Wrestling Can Jon Jones out grapple Brian Shaw?

[Lord_Impaler]

Yes he would strangle him near instantaneously

 

[mattemate]

I think the optimal juiced grappler would be around 300 lbs. Clearly there are diminishing returns for most guys above low 200s and Gordon is one of many examples. If more juiced muscle on his 6' 2" frame made him more effective at absolute, he'd be bigger than 240 lbs.

But some guys can pull off the extra weight i.e. Lesnar or 2002 Bob Sapp. 350 lbs jacked Sapp going 13+ minutes with Big Nog was amazing but granted that was with a guy he outweighed by >100 lbs.

I think you start with a dude like Shaw or Hafthor, put them in grappling from a young age and then get on Andre Galvao levels of gear once they're BB. That would put them around 300 lbs but with enough mobility and cardio to wreck shit.

If you start as a 400+ lbs strongman, it's impractical if not impossible to build elite skill when you're big and slow AF. And even if it were possible, you'd still have to slim down to MAYBE 350 to hang with the best guys.

The correct size is whatever Karelin was.
God help us all if he'd been a submission wrestler or jiu-jitsu guy. He'd make Buchecha look like a kid

And I use Karelin seriously as the best example because he's the largest elite grappler/wrestler we've seen. There have been bigger guys but none better. He was 285 in his prime, which sounds a lot like 300 to me.

 

[nonoob]

Brian would have no chance of his newly scratched eyes seeing normally again.

 

[ChickenBrother]

The correct size is whatever Karelin was.
God help us all if he'd been a submission wrestler or jiu-jitsu guy. He'd make Buchecha look like a kid

And I use Karelin seriously as the best example because he's the largest elite grappler/wrestler we've seen. There have been bigger guys but none better. He was 285 in his prime, which sounds a lot like 300 to me.

Yup there are a few examples that point to around 300 lbs. Another one is Mijain Lopez Nunez who won his fifth Olympic gold in Greco Roman last year. He said he gets up to 330 during off-season but trims down to 290 for competition. And there's 6' 8" 300+ lbs super natty Teddy Riner.





Riner competed between 290 and 340 but ended his career around 315-320 which his trainers believed was ideal. Now these guys were all genetic freaks and when you're talking outliers, all bets are off.

Back when HW was uncapped, Chris Taylor went 87-0-1 at Iowa State and won 2x D1 national titles at 6' 5" 412 lbs. He represented USA at the 1972 Olympics as a 22 yo junior in both freestyle and greco.



He's famous for getting suplexed by Wilfried Dietrich in the greco event but he took bronze in freestyle the week earlier, only losing 2-3 to Russian GOAT and 2x defending Olympic champ Alexandr Medved in the semis. And Taylor only lost that match due to fat shaming:

Taylor won the bronze medal at the 1972 Olympics in freestyle wrestling. He lost only to Aleksandr Medved. It appeared Medved was stalling, but the referee awarded a point to the Soviet, charging Taylor with a lack of action. Later admitting that he felt sorry for Medved because of Taylor's size, the referee was dismissed from the Olympic tournament and banned from international officiating. In the Greco-Roman competition, Taylor was unexpectedly suplexed and pinned by a much lighter Wilfried Dietrich, whom he defeated a week before in the freestyle contest.

Chris Taylor (wrestler) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Given how mobile he was at 400+ lbs, I wonder how much more effective a guy like Chris Taylor could have been had he never discovered the neverending buffet at Golden Corral and slimmed down to around 350.

 

[ssBaldy]

I think the optimal juiced grappler would be around 300 lbs. Clearly there are diminishing returns for most guys above low 200s and Gordon is one of many examples. If more juiced muscle on his 6' 2" frame made him more effective at absolute, he'd be bigger than 240 lbs.

But some guys can pull off the extra weight i.e. Lesnar or 2002 Bob Sapp. 350 lbs jacked Sapp going 13+ minutes with Big Nog was amazing but granted that was with a guy he outweighed by >100 lbs.

I think you start with a dude like Shaw or Hafthor, put them in grappling from a young age and then get on Andre Galvao levels of gear once they're BB. That would put them around 300 lbs but with enough mobility and cardio to wreck shit.

If you start as a 400+ lbs strongman, it's impractical if not impossible to build elite skill when you're big and slow AF. And even if it were possible, you'd still have to slim down to MAYBE 350 to hang with the best guys.

Optimal juiced grappler is Alexander Karelin. No theoreticals needed, we witnessed it.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Optimal juiced grappler is Alexander Karelin. No theoreticals needed, we witnessed it.

