Social Can fine art go too far, crossing over to indecency?

wwkirk

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In ancient times, King Candaules figured that his wife was the HOTTEST OF THE HOT. He felt this so strongly that he wanted to share her beauty with someone. (Just to look of course.) Well, not all kings are like Arthur with a crew of buddies. This king’s only real friend was his bodyguard, Gyges. Cutting to the chase the King compelled Gyges to hide in the royal bedroom and to peep at the Queen as she undressed for bed, but not to get caught, obviously.

Well, Gyges did, albeit reluctantly, gaze upon the Queen in all her glory.

However, the Queen saw that he saw….

The rest of the story is pretty good, but I’ll leave it to you to find out what happens. I also recommend checking of the slightly related Ring of Gyges legend; it's as much fun.

This post is about whether art can go too far with respect to “common decency”. It’s directly inspired by the story described above. In 1830 established artist William Etty first exhibited the painting at the Royal Academy. Right out of the gate, “CANDAULES was condemned by the press as a cynical combination of a pornographic picture and a violent and unpleasant narrative, and there was near-unanimous consensus that the picture was inappropriate for public exhibition.”

At the time The Literary Gazette condemned the work as "against decency and good taste", adding that “as an academic study, the central figure of this group might be admissible; but, in connexion with the disgraceful story, it deserves to be warmly reprehended". La Belle Assemblée, one of Britain's most influential women's magazines, praised Etty's other exhibits, but refused to review Candaules altogether, saying that "to us the subject is so offensive that we pass it over". Even Samuel Carter Hall, editor of the prestigious Art Journal, declined to distribute reproductions of Candaules, despite his willingness to publish reproductions of other provocative Etty nudes such as “Female Bathers Surprised by a Swan”.

Looking back, a present day commentator impugned Etty's motives. In 2011 Sarah Burnage of the University of York wrote "it is perhaps hard to see the painting as anything but a deliberate attempt by the artist to shock and scandalise".

My favorite judgment though is this one from the 1882 Vanity Fair,
"I know only too well how the rough and his female companion behave in front of pictures such as Etty's bather. I have seen the gangs of workmen strolling round, and I know that their artistic interest in studies of the nude is emphatically embarrassing."

So, naturally, the point of this is to get your opinion about this painting.

1. Is it (disguised) porn?
2. Is it possibly not porn per se, but still not conducive to the public good to bring attention to it?
3. Taking a different tack one might suggest that IF ONLY it were still offensive. A society that DOES find such depictions offensive is a better one than ours.
4. Or going the opposite direction, “Screw those hoity-toity stuffed shirts! Their wealth doesn’t make them the arbiters of values or decency for everybody else.”

Oh, before I forget, the painting:
William_Etty_(1787–1849)_–_Candaules,_King_of_Lydia,_Shews_his_Wife_by_Stealth_to_Gyges,_One_o...jpg
 
You’re asking if that painting is porn? No. Not unless you’re a puritan… or a conservative.
 
Unfortunately, Justice Potter Stewart isn't around anymore to answer this question for us.
 
In ancient times, King Candaules figured that his wife was the HOTTEST OF THE HOT. He felt this so strongly that he wanted to share her beauty with someone. (Just to look of course.) Well, not all kings are like Arthur with a crew of buddies. This king’s only real friend was his bodyguard, Gyges. Cutting to the chase the King compelled Gyges to hide in the royal bedroom and to peep at the Queen as she undressed for bed, but not to get caught, obviously.

Well, Gyges did, albeit reluctantly, gaze upon the Queen in all her glory.

However, the Queen saw that he saw….

The rest of the story is pretty good, but I’ll leave it to you to find out what happens. I also recommend checking of the slightly related Ring of Gyges legend; it's as much fun.

This post is about whether art can go too far with respect to “common decency”. It’s directly inspired by the story described above. In 1830 established artist William Etty first exhibited the painting at the Royal Academy. Right out of the gate, “CANDAULES was condemned by the press as a cynical combination of a pornographic picture and a violent and unpleasant narrative, and there was near-unanimous consensus that the picture was inappropriate for public exhibition.”

At the time The Literary Gazette condemned the work as "against decency and good taste", adding that “as an academic study, the central figure of this group might be admissible; but, in connexion with the disgraceful story, it deserves to be warmly reprehended". La Belle Assemblée, one of Britain's most influential women's magazines, praised Etty's other exhibits, but refused to review Candaules altogether, saying that "to us the subject is so offensive that we pass it over". Even Samuel Carter Hall, editor of the prestigious Art Journal, declined to distribute reproductions of Candaules, despite his willingness to publish reproductions of other provocative Etty nudes such as “Female Bathers Surprised by a Swan”.

Looking back, a present day commentator impugned Etty's motives. In 2011 Sarah Burnage of the University of York wrote "it is perhaps hard to see the painting as anything but a deliberate attempt by the artist to shock and scandalise".

My favorite judgment though is this one from the 1882 Vanity Fair,
"I know only too well how the rough and his female companion behave in front of pictures such as Etty's bather. I have seen the gangs of workmen strolling round, and I know that their artistic interest in studies of the nude is emphatically embarrassing."

So, naturally, the point of this is to get your opinion about this painting.

