Bruce lee = goat

I don't think that the Martial Artists I mentioned can be so easily dismissed. Yes, many were loyal to Bruce Lee but they were also credible Martial Artists who trained with him. The closet we are going to get to knowing how good of a fighter Bruce Lee was is from eye witness accounts to his fighting skills. This is not a perfect assessment as people can exaggerate but people who actually knew him are the most reliable sources for this information. You say that the Chinese Martial Artists were more developed than American Martial Artists, I would like to hear you expound on that point and its relevance to assessing Bruce Lee's fighting skills. How were Chinese Martial Artists of the time better at analyzing fighting skills than say world champions like Jim Kelly and Chuck Norris?

In the posts on the other threads you mentioned some details about Bruce Lee's fighting skills including that his punches lacked power. Remind me again what the source of this information was? As for the Wong Jack Man fight the most popular alternative perspective to the narrative provided by Bruce Lee and his family that I have read comes from a magazine article which alleges that the fight was actually a draw and differs notably from Bruce Lee's account. I didn't find that article to be credible as it was full of nonsense like Wong Jack Man refusing to use his kicks for fear that he would kill Bruce Lee as well as the fight lasting 20-25 minutes (few people have the stamina for that especially in a no rules setting). Bruce Lee's account on the other hand of the fight lasting about 3 minutes with him beating Wong in to a state of demoralization yet being winded and bruising his hands sounds more realistic. In any case the fight was not filmed so we don't really know what happened.

I would definitely like to hear more from you on your Chinese sources for information about Bruce Lee's fighting skills as that is a perspective that few Americans have heard. As it stands I do believe Bruce Lee to have been a high level Martial Artist who was ahead of his time in terms of his Martial Arts philosophy. While obviously not being an invincible fighting God I think he was probably a competent fighter by the standards of the day. I think he would lose to modern Mixed Martial Artists but he also might surprise people if we got a chance to see him fight professionally. He had exceptional skills and a deep understanding of effective fighting techniques.

While folks like Jim Kelly and Chuck Norris definitely do have factually indisputable tournament victories, to call them "world champions" is a little facetious in light of the fact that the so-called "world" championships were essentially relegated to North American martial artists only. Where were the Pud Pad Noi's and Apidet Sit Hirun's in the tournament? The Mas Oyama's and Bobby Lowe's in the tournament? HK and the greater Canton (Guangdong) area, on the other hand, was a major Southeast trading hub and had exposure to many different Asian nations and their traditions, including challenge matches against Muay Thai in 1921 and 1958.
http://books.google.com/books?id=fN...v=onepage&q=muay thai vs kung fu 1921&f=false
Sure, the kung fu guys lost badly, but at least they were exposed to other, more effective styles unlike Ed Parker's crew and the folks who fought in his tournaments. This is just one documented instance of a longer, broader tradition of fighting culture and history in South China versus the United States that could affect one martial artist's assessment of another (know more, see more, right?).

In regards to Bruce's weak punching, Shek Kin had mentioned that in an interview shortly before his death, which was consistent with what Bruce himself had said when he complained of painful, swollen hands after the Jackman Wong fight (strong punches would theoretically have ended the fight before the onset of damaged hands, right?). Shek Kin also commented that Bruce's left leg was weak, which again was consistent with what Bruce himself said when he talked about his leg length discrepancy and its effects on his fighting style. Pretty strong corroboration of stated facts, don't you think? Here's the interview:
http://eastweek.my-magazine.me/index.php?aid=2037

Furthermore, in going back and reviewing the relationship between Shek Kin and Bruce Lee, it turns out that Shek Kin was friends with Bruce's father and knew Bruce since he was a little boy! He states in this interview

that he had heard that Bruce fought a lot as a child, but Shek Kin laughs and says he'd never seen it happen himself! He also covers a bit about what happened on the set of "Enter the Dragon", including his feedback and influence in direction and cinematography, problems with English dialog, and deference to his thoughts and desires by Bruce Lee and, subsequently, the Western film crew. In regards to his sparring with Bruce, he mentions that they sparred prior to the set to assess each others' skills so that they knew what they were working with and could then collaborate. He states that Bruce said, "I'll kick you in the leg" and was able to low kick Shek Kin in the first exchange; however, after that, Shek Kin states that he was able to catch on to Bruce's timing as he was very rhythmic and tended to telegraph strikes with his breathing and shouting, and with that Shek Kin was able to land a punch on Bruce's mouth, drawing both blood and an apology from Shek Kin (he reiterates in the interview that it was an "accident"). From there, the set preparation was complete and the sparring had to stop, and they cooperated and held back appropriately during the shooting of the rest of the movie. He also talks about Bruce Lee's back problems, and that he urged Lee to take it easier because he was a movie star now, not a martial artist fighting for a living (Shek Kin gets a little teary eyed here); he also reports Bruce appearing visibly fatigued onset at times. He concludes the segment by talking a bit about his own martial philosophy as well, in the context of double-end bag training with Bruce.

