Harukaze
Brown Belt
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I don't think that the Martial Artists I mentioned can be so easily dismissed. Yes, many were loyal to Bruce Lee but they were also credible Martial Artists who trained with him. The closet we are going to get to knowing how good of a fighter Bruce Lee was is from eye witness accounts to his fighting skills. This is not a perfect assessment as people can exaggerate but people who actually knew him are the most reliable sources for this information. You say that the Chinese Martial Artists were more developed than American Martial Artists, I would like to hear you expound on that point and its relevance to assessing Bruce Lee's fighting skills. How were Chinese Martial Artists of the time better at analyzing fighting skills than say world champions like Jim Kelly and Chuck Norris?
In the posts on the other threads you mentioned some details about Bruce Lee's fighting skills including that his punches lacked power. Remind me again what the source of this information was? As for the Wong Jack Man fight the most popular alternative perspective to the narrative provided by Bruce Lee and his family that I have read comes from a magazine article which alleges that the fight was actually a draw and differs notably from Bruce Lee's account. I didn't find that article to be credible as it was full of nonsense like Wong Jack Man refusing to use his kicks for fear that he would kill Bruce Lee as well as the fight lasting 20-25 minutes (few people have the stamina for that especially in a no rules setting). Bruce Lee's account on the other hand of the fight lasting about 3 minutes with him beating Wong in to a state of demoralization yet being winded and bruising his hands sounds more realistic. In any case the fight was not filmed so we don't really know what happened.
I would definitely like to hear more from you on your Chinese sources for information about Bruce Lee's fighting skills as that is a perspective that few Americans have heard. As it stands I do believe Bruce Lee to have been a high level Martial Artist who was ahead of his time in terms of his Martial Arts philosophy. While obviously not being an invincible fighting God I think he was probably a competent fighter by the standards of the day. I think he would lose to modern Mixed Martial Artists but he also might surprise people if we got a chance to see him fight professionally. He had exceptional skills and a deep understanding of effective fighting techniques.
While folks like Jim Kelly and Chuck Norris definitely do have factually indisputable tournament victories, to call them "world champions" is a little facetious in light of the fact that the so-called "world" championships were essentially relegated to North American martial artists only. Where were the Pud Pad Noi's and Apidet Sit Hirun's in the tournament? The Mas Oyama's and Bobby Lowe's in the tournament? HK and the greater Canton (Guangdong) area, on the other hand, was a major Southeast trading hub and had exposure to many different Asian nations and their traditions, including challenge matches against Muay Thai in 1921 and 1958.
http://books.google.com/books?id=fN...v=onepage&q=muay thai vs kung fu 1921&f=false
Sure, the kung fu guys lost badly, but at least they were exposed to other, more effective styles unlike Ed Parker's crew and the folks who fought in his tournaments. This is just one documented instance of a longer, broader tradition of fighting culture and history in South China versus the United States that could affect one martial artist's assessment of another (know more, see more, right?).
In regards to Bruce's weak punching, Shek Kin had mentioned that in an interview shortly before his death, which was consistent with what Bruce himself had said when he complained of painful, swollen hands after the Jackman Wong fight (strong punches would theoretically have ended the fight before the onset of damaged hands, right?). Shek Kin also commented that Bruce's left leg was weak, which again was consistent with what Bruce himself said when he talked about his leg length discrepancy and its effects on his fighting style. Pretty strong corroboration of stated facts, don't you think? Here's the interview:
http://eastweek.my-magazine.me/index.php?aid=2037
Furthermore, in going back and reviewing the relationship between Shek Kin and Bruce Lee, it turns out that Shek Kin was friends with Bruce's father and knew Bruce since he was a little boy! He states in this interview
that he had heard that Bruce fought a lot as a child, but Shek Kin laughs and says he'd never seen it happen himself! He also covers a bit about what happened on the set of "Enter the Dragon", including his feedback and influence in direction and cinematography, problems with English dialog, and deference to his thoughts and desires by Bruce Lee and, subsequently, the Western film crew. In regards to his sparring with Bruce, he mentions that they sparred prior to the set to assess each others' skills so that they knew what they were working with and could then collaborate. He states that Bruce said, "I'll kick you in the leg" and was able to low kick Shek Kin in the first exchange; however, after that, Shek Kin states that he was able to catch on to Bruce's timing as he was very rhythmic and tended to telegraph strikes with his breathing and shouting, and with that Shek Kin was able to land a punch on Bruce's mouth, drawing both blood and an apology from Shek Kin (he reiterates in the interview that it was an "accident"). From there, the set preparation was complete and the sparring had to stop, and they cooperated and held back appropriately during the shooting of the rest of the movie. He also talks about Bruce Lee's back problems, and that he urged Lee to take it easier because he was a movie star now, not a martial artist fighting for a living (Shek Kin gets a little teary eyed here); he also reports Bruce appearing visibly fatigued onset at times. He concludes the segment by talking a bit about his own martial philosophy as well, in the context of double-end bag training with Bruce.
It's difficult to find more Chinese language material online for you as most of it was old print material: Bruce Lee's been dead for a long time and lots of articles and interviews from HK and even SF's own Chinatown were never transferred from print to the web. Although he was popular, Lee's legacy hasn't loomed quite as gargantuan in HK as it has in the States; there's a lot less modern media chatter about him these days (with a few exceptions like Shek Kin's last interviews from several years ago where his relationship to Lee was but a single portion of the printed interview).
http://orientaldaily.on.cc/cnt/news/20090605/00176_098.html
In this interview, Shek Kin again recounts that during the filming of "Enter the Dragon", there was a point where he landed a punch on Bruce Lee's mouth, drawing some blood, although Shek Kin emphasizes that it was just an accident. He also praised Lee's agility and speed (and interestingly enough, went off on a brief tangent comparing and contrasting him to Jackie Chan).
Moving on, as I had mentioned previously, yes indeed the results of the fight between Lee and Wong is contestable. However, only Lee and his friends claimed victory, and Wong was seen unscathed at work the next day by multiple, unrelated people (including two personal family friends, one not involved in martial arts and one that was the member of a school that rivaled Wong's). It's hard to believe Lee's account of a crushing victory when scads of Chinatown denizens saw Wong unhurt the very next day. The article definitely got some things waaaay wrong, but it also got some things right: which makes it a lousy source, of course, but I feel it's important to consider things stated in the article that were consistent with many statements made in the local Chinatown community. Again, it's an issue of statistical significance in my mind.
Overall, I feel that Bruce Lee wasn't the greatest fighter of all time, nor was he completely ineffectual: he had his strong points (speed, conditioning, a monster right kick, good martial theory/philosophy, charisma) as well as his weaknesses (lack of hand power, weak left kick, a certain degree of close-mindedness towards undeniably effective arts like Muay Thai, arrogance, failure to take care of his health at the cost of overtraining), but nobody can deny his effect on the movie industry and pop culture.