Butterfly Guard; Marcelo vs Wardzinski?

Zankou said:
I’n not sure that most bjj schools are run in a way that really lets you learn Marcelo’s style. The constant attacking and never giving anything up approach, even in the initial grip fighting. It is hard to run a school where people roll that way. I’m curious how Marcelo learned it, because most schools would get pissy over that style of rolling.
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He came up in Brazil quite a while ago. You need a comp class for it today IMO.

Now even his school is much more reserved. I don't think they allow rolling til you have a couple stripes.
 
Zankou said:
I’n not sure that most bjj schools are run in a way that really lets you learn Marcelo’s style. The constant attacking and never giving anything up approach, even in the initial grip fighting. It is hard to run a school where people roll that way. I’m curious how Marcelo learned it, because most schools would get pissy over that style of rolling.
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I train at a Marcelo school, its one of the coaches A games and i'd say there is still only 2 or 3 coloured belt guys who've managed to successfully play it from White Belt. Even then they mostly end up in SLX from it rather than playing an out-and-out Butterfly game. I think you either need a bunch of guys willing to fail to the point of despair or just be lucky to have a few who it clicks with like most things. For everyone else i think its a hard mentality to have unless you've wrestled or are really athletic and explosive. Most hobbyist beginners certainly won't walk in the door with the necessary mentality obviously. (I suck at it badly btw.)

Adam Wardzinski was there recently doing a 2 day seminar and it was really interesting seeing the contrast in approaches to Butterfly. I can certainly see how his game fits more easily in the framework most people are already learning based on multiple points of control, distance management etc.
 
GordoBarraBJJ said:
Is it on BJJ Fantics or somewhere else?
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Bjj fantics. Eddie Cummings has one that's really good for the 24 dollars on digistu as well. He gives a kinda spiritual cliff notes version to the danaher set.
 
GordoBarraBJJ said:
Thanks - years ago I bought those Marcelo books and started trying to use his BF game - then I ended up losing the books in a flood and kinda lost focus on that part (would play it here and there) but since mostly everyone is a guard puller nowadays I've pretty much worked on my passing more than anything and have kinda of come up with a mishmash of slower pressure passing, a few speed passes, and that floating style (using your hands, head, and legs to post and avoid the sweep).

But have recently wanted to start working on my guard more as it sucks.

I'm no a leg locker - outside of opportunistic kneebars or straight ankle locks here and there. Not sure I can handle trying to sit through a Danaher instructional.
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It sounds like we have similar passing styles. I’ve been using BJJScout’s Maia and Murilo Santana vids as a point of reference and it changed my game completely. I feel that Gordon/Danaher are much more than leg lockers - what they’ve done is created a system of how to play SLX and butterfly guard so you’re very comfortable in a variety of scenarios. I used to avoid the leg game completely (i’m at a “IBJJF gym”) but have dabbled and it made my guards more positional entry based as opposed to just sweeping based. I’m also figuring out passes from the saddle now.

Just my 2cents. Hope it helps.
 
KenkaBancho said:
It sounds like we have similar passing styles. I’ve been using BJJScout’s Maia and Murilo Santana.
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For me:
The Maia one for sure, The Penn one, and the Lo, as well as the Paul Schreiner Pressure Passing DVD and the Long Step Seminar from Bruno Frazzato
 
Zankou said:
I’n not sure that most bjj schools are run in a way that really lets you learn Marcelo’s style. The constant attacking and never giving anything up approach, even in the initial grip fighting. It is hard to run a school where people roll that way. I’m curious how Marcelo learned it, because most schools would get pissy over that style of rolling.
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There are vids of Marcelo’s comp class on his IG. It’s super aggressive especially when his named black belts are involved (esp Diniz). I wouldn’t want to be rolling next to him for sure.
 
GordoBarraBJJ said:
Is it on BJJ Fantics or somewhere else?
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Giles has a great open guard series on Grapplers Guide. Probably still $89, it's an unbelievable value for that price- might need a promo code.

He has a series on not getting swept on there to.

Jon thomas, Craig Jones, Travis Stevens, JT and his wrestling coach both have stuff and there's much more.
 
NSchoke said:
Giles has a great open guard series on Grapplers Guide. Probably still $89, it's an unbelievable value for that price- might need a promo code.

He has a series on not getting swept on there to.

Jon thomas, Craig Jones, Travis Stevens, JT and his wrestling coach both have stuff and there's much more.
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This is good info.

I get kinda sad that I picked up BJJ late (started in my early 30s training at an mma gym). I see these young kids and they're so fluid and good already. Oh well, I'll just keep doing my thing - I'm okay with the fact I'll never be a world champ as it is just for fun and personal gain at this point in my life (training BJJ).
 
GordoBarraBJJ said:
This is good info.

I get kinda sad that I picked up BJJ late (started in my early 30s training at an mma gym). I see these young kids and they're so fluid and good already. Oh well, I'll just keep doing my thing - I'm okay with the fact I'll never be a world champ as it is just for fun and personal gain at this point in my life (training BJJ).
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That's 99.99% of us so don't feel bad.

I been training like 16 years and just turned 40. I'm happy to have access to all this information, it's nuts.

