dead wrong. Just because people do them poorly in MMA sometimes doesn't mean they have no application. Fake low-strike high is a very sound principle, and I've seen them delivered effectively in high level Muay Thai and kickboxing.

It is not so much, for me any way, that feints and fakes don't work but that super man is neither a feint nor a fake any more; and become such an obvious gimmick technique in it's own right that it has lost most of it's effectiveness. In it's original form it was solid. Solid becuase it the opponent did not react to the feint kick you hit him with it. Now most of the time there is so little threat in the feint kick, that the rest of the combo falls a part becuase it has become such a gimmick shot.

 

[EffeKt]

In Muay Thai I was always taught to never throw a superman punch because its too much of a telegraphed move with high risk and little reward (i.e. puts you off balance for a counter).

So far that has been true to my experiences so far: everytime I see someone throw a superman punch the other person ducks under, shifts to the side and slams a roundhouse into their torso. It is either that, or they duck under and throw an uppercut or move in close and go for the clinch/knee.

 

[Discipulus]

It is not so much, for me any way, that feints and fakes don't work but that super man is neither a feint nor a fake any more; and become such an obvious gimmick technique in it's own right that it has lost most of it's effectiveness. In it's original form it was solid. Solid becuase it the opponent did not react to the feint kick you hit him with it. Now most of the time there is so little threat in the feint kick, that the rest of the combo falls a part becuase it has become such a gimmick shot.

Oh, trust me. I know what you mean. I see people in MMA throw them that never throw kicks. Hell, I saw a video in which Phil Nurse was doing a seminar and teaching the superman jab as GSP throws it. He went on for a bit about how powerful the technique could be, and then added: "Or you can even try and fake the kick."

...what?! How is that not the first thing you say when you teach the technique?! How is that not the primary reason for throwing the kick in the first place? Another video, some guy is saying that it's a powerful punch that you only throw when you opponent is rocked. No. A right hook is a powerful punch. A superman is a faked kick. Good lord.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

Do you have a link to the video?

 

[Discipulus]

Do you have a link to the video?

Prepare to be amazed. Phil Nurse is a pretty highly touted Muay Thai coach, too.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

WOW, never been a huge fan of the way he's changed GSP's stand up, and he has a strange way of holding pads, but this is something else!

 

[Gregolian]

Prepare to be amazed. Phil Nurse is a pretty highly touted Muay Thai coach, too.

WTF was I watching? I remember my Muay Thai coach was talking to us about Superman punches and went:
"If you are going to take the time to fake a kick just to throw a punch right after just throw the kick and have the punch coming right behind it almost at the same time"

 

[AtlSteel]

so what about a spinning forward fist?

:icon_lol::icon_lol:

 

[aries]

Oh, trust me. I know what you mean. I see people in MMA throw them that never throw kicks. Hell, I saw a video in which Phil Nurse was doing a seminar and teaching the superman jab as GSP throws it. He went on for a bit about how powerful the technique could be, and then added: "Or you can even try and fake the kick."

To be fair to Phil and GSP. They way it's thrown there is like a leaping jab. It does look powerful, it does cover a lot of distance and it looks odd so if your opponent is good at reading your jab telegraph, he's going to have a hard time reading this. The way he throws it from a crouched stance looks to me if I was facing him in an MMA match like he's about to shoot a double i.e. low line attack but he comes high. And look at the follow up, just like GSP it's an entry into a clinch for the takedown. And most importantly it does work in MMA, at least for GSP.

If you did that deep lunge set up in MT you'd get a flying knee or teep in your face.

 

[Saenchai]

what........ no.