Wrestling Can Jon Jones out grapple Brian Shaw?

[Hhyton]

Brian got the size and strength and 6 months training grappling and weighs about 350 lbs

 

[randomg1t]

yes

 

[Kal-El]

Yes. Eddie Hall in his own words after grappling with Aspinall says his strength didn't help him at all.

 

[yetanother]

Yes. Eddie Hall in his own words after grappling with Aspinall says his strength didn't help him at all.

Aspinall would out grapple Eddie if they had equal technique.

 

[Kal-El]

Aspinall would out grapple Eddie if they had equal technique.

Worlds strongest man with the same grappling abilities of an elite UFC heavy weight? Good thing that would be next to impossible to achieve. If eddie hall literally had the exact same abilities I don't see how the smaller man (Aspinal) would win.

He doesn't though, so naturally Tom played with him, just like how Jones would easily defeat Brian.

 

[yetanother]

Worlds strongest man with the same grappling abilities of an elite UFC heavy weight? Good thing that would be next to impossible to achieve. If eddie hall literally had the exact same abilities I don't see how the smaller man (Aspinal) would win.

He doesn't though, so naturally Tom played with him, just like how Jones would easily defeat Brian.

Strength is not the only phyysical attribute. Like if they Tom was downgraded to his skill level. Pudzianowski fights in KSW and while he turned mid level juice fiend heavyweight with a smidgen of skill when started out he was gassing out all the time.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Worlds strongest man with the same grappling abilities of an elite UFC heavy weight? Good thing that would be next to impossible to achieve. If eddie hall literally had the exact same abilities I don't see how the smaller man (Aspinal) would win.

He doesn't though, so naturally Tom played with him, just like how Jones would easily defeat Brian.

Strength is not the only phyysical attribute. Like if they Tom was downgraded to his skill level. Pudzianowski fights in KSW and while he turned mid level juice fiend heavyweight with a smidgen of skill when started out he was gassing out all the time.

I think the optimal juiced grappler would be around 300 lbs. Clearly there are diminishing returns for most guys above low 200s and Gordon is one of many examples. If more juiced muscle on his 6' 2" frame made him more effective at absolute, he'd be bigger than 240 lbs.

But some guys can pull off the extra weight i.e. Lesnar or 2002 Bob Sapp. 350 lbs jacked Sapp going 13+ minutes with Big Nog was amazing but granted that was with a guy he outweighed by >100 lbs.

I think you start with a dude like Shaw or Hafthor, put them in grappling from a young age and then get on Andre Galvao levels of gear once they're BB. That would put them around 300 lbs but with enough mobility and cardio to wreck shit.

If you start as a 400+ lbs strongman, it's impractical if not impossible to build elite skill when you're big and slow AF. And even if it were possible, you'd still have to slim down to MAYBE 350 to hang with the best guys.

 

[NoSmilez]

I think Shaw is too big and old. He doesn't have a base in terms of combat sports. The smaller strongmen like Licis or Mitchell Hooper can make an easier transition into grappling. They are not too big and they have athletic background.

Shaw doesn't have the best balance but he can at least touch his toes.

 

[yetanother]

I think the optimal juiced grappler would be around 300 lbs. Clearly there are diminishing returns for most guys above low 200s and Gordon is one of many examples. If more juiced muscle on his 6' 2" frame made him more effective at absolute, he'd be bigger than 240 lbs.

But some guys can pull off the extra weight i.e. Lesnar or 2002 Bob Sapp. 350 lbs jacked Sapp going 13+ minutes with Big Nog was amazing. But that was with a guy he outweighed by >100 lbs.

I think you start with a dude like Shaw or Hafthor, put them in grappling from a young age and then get on Andre Galvao levels of gear once they're BB. That would put them around 300 lbs but with enough mobility and cardio to wreck shit.

If you start as a 400+ lbs strongman, it's impractical if not impossible to build elite skill when you're big and slow AF. And even if it were possible, you'd still have to slim down to MAYBE 350 to hang with the best guys.