It's difficult to find more Chinese language material online for you as most of it was old print material: Bruce Lee's been dead for a long time and lots of articles and interviews from HK and even SF's own Chinatown were never transferred from print to the web. Although he was popular, Lee's legacy hasn't loomed quite as gargantuan in HK as it has in the States; there's a lot less modern media chatter about him these days (with a few exceptions like Shek Kin's last interviews from several years ago where his relationship to Lee was but a single portion of the printed interview).
http://orientaldaily.on.cc/cnt/news/20090605/00176_098.html
In this interview, Shek Kin again recounts that during the filming of "Enter the Dragon", there was a point where he landed a punch on Bruce Lee's mouth, drawing some blood, although Shek Kin emphasizes that it was just an accident. He also praised Lee's agility and speed (and interestingly enough, went off on a brief tangent comparing and contrasting him to Jackie Chan).

Moving on, as I had mentioned previously, yes indeed the results of the fight between Lee and Wong is contestable. However, only Lee and his friends claimed victory, and Wong was seen unscathed at work the next day by multiple, unrelated people (including two personal family friends, one not involved in martial arts and one that was the member of a school that rivaled Wong's). It's hard to believe Lee's account of a crushing victory when scads of Chinatown denizens saw Wong unhurt the very next day. The article definitely got some things waaaay wrong, but it also got some things right: which makes it a lousy source, of course, but I feel it's important to consider things stated in the article that were consistent with many statements made in the local Chinatown community. Again, it's an issue of statistical significance in my mind.


Overall, I feel that Bruce Lee wasn't the greatest fighter of all time, nor was he completely ineffectual: he had his strong points (speed, conditioning, a monster right kick, good martial theory/philosophy, charisma) as well as his weaknesses (lack of hand power, weak left kick, a certain degree of close-mindedness towards undeniably effective arts like Muay Thai, arrogance, failure to take care of his health at the cost of overtraining), but nobody can deny his effect on the movie industry and pop culture.
 
While folks like Jim Kelly and Chuck Norris definitely do have factually indisputable tournament victories, to call them "world champions" is a little facetious in light of the fact that the so-called "world" championships were essentially relegated to North American martial artists only. Where were the Pud Pad Noi's and Apidet Sit Hirun's in the tournament? The Mas Oyama's and Bobby Lowe's in the tournament? HK and the greater Canton (Guangdong) area, on the other hand, was a major Southeast trading hub and had exposure to many different Asian nations and their traditions, including challenge matches against Muay Thai in 1921 and 1958.
http://books.google.com/books?id=fN...v=onepage&q=muay thai vs kung fu 1921&f=false
Sure, the kung fu guys lost badly, but at least they were exposed to other, more effective styles unlike Ed Parker's crew and the folks who fought in his tournaments. This is just one documented instance of a longer, broader tradition of fighting culture and history in South China versus the United States that could affect one martial artist's assessment of another (know more, see more, right?).

Yes, I'm aware that the scope of those tournaments wasn't exactly international. Even the UFC while an open competition for the world is heavily based in the United States which means that one can expect over representation of American fighters in the league. It's not like international soccer where world wide competition truly exists. Even so these were credible Martial Artists who knew what they were talking about when it came to assessing fighting skills. That's the point I wanted to get across and they did say that Bruce Lee was a good Martial Artist.

I've never heard a critique of Bruce Lee's strengths and weaknesses as a fighter so that much from the Shek Kin interviews is very interesting.

In regards to Bruce's weak punching, Shek Kin had mentioned that in an interview shortly before his death, which was consistent with what Bruce himself had said when he complained of painful, swollen hands after the Jackman Wong fight (strong punches would theoretically have ended the fight before the onset of damaged hands, right?). Shek Kin also commented that Bruce's left leg was weak, which again was consistent with what Bruce himself said when he talked about his leg length discrepancy and its effects on his fighting style. Pretty strong corroboration of stated facts, don't you think? Here's the interview:
http://eastweek.my-magazine.me/index.php?aid=2037

According to Bruce Lee in an interview he hit the Kung Fu cat (Wong Jack Man) to the back and head like a fool damaging his hands in the process. This wouldn't necessarily mean he had brittle hands as it's well-known that the skull is very hard and can easily damage the hands if you hit it with your fists full force.

Bruce Lee reportedly won a high school amateur Boxing tournament in Hong Kong when he was a teenager, scoring some knockouts. I am surprised to hear his punches were weak considering the emphasis he put on developing his arms and mastering proper punching technique. The speed and power of his punches is something he prided himself on hence the One-inch punch (I know many say it was a gimmick as Lee was probably pushing off against an unbalanced target but it's a good example that he thought he had exceptional punching power).



