"Buakaw was an anomaly"

[Karaev fan]

Yeah, Fujiwara. Was he a kickboxer to Muay Thai in the same way Muay Thai fighters are to kickboxing? Like a "pure" kickboxer, or was he familiar with Muay Thai?

Hiroki Ishii? Nah. He was pretty much a career Muay Thai guy wasn't he?

Both Fujiwara and Ishii are both originally from Japanese kickboxing (which admittedly is ripped off Thai rules). Fujiwara was the All Japan Kickboxing Champion (same line as say Masato or Kohi), Hiroki ended up doing mostly FTR but he was originally from NJKF.

I don't think kickboxing as we know it even existed in the 70's. Above the waist kickboxing maybe, but that wasn't what Fujiwara practised.

Fujiwara is among the most "Japanese KB" of "Japanese KB". He trained in Mejiro Gym directly under Kurosaki where the sport of "kickboxing" pretty much originated.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Both Fujiwara and Ishii are both originally from Japanese kickboxing (which admittedly is ripped off Thai rules). Fujiwara was the All Japan Kickboxing Champion (same line as say Masato or Kohi), Hiroki ended up doing mostly FTR but he was originally from NJKF.



Fujiwara is among the most "Japanese KB" of "Japanese KB". He trained in Mejiro Gym directly under Kurosaki where the sport of "kickboxing" pretty much originated.

Well what did the "kickboxing" rules of the time amount to? Muay thai plus headbutts and judo throws? When was the first time that "kickboxing" was used to refer to something which prohibited elbow and curtailed clinch fighting?

 

[Karaev fan]

Well what did the "kickboxing" rules of the time amount to? Muay thai plus headbutts and judo throws? When was the first time that "kickboxing" was used to refer to something which prohibited elbow and curtailed clinch fighting?

Never. "Kickboxing" in Japan is elbows + unlimited clinch (yes, Japanese kickboxers still suck at it). Its only after 2009-2010 or so when K-1 partnered with RISE and Krush that elbow-less standup fighting even really became a thing people would do professionally as opposed to something people picked up after they spent their careers with elbows/clinch and got the call up to MAX.

The Dutch KB style is semi-derivative of the Mejiro Gym and Fujiwara as the Dutch Mejiro line was one of the schools which pioneered Dutch KB.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Never. "Kickboxing" in Japan is elbows + unlimited clinch (yes, Japanese kickboxers still suck at it). Its only after 2009-2010 or so when K-1 partnered with RISE and Krush that elbow-less standup fighting even really became a thing people would do professionally.

The Dutch KB style is semi-derivative of the Mejiro Gym and Fujiwara as the Dutch Mejiro line was one of the schools which pioneered Dutch KB.

I wasn't asking about the way that the word "kickboxing" is used in Japan. I was asking about when kickboxing rules as we know (and maybe even love) them originated.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Both Fujiwara and Ishii are both originally from Japanese kickboxing (which admittedly is ripped off Thai rules). Fujiwara was the All Japan Kickboxing Champion (same line as say Masato or Kohi), Hiroki ended up doing mostly FTR but he was originally from NJKF.



Fujiwara is among the most "Japanese KB" of "Japanese KB". He trained in Mejiro Gym directly under Kurosaki where the sport of "kickboxing" pretty much originated.

Also, what do you mean when you say that Ishii stopped doing kickboxing and started doing muay thai? NJKF's rules seem pretty much the same as SJKF's.

 

[Karaev fan]

I wasn't asking about the way that the word "kickboxing" is used in Japan. I was asking about when kickboxing rules as we know (and maybe even love) them originated.

Probably the line of origin for "kickboxing" is

Late 1950's-Early 1960's: Cross-rules fights between Oyama dojo karateka (later known as kyokushin) and muay thai stylists start off. Karateka who've lost to muay thai fighters (most notably Kurosaki, who later founded Mejiro gym) feel the need to adapt to a full contact ruleset with a wider array of tecniques
Late 1960's: The All Japan Kickboxing Association is formed as an organization doing muay-thai like fights (i.e. full contact, elbows, clinch). The word "kickboxing" is coined by Noguchi Osamu
1960-1970's: Kickboxing becomes a mainstream sensation in Japan with tens of millions tuning in to watch the fights of Sawamura (another former karateka who lost vs. muay thai). Incidentally Sawamura has a pokemon named after him
Early 1970's: Dutch martial artists who studied in Japan--Jan Plass-who studied under Kurosaki and later founded the Dutch Mejiro gym--and Thom Harinck--who was a uchideshi in Japan and also learned of MT seperately--form the Dutch Kickboxing Association (I think this is the start of no-elbow KB, but not sure)
Mid 1980's: Kickboxing in Japan fragments as the All Japan splinters (the largest portion which became All Japan Kick Federation, which then in turn splintered). Dutch KB thrives
1993: K-1 is started as a sort of modified full contact karate tournament. No elbow rules are adopted
Late 90's: K-1 becomes a mainstream success, no-elbow rules are widely adopted in international competition
Late 2000's: K-1 starts expanding in to the lower weight classes. No elbow rules start becoming more frequent even in Japan