Gordon has stomache problems so has problems stuffing himself with food to bulk up and has to sacrifice health for size. He doesn't need to maximize his size advantage just get enough to the point where he can overpower the skilled people. There are like a handful of heavyweight that don't suck that he has to contend with.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Gordon has stomache problems so has problems stuffing himself with food to bulk up and has to sacrifice health for size. He doesn't need to maximize his size advantage just get enough to the point where he can overpower the skilled people. There are like a handful of heavyweight that don't suck that he has to contend with.

Understood but even without his stomach issues, you think he'd be much bigger than he is? If more size was really an advantage, wouldn't other top absolute guys like Victor Hugo, Meregali, etc. be bigger? I don't think there are many (if any) top absolute competitors over even 260 lbs.

 

[HunterAcosta]

Cardio would be shit . They’d be good at anaerobic stuff but aerobic would be dogshit. At bjj gi or no gi? Could possibly be good cause bar for athleticism is lower than other sports . Wrestling ? No fuckin way . They may get worked by a good high school heavyweight wrestler let alone college or international, Greco , folk style or Freestyle. Judo ? No chance . Somebody like Teddy Riner absolutely demolishes them .

 

[Invisible Jiu Jitsu]

yes

 

[NoSmilez]

 

[Jaddy45]

Yes. Eddie Hall in his own words after grappling with Aspinall says his strength didn't help him at all.

Says every strong dude ever.

 

[shunyata]

Understood but even without his stomach issues, you think he'd be much bigger than he is? If more size was really an advantage, wouldn't other top absolute guys like Victor Hugo, Meregali, etc. be bigger? I don't think there are many (if any) top absolute competitors over even 260 lbs.

240-260 in shape with good cardio has been the peak for open weight submission grappling in the modern era. Even outside the UFC at open weight events in IBJJF and ADCC, they generally aren't being won by guys bigger than that range.

 

[ChickenBrother]

240-260 in shape with good cardio has been the peak for open weight submission grappling in the modern era. Even outside the UFC at open weight events in IBJJF and ADCC, they generally aren't being won by guys bigger than that range.

Yup, and it's interesting that even in untested events like ADCC, that effective weight constraint around 260 lbs seems to remain. But I am curious how much heavier you could really be if you start with a genetic freak who is tall as fuck. Someone like 6' 8" Teddy Riner for instance, had he dedicated himself to BJJ from a young age I think could have been a force weighing low 300's.

 

[shunyata]

Yup, and it's interesting that even in untested events like ADCC, that effective weight constraint around 260 lbs seems to remain. But I am curious how much heavier you could really be if you start with a genetic freak who is tall as fuck. Someone like 6' 8" Teddy Riner for instance, had he dedicated himself to BJJ from a young age I think could have been a force weighing low 300's.

Teddy might be a generational talent who also benefited from absurd genetics.

In my experience as a 6'3" 260 lb jiujiteiro, I get much better returns from improving technique than I would from trying to cram 60 more lbs of muscle onto my frame.

I think that's the reality of it. Mass matters, weight class matters, but at ultra heavyweight / over 99 kg divisions when you lose it's due to technical mistakes. Sometimes endurance. You don't generally lose from not being strong enough.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Teddy might be a generational talent who also benefited from absurd genetics.

In my experience as a 6'3" 260 lb jiujiteiro, I get much better returns from improving technique than I would from trying to cram 60 more lbs of muscle onto my frame.

I think that's the reality of it. Mass matters, weight class matters, but at ultra heavyweight / over 99 kg divisions when you lose it's due to technical mistakes. Sometimes endurance. You don't generally lose from not being strong enough.

Yeah and that's consistent with my observations and experience. In pretty much any ruleset that involves sustained grappling, any weight over around 260 seems to be a net detriment for 99% of folks. And even 260 is probably heavier than ideal for most HWs.

 

[kintana]

Yes, for sure. I even saw this weekend a 60 KG wrestler take down a 130 KG guy and tire him out.

 

[whooty]

If you've ever grappled you'd know the answer to this.

There's levels to the game, and strenght/size/cardio does not solve that.

Marcello Garcia won ADCC absolute at 77kg (170 lbs) in 2011, was second in 2009 and 2007 and third in 2005. And that's against the elite of the elite heavyweight black belts, in contrairy to your example of a 6 month trained 350lbs dude.