I can't disagree because he was a fucking force of nature. But on balance, the heavyweight limit in FILA/UWW was uncapped until the late 80's. But since 1988 the greco heavyweight limit has alternated between 130 and 120 kg. Karelin competed when it was 130 kg so 286 lbs was the limit with same day weigh ins. There could have been an even bigger badass out there than Karelin who couldn't make the weight limit. 7 foot, 399 lbs Zangief from Street Fighter II MAYBE could have taken him.

And ditto for Mijain Lopez Nunez. That dude also had to make 286 lbs for his last 3 Olympic golds and started out having to make 120 kg/275 lbs.

Judo HW has always been unlimited, and we've seen some dominant champs over 300 lbs, Teddy Riner being the biggest with his heaviest comp weight around 330 lbs.

 

[surgeyou1]

Yes. The skill difference is enough to offset the strength. Shaw would gas out in two minutes

 

[JonnyBonesPharmacist]

Out grapple? Weight really matters in grappling, so maybe Shaw could win. In a fight tho .....Bones would kill him

 

[Trabaho]

Yup there are a few examples that point to around 300 lbs. Another one is Mijain Lopez Nunez who won his fifth Olympic gold in Greco Roman last year. He said he gets up to 330 during off-season but trims down to 290 for competition. And there's 6' 8" 300+ lbs super natty Teddy Riner.

View attachment 1091236

View attachment 1091241

Riner competed between 290 and 340 but ended his career around 315-320 which his trainers believed was ideal. Now these guys were all genetic freaks and when you're talking outliers, all bets are off.

Back when HW was uncapped, Chris Taylor went 87-0-1 at Iowa State and won 2x D1 national titles at 6' 5" 412 lbs. He represented USA at the 1972 Olympics as a 22 yo junior in both freestyle and greco.

View attachment 1091247

He's famous for getting suplexed by Wilfried Dietrich in the greco event but he took bronze in freestyle the week earlier, only losing 2-3 to Russian GOAT and 2x defending Olympic champ Alexandr Medved in the semis. And Taylor only lost that match due to fat shaming:

Taylor won the bronze medal at the 1972 Olympics in freestyle wrestling. He lost only to Aleksandr Medved. It appeared Medved was stalling, but the referee awarded a point to the Soviet, charging Taylor with a lack of action. Later admitting that he felt sorry for Medved because of Taylor's size, the referee was dismissed from the Olympic tournament and banned from international officiating. In the Greco-Roman competition, Taylor was unexpectedly suplexed and pinned by a much lighter Wilfried Dietrich, whom he defeated a week before in the freestyle contest.

Chris Taylor (wrestler) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Given how mobile he was at 400+ lbs, I wonder how much more effective a guy like Chris Taylor could have been had he never discovered the neverending buffet at Golden Corral and slimmed down to around 350.

wtf he is just fat so thats why small guys on sherdog hate on us big fat guys, you can´t beat us. This guy is so fat noone can wrestle him. Maybe I shouldn´t lose weight and stay fat big. The athleticism of being fat is being able to still move, no joke. Mighty mouse is a mouse for a reason.

 

[Trabaho]

Jones wins, outsmarts him, burst some clever take down, than Brain gasses and gets subbmited 3x in a rown in a few minutes and quits form exchaustion. Jon 5-0 in like 7 minutes.

 

[ChickenBrother]

wtf he is just fat so thats why small guys on sherdog hate on us big fat guys, you can´t beat us. This guy is so fat noone can wrestle him. Maybe I shouldn´t lose weight and stay fat big. The athleticism of being fat is being able to still move, no joke. Mighty mouse is a mouse for a reason.

Yo momma so fat, during a full moon she turns into a warehouse.

 

[Trabaho]

Yo momma so fat, during a full moon she turns into a warehouse.

Focus on me. I am so fat I don't need technique to keep you down.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Focus on me. I am so fat I don't need technique to keep you down.

That's what she said.

 

[colorles]

Worlds strongest man with the same grappling abilities of an elite UFC heavy weight? Good thing that would be next to impossible to achieve. If eddie hall literally had the exact same abilities I don't see how the smaller man (Aspinal) would win.

He doesn't though, so naturally Tom played with him, just like how Jones would easily defeat Brian.

Eddie Hall is WAY over muscled. His cardio would be absolute shit even with a shit ton of epo.