Furthermore, in going back and reviewing the relationship between Shek Kin and Bruce Lee, it turns out that Shek Kin was friends with Bruce's father and knew Bruce since he was a little boy! He states in this interview

that he had heard that Bruce fought a lot as a child, but Shek Kin laughs and says he'd never seen it happen himself!


....


Very interesting. I'd never heard that Bruce Lee sparred with him and it's interesting to hear that he wounded Bruce, accident or not that's some story.

Moving on, as I had mentioned previously, yes indeed the results of the fight between Lee and Wong is contestable. However, only Lee and his friends claimed victory, and Wong was seen unscathed at work the next day by multiple, unrelated people (including two personal family friends, one not involved in martial arts and one that was the member of a school that rivaled Wong's). It's hard to believe Lee's account of a crushing victory when scads of Chinatown denizens saw Wong unhurt the very next day. The article definitely got some things waaaay wrong, but it also got some things right: which makes it a lousy source, of course, but I feel it's important to consider things stated in the article that were consistent with many statements made in the local Chinatown community. Again, it's an issue of statistical significance in my mind.

Bruce Lee does state publicly that he defeated Wong Jack Man but doesn't to my knowledge comment on the level of damage his inflicted beyond where he hit him. Let's assume that Bruce Lee's account is true. He knocked Wong down and pummeled him to his head and back forcing him to verbally submit. Well he probably wouldn't have been concussed. Even if he was knocked out he could have gone to work the next day as if nothing happened. The damage to the back of the head and back probably wouldn't have been noticeable to bystanders so he absolutely could have been beaten up on that day and well enough to come to work looking fine the next day.

If Bruce Lee had punched him square in the face repeatedly, beating him to a bloody pulp it would be a different story but the eye witnesses to Wong working unscathed don't seem to contradict Bruce Lee's account of what happened. Plus knowing what I know about street fights and no rules challenge matches it's unrealistic to believe that Wong Jack Man dodged and parried Bruce Lee's attacks for 20-25 minutes. Fights of this nature are often chaotic and end with someone being brutally beaten. Wong easily could have gotten lucky when it comes to damage if he was beaten to the back of the head and back vs. in his face.

Still such a defeat can be very psychologically traumatizing especially for a proud Martial Artist. The fight was said to be held in secret and the outcome agreed to be kept secret. Bruce Lee seems to have broken the code of silence on this fight which probably angered Wong Jack Man so he disputes the results and asked for a rematch.
Also Wong Jack Man is still alive yet in all of these years has never given a video interview telling his side of the story. In the internet age I find this to be highly unusual. This is what he's known to the world for, fighting Bruce Lee and he seems to have nothing further to say on it beyond what was reported in that magazine article. His silence makes me believe even more that he would rather just forget about this fight. If he didn't lose I would expect him to defend himself at some point. Few men are that humble that they'd just let a blatant lie go unchallenged, especially a proud Martial Artist.

Bruce Lee's account simply rings true to me especially when you consider that he admits his own faults. Bruce comes off as a perfectionist who won a fight and made mistakes which influenced him to become a better Martial Artist.


Overall, I feel that Bruce Lee wasn't the greatest fighter of all time, nor was he completely ineffectual: he had his strong points (speed, conditioning, a monster right kick, good martial theory/philosophy, charisma) as well as his weaknesses (lack of hand power, weak left kick, a certain degree of close-mindedness towards undeniably effective arts like Muay Thai, arrogance, failure to take care of his health at the cost of overtraining), but nobody can deny his effect on the movie industry and pop culture.

One thing that is very consistent in stories about Bruce Lee is that he did in fact over train. I think this is what led to his death. He was doing something wrong in his training that killed him. Some have suggested that he may have been dehydrating himself to look as lean and cut as possible for his movie roles. It's well-known that dehydration can cause kidney failure and severe headaches if done improperly. Bruce did complain of headaches before his death. Perhaps he was over trained in some way and the headaches led to his allergic reaction to medication which caused the cerebral edema that killed him.

Bruce Lee's widow Linda admits to many of these flaws such as arrogance, having a bad temper and obsessive training. Martial Artists can learn from Bruce's flaws as well as his greatness. As for fighting skills I do believe he would lose if he competed in MMA today in his prime with no preparation. With some preparation I think he could have been a good fighter. Basically I feel the Bas Rutten approach is most accurate.

[YT]TWZBSBab-Es[/YT]
 
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a certain degree of close-mindedness towards undeniably effective arts like Muay Thai.

please explain this man, I always wondered why Bruce Lee never take into consideration Muay Thai which is maybe the most effective striking art and should be known in Hong Kong even before Bruce was born.
 