Trying to figure out how to stay young/uninjured-
 
Marcelo has always been one of my favorites and I had trouble with his style of butterfly for a long time. It finally clicked for me when I realized you can't play it like you do other guards. It doesn't work if you do it "step 1, step 2, step 3" style. I started in Judo and IMO its much more like that than a traditional guard. Once you get 1 grip you have to try to sweep. Don't worry if the grip isn't perfect, just try the sweep quickly before they can adjust and if it doesn't work do another sweep and another until you eventually get them. If you imagine its like in Judo when you get a strange grip, you have 1 second to throw. Its the same concept. I wasted so much time tying to get the perfect grip, position, etc, but IMO its more about timing and catching them off guard. If they don't know the direction of the sweep or the grip you'll take its really hard to defend.

I don't think you need to be super athletic to play this way, but its not for everyone. If you're someone who likes to be slow and methodical, or dislikes scrambles/chaining sweeps, its not going to work. I think in the free video he posted on youtube he kind of explains it, but I think a lot of people just aren't used to playing BJJ that way. It kind of takes a shift in mentality.

On another note, grapplers guide is great and if you want another perspective on the butterfly guard check out Lachlan's stuff on there.
 
Chandler sama said:
I don't think you need to be super athletic to play this way, but its not for everyone. If you're someone who likes to be slow and methodical, or dislikes scrambles/chaining sweeps, its not going to work. I think in the free video he posted on youtube he kind of explains it, but I think a lot of people just aren't used to playing BJJ that way. It kind of takes a shift in mentality.
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For sure. Basically Attack, Attack till you get what you want (sweep, submission).
 
Chandler sama said:
Marcelo has always been one of my favorites and I had trouble with his style of butterfly for a long time. It finally clicked for me when I realized you can't play it like you do other guards. It doesn't work if you do it "step 1, step 2, step 3" style. I started in Judo and IMO its much more like that than a traditional guard. Once you get 1 grip you have to try to sweep. Don't worry if the grip isn't perfect, just try the sweep quickly before they can adjust and if it doesn't work do another sweep and another until you eventually get them. If you imagine its like in Judo when you get a strange grip, you have 1 second to throw. Its the same concept. I wasted so much time tying to get the perfect grip, position, etc, but IMO its more about timing and catching them off guard. If they don't know the direction of the sweep or the grip you'll take its really hard to defend.

I don't think you need to be super athletic to play this way, but its not for everyone. If you're someone who likes to be slow and methodical, or dislikes scrambles/chaining sweeps, its not going to work. I think in the free video he posted on youtube he kind of explains it, but I think a lot of people just aren't used to playing BJJ that way. It kind of takes a shift in mentality.

On another note, grapplers guide is great and if you want another perspective on the butterfly guard check out Lachlan's stuff on there.
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yeah if u watch him doing it he doesnt do it slow like other sweeps he hits it hard and fast i mean.. his primary control or use to b was collar and elbow post thats not great control anyways form that position so yeah you gotta take advantage of it fast
 
Chandler sama said:
Marcelo has always been one of my favorites and I had trouble with his style of butterfly for a long time. It finally clicked for me when I realized you can't play it like you do other guards. It doesn't work if you do it "step 1, step 2, step 3" style. I started in Judo and IMO its much more like that than a traditional guard. Once you get 1 grip you have to try to sweep. Don't worry if the grip isn't perfect, just try the sweep quickly before they can adjust and if it doesn't work do another sweep and another until you eventually get them. If you imagine its like in Judo when you get a strange grip, you have 1 second to throw. Its the same concept. I wasted so much time tying to get the perfect grip, position, etc, but IMO its more about timing and catching them off guard. If they don't know the direction of the sweep or the grip you'll take its really hard to defend.

I don't think you need to be super athletic to play this way, but its not for everyone. If you're someone who likes to be slow and methodical, or dislikes scrambles/chaining sweeps, its not going to work. I think in the free video he posted on youtube he kind of explains it, but I think a lot of people just aren't used to playing BJJ that way. It kind of takes a shift in mentality.

On another note, grapplers guide is great and if you want another perspective on the butterfly guard check out Lachlan's stuff on there.
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I've made the same comparison to judo on here before too. In judo the grip battle is the key part, its decides the whole fight. Whoever wins that throws the other guy because they know exactly what they want the particular grips for, have drilled it to death and immediately use them.

Marcelo's effectively doing the same, he's hand-fighting to dominant grips and attacking off them immediately. If he gets them he gets to do what he wants and you get no chance to do what you wanted to do. Its more specific than just get a grip even if its not perfect; each of overhooks, underhooks, Collar Ties or 2-on-1 grips are all very strong controls. Winning the hand fight lets him dictate what happens next and the other guy is forced to be reactive. He doesn't have a way to force his game on Marcelo like how getting out-gripped in judo means you've little or no chance of throwing the other guy.
 
yetanother said:
How would they get pissy? You mean that there isn't enough mat space?
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The you-never-get-to-play-your-game approach. There is a 1:1 correlation between saltiness and grip breaks in non-high-level gyms.
 
Daz2300 said:
The dvd sets or Marcelo & Wardzinski? :)
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Both but in inverse qualities!

Marcelo is 5'8, Wardzinski is 6'2. That half a foot changes a lot about how you grapple, including butterfly it would seem.
 
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