Its odd to me that westerners associate "kickboxing" with K-1 rules. In Japan (where the term KB originated), kickboxers despise K-1 fighters.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Probably the line of origin for "kickboxing" is

Late 1950's-Early 1960's: Cross-rules fights between Oyama dojo karateka (later known as kyokushin) and muay thai stylists start off. Karateka who've lost to muay thai fighters (most notably Kurosaki, who later founded Mejiro gym) feel the need to adapt to a full contact ruleset with a wider array of tecniques
Late 1960's: The All Japan Kickboxing Association is formed as an organization doing muay-thai like fights (i.e. full contact, elbows, clinch). The word "kickboxing" is coined by Noguchi Osamu
1960-1970's: Kickboxing becomes a mainstream sensation in Japan with tens of millions tuning in to watch the fights of Sawamura (another former karateka who lost vs. muay thai). Incidentally Sawamura has a pokemon named after him
Early 1970's: Dutch martial artists who studied in Japan--Jan Plass-who studied under Kurosaki and later founded the Dutch Mejiro gym--and Thom Harinck--who was a uchideshi in Japan and also learned of MT seperately--form the Dutch Kickboxing Association (I think this is the start of no-elbow KB, but not sure)
Mid 1980's: Kickboxing in Japan fragments as the All Japan splinters (the largest portion which became All Japan Kick Federation, which then in turn splintered). Dutch KB thrives
1993: K-1 is started as a sort of modified full contact karate tournament. No elbow rules are adopted
Late 90's: K-1 becomes a mainstream success, no-elbow rules are widely adopted in international competition
Late 2000's: K-1 starts expanding in to the lower weight classes. No elbow rules start becoming more frequent even in Japan

Its odd to me that westerners associate "kickboxing" with K-1 rules. In Japan (where the term KB originated), kickboxers despise K-1 fighters.

But in the Netherlands clinching was still allowed, although it was hardly understood and underused. But weren't there kickboxing bouts in the modern sense before K1? Didn't those go under the name of "oriental rules" or "freestyle rules" or something? Even WKA rules have a better claim to being the beginning of modern kickboxing than what was going on in the Netherlands.

 

[Kiwi Tricker]

Buakaw doesn't kick hard. They look like my sister hitting me with a pillow. His boxing is very stiff too. Terrible MT fighter.

Gr8 b8 m8, I r8 8/8

On topic, I do think Buakaw had a better transition to K1 rules than some Thai fighters would have owing to his aggression in the ring, but I certainly don't think he's an anomaly.

On the same note, just watch some K1 from the years Buakaw dominated and see how far it's come since then as well.

 

[ngarauru]

Yeah I wouldn't call him an anomaly, he is a douche though

 

[AbeRudder]

Sawamura had a few fixed fights didn't he? Was watching his highlights and a lot of these seem dodgy...

 

[FokaiMuayThai]

I prefer CK over this guy.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Sawamura had a few fixed fights didn't he? Was watching his highlights and a lot of these seem dodgy...

Some of those KOs look pretty weak, but it could easily just be that his opposition sucked.

 

[Karaev fan]

Sawamura had a few fixed fights didn't he? Was watching his highlights and a lot of these seem dodgy...

Oh yeah.

A few? I would guess that most of Sawamura's fights were fixed (or against utterly crap opposition). By the time he was on TV, he had a fight on a weekly basis. While never proven, its commonly thought that a ton of those fights were set up so he can get through easily and keep getting TV broadtime

A common tale is that in one of his fights, a ringside fan yelled at him to "stop faking!"

 

[NaughtyBoy]

Buakaw doesn't kick hard. They look like my sister hitting me with a pillow. His boxing is very stiff too. Terrible MT fighter.

Lol, you would cry like a bitch if for some reason you would had to take a Buakaw kick.

 

[NaughtyBoy]

Buakaw's fights are boring. He is skilled but watching his fights bore me. His strikes are weak. If I took those strikes, it would be the equivalent of me eating french fries.

Please Lady, enlighten us ...

 

[Rico]

Buakaw's fights are boring. He is skilled but watching his fights bore me. His strikes are weak. If I took those strikes, it would be the equivalent of me eating french fries.

You're trying way too hard, man. Tone it down a bit and you may get a bite.

 

[Rico]

Nevermind, someone bit.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Buakaw's fights are boring. He is skilled but watching his fights bore me. His strikes are weak. If I took those strikes, it would be the equivalent of me eating french fries.

Are you the new resident bad poster for this sub forum?

 

[Snubnoze707]

Some of those KOs look pretty weak, but it could easily just be that his opposition sucked.

No, it's pretty much confirmed that a lot of his fights were fixed...

 

[DastardlyMass]

I wasn't asking about the way that the word "kickboxing" is used in Japan. I was asking about when kickboxing rules as we know (and maybe even love) them originated.

They originated in the early 1970's and were known as oriental rules or international rules depending on the organization.