1. Is it (disguised) porn?
2. Is it possibly not porn per se, but still not conducive to the public good to bring attention to it?
3. Taking a different tack one might suggest that IF ONLY it were still offensive. A society that DOES find such depictions offensive is a better one than ours.
4. Or going the opposite direction, “Screw those hoity-toity stuffed shirts! Their wealth doesn’t make them the arbiters of values or decency for everybody else.”

Oh, before I forget, the painting:
I pick number 3.

I pick number 4 too, but the "hoity toity" in this case is self fart sniffing artists sustaining a living off of the tax evading rich.
 
So, naturally, the point of this is to get your opinion about this painting.

1. Is it (disguised) porn?
2. Is it possibly not porn per se, but still not conducive to the public good to bring attention to it?
3. Taking a different tack one might suggest that IF ONLY it were still offensive. A society that DOES find such depictions offensive is a better one than ours.
4. Or going the opposite direction, “Screw those hoity-toity stuffed shirts! Their wealth doesn’t make them the arbiters of values or decency for everybody else.”
The basic idea that general sexual repression is good for society I would not tend to go along with as if you like at things like rape and teen pregnancy they seem to be more common in more conservative cultures, in a more general sense I think its a very powerful form of control that organised religion has depended on for thousands of years.

I would argue a big issue in the arts though has tended to be that a lot of the culture(especially in the UK and the US which are more strongly puritanical) has basically avoided facing this question head on. Instead whats tended to happen is that such art has been de eroticised by critics with the claim that it isnt intended to be erotic at all, granted some art with nudity in it isnt intended to be erotic but I think some of it clearly is and I would argue the idea that something can be either "art or porn" is really a false argument. That something intended to be erotic can have no value beyond that is I think clearly a false position.
 
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The basic idea that general sexual repression is good for society I would not tend to go along with as if you like at things like rape and teen pregnancy they seem to be more common in more conservative cultures, in a more general sense I think its a very powerful form of control that organised religion has depended on for thousands of years.

I would argue a big issue in the arts though has tended to be that a lot of the culture(especially in the UK and the US which are more strongly puritanical) has basically avoided facing this question had on. Instead whats tended to happen is that such art has been de eroticised by critics with the claim that it isnt intended to be erotic at all, granted some art with nudity in it isnt intended to be erotic but I think some of it clearly is and I would argue the idea that something can be either "art or porn" is really a false argument. That something intended to be erotic can have no value beyond that is I think clearly a false position.
I agree with much of this. As I look over some of the disparaging remarks, I wonder how much of it is class-centric? Is the distaste (in the eyes of the critics) particularly because the the woman is high status? If the painting depicted the archetypal fishwife, would the same criticisms be leveled?
 
I pick number 3.

I pick number 4 too, but the "hoity toity" in this case is self fart sniffing artists sustaining a living off of the tax evading rich.
I'm inclined towards 3 myself.
As for #4, I guess I'd say the self-fart sniffers and the rich tax evaders deserve each other.
 
Sure it can, but that's a pretty tame example. "Artists" are very often just mentally ill perverts pretending their creepy fantasies are some deep statement or it's somehow cool because it's more expensive than normal porn. The houses of anybody with an extensive art collection are usually them testing the waters with some innocuous nature or abstract shit near the front of the house to set the tone that they're just an art fan, then it suddenly devolves into paintings of kids' asses or some lady with her tits out or a naked sculpture, and the bathroom always has a painting with some kind of nudity. It doesn't take long to find out how many "artists" are just perverts with a paint brush.
 
Sure it can, but that's a pretty tame example. "Artists" are very often just mentally ill perverts pretending their creepy fantasies are some deep statement or it's somehow cool because it's more expensive than normal porn. The houses of anybody with an extensive art collection are usually them testing the waters with some innocuous nature or abstract shit near the front of the house to set the tone that they're just an art fan, then it suddenly devolves into paintings of kids' asses or some lady with her tits out or a naked sculpture, and the bathroom always has a painting with some kind of nudity. It doesn't take long to find out how many "artists" are just perverts with a paint brush.
Interesting. How far do you take this? Some have taken the stance that any depiction of nudity in art at bottom betrays prurient interest. And I suppose a Freudian would concur. But then what about the huge percentage of classical art which incorporates nudity?

paintings of kids' asses

I also wonder about the concept of innocence. I can remember when virtually no one considered this offensive.
grid-cell-22658-1404792735-5.jpg
 
tell me more about this peepingeth Thomas

The Queen knew about the voyeur, but pretended she had seen nothing. The next night she approached Gyges the bodyguard in private.

She told him that she knew everything and he had two options to remedy the shame he had brought upon her. For he had seen her as only her husband should see her.

1) kill himself

or

2) murder the asshole king and become her husband

He went with option 2.
 
No, you have to see it in the context obviously. I'm all in on Viennese Actionism.
 
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The Queen knew about the voyeur, but pretended she had seen nothing. The next night she approached Gyges the bodyguard in private.

She told him that she knew everything and he had two options to remedy the shame he had brought upon her. For he had seen her as only her husband should see her.

1) kill himself

or

2) murder the asshole king and become her husband

He went with option 2.
Smart guy, we could've been friends.
 
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