 

[colorles]

Yup there are a few examples that point to around 300 lbs. Another one is Mijain Lopez Nunez who won his fifth Olympic gold in Greco Roman last year. He said he gets up to 330 during off-season but trims down to 290 for competition. And there's 6' 8" 300+ lbs super natty Teddy Riner.

View attachment 1091236

View attachment 1091241

Riner competed between 290 and 340 but ended his career around 315-320 which his trainers believed was ideal. Now these guys were all genetic freaks and when you're talking outliers, all bets are off.

Back when HW was uncapped, Chris Taylor went 87-0-1 at Iowa State and won 2x D1 national titles at 6' 5" 412 lbs. He represented USA at the 1972 Olympics as a 22 yo junior in both freestyle and greco.

View attachment 1091247

He's famous for getting suplexed by Wilfried Dietrich in the greco event but he took bronze in freestyle the week earlier, only losing 2-3 to Russian GOAT and 2x defending Olympic champ Alexandr Medved in the semis. And Taylor only lost that match due to fat shaming:

Taylor won the bronze medal at the 1972 Olympics in freestyle wrestling. He lost only to Aleksandr Medved. It appeared Medved was stalling, but the referee awarded a point to the Soviet, charging Taylor with a lack of action. Later admitting that he felt sorry for Medved because of Taylor's size, the referee was dismissed from the Olympic tournament and banned from international officiating. In the Greco-Roman competition, Taylor was unexpectedly suplexed and pinned by a much lighter Wilfried Dietrich, whom he defeated a week before in the freestyle contest.

Chris Taylor (wrestler) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Given how mobile he was at 400+ lbs, I wonder how much more effective a guy like Chris Taylor could have been had he never discovered the neverending buffet at Golden Corral and slimmed down to around 350.

Riner's physique and competition weight is definitely achievable without PED's. He looks about what 300 lbs of muscle should look like at 6'8''. Not saying he wasn't using PED's of course. Just saying that that is an achievable physique with the right frame for it, healthy testosterone/androgen receptors, and a proper training regimen/caloric excess training diet.

As for weight caps: I've never been for weight caps in any combat sports. I understand why they are done - namely to keep athletes from looking like sumo wrestlers - but it still takes away from what a heavyweight competition should be; namely, an open weight competition.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Riner's physique and competition weight is definitely achievable without PED's. He looks about what 300 lbs of muscle should look like at 6'8''. Not saying he wasn't using PED's of course. Just saying that that is an achievable physique with the right frame for it, healthy testosterone/androgen receptors, and a proper training regimen/caloric excess training diet.

As for weight caps: I've never been for weight caps in any combat sports. I understand why they are done - namely to keep athletes from looking like sumo wrestlers - but it still takes away from what a heavyweight competition should be; namely, an open weight competition.

Oh yeah, he's as suspect (or clean) as any other pro athlete, the eye test being notoriously unreliable of course. In the pics I posted, his traps and shoulders look like they could be natty to me.

As an Olympic athlete, he's been subject to USADA testing like UFC athletes used to be. Dude is a generational athlete with 1 in a million+ genetics and I don't want to take anything away from him. But if I had to guess, I'd say he probably started out clean but all bets are off once he achieved enough wealth and fame to get around the testing. He hit a slump after 30 and then he started taking vacations in Morocco. It was shown in a documentary that returning to France after one of those vacations, he had mysteriously gained 20 lbs without increasing bf %.

Olympic Judo Champion Teddy Riner Praises Morocco as Training Haven

Teddy Riner, a French judoka who won a gold medal at the Paris Olympic Games, cannot help but declare his love for Marrakech and all of Morocco.

en.bladi.net

 

[Trabaho]

That's what she said.

I just lay on you you can't get up. But I refuse to go a second time cause I gass. Nah if you good at bjj you should beat me I did a bit grappling like 15 years ago. I probably gas out 5 minute into rolling. Who knows maybe I get 10 minutes in me from lifting weights and doing cardio

 

[Da Speeit]

yes

This

 

[Intermission]

Cardio would be shit . T

Hugh? World strongest men have endurance competitions, not just raw lifts

 

[Intermission]

If you've ever grappled you'd know the answer to this.

There's levels to the game, and strenght/size/cardio does not solve that.

Marcello Garcia won ADCC absolute at 77kg (170 lbs) in 2011, was second in 2009 and 2007 and third in 2005. And that's against the elite of the elite heavyweight black belts, in contrairy to your example of a 6 month trained 350lbs dude.

He got squished by Roger Gracie who is not a superior technican.