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I'm not sure if you have much of a training background personally, but hits to the back of the head are quite devastating, commonly resulting in knockouts with very little amount of force needed -- there's a reason why rabbit punching is disallowed in boxing and modern MMA. Furthermore, a knockout by its very nature is a grade III concussion due to loss of consciousness as a result of a traumatic blow to the head. I don't know if you've ever been KO'd or concussed, but the symptoms can last anywhere from seconds to days. Additionally, there is a major hand-conditioning element in wing chun; assuming that Lee adhered to Ip Man's curriculum, that his hands were damaged from rabbit punching means his hands were weak both in terms of stopping power and conditioning. What one can extrapolate from all this is 1.) Bruce Lee's account, if accurate, means he couldn't hit Jackman Wong in the back of the head hard enough to KO him -- and it is very easy to cause loss of consciousness with a blow to the back of the head; 2.) If Lee did manage to KO Wong, he may or may not have been able to go in to work the next day -- Wong worked at the Jackson Cafe, which was a pretty busy, cramped place (I've eaten there multiple times myself before they closed); if he were KO'd the day before, he would have at least had a headache that would have noticeably adversely affected him at work in such a high-paced restaurant, yet there no such reports from bystanders.

As for Wong's reticence, it comes down to Chinese culture again: two vital points are hierarchy, and inside vs. outside. Shek Kin is a generation above Lee and so had the right to speak freely about their interactions; even so, he was very polite and gracious although fairly direct about it. Wong and Lee are considered to be the same generation; speaking ill of your fellow man (in this case, Chinese martial artist), particularly when of equal social footing, is bit of a taboo in traditional Chinese culture. Which ties into the inside vs. outside aspect: many traditional Chinese folks will consider issues within the Chinese community to be a Chinese thing, unfit for anyone outside of the Chinese community to be involved in -- hence Lee is the only one that ever went gabbing to Western media about his exploits (one of many sore points amongst many Chinese Americans that felt Lee "sold out" the Chinese community and "whitewashed" himself despite his somewhat hypocritical efforts to portray Chinese unity in his movies), while many anecdotes about Lee himself stayed inside the Chinese community. A similar thing happened about a decade when Hung Gar proponents Y.C. Wong and Chiu Chi Ling (the guy that played the "Gay Tailor" in "Kung Fu Hustle", among other movie roles) had a huge disupte -- everyone in the SF Chinatown and greater Chinese kung fu community heard about it, but little word of it got out to any Westerners, even kung fu-practicing Westerners. Wong, to this day, maintained a good, traditional Chinese cultural practice by not saying anything to adversely affect Lee's "face" and therefore potential livelihood; you may interpret his silence as acquiescence to Lee's story, but for me and other traditional ethnic Chinese, Wong's silence speaks more to his integrity and his preservation of "face" for both him and Lee -- why else would students continue to flock to Wong's Jing Mo Association to this day if he were considered a loser? Lee's account, by Chinese cultural standards, is rather uncouth, but that's arguably outside the scope of this discussion. :) I do agree with you that there is no way the fight lasted 20-25 minutes though, unless the two were prancing around a lot (which could potentially have happened considering that they were both kung fu practitioners har har har). Perhaps between you and me, it'll be "agree to disagree" on the Lee-Wong fight after all haha.

As for Bruce Lee's boxing tournament experience in high school, I'll leave you this eye witness account from Rolf Clausnitzer, a King George V's student:
"[Gary Elms's] bout with Bruce turned out to be the most amazing and bizarre boxing match I have ever seen and expect to see. I honestly believe that Gary did not land even one single scoring punch throughout the entire 3 x 1 minute rounds, with Bruce deflecting and taking all of Gary's punches on his arms. Gary was knocked down several times, but he was not knocked out (contrary to what has been reported in various articles and books!) and, even more surprisingly, he did not appear to be hurt or distressed. Each time he was floored, he would immediately jump back up. That's why the referee did not stop the fight. Notwithstanding Gary's extraordinary toughness, I was amazed to see him survive the bout in such good shape. It was not until later when I caught up with Frank that some sort of explanation emerged. "
"I will stick my neck out by stating that not one accurate account, let alone analysis of it, has ever been published. Every single account, including Linda Lee's, contains glaring, basic errors and inaccuracies: the result of the fight, Gary's ethnic origins, the conduct of the bout, even the location, all have been wrongly reported."
http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/peterson/rolfint.php

Lastly, despite all the theories regarding the cause of Lee's death in the West (Lee family curse, Triad assassins, OD'ing on e-stim, yadda yadda), British government sources in Hong Kong released his autopsy reports a long time ago: he had an adverse drug reaction that caused his cerebral edema, as he had been taking multiple medications for his injured back as well as for headache relief (there is however some conjecture as to what actress Betty Ting provided him in her apartment in addition to the analgesic).

please explain this man, I always wondered why Bruce Lee never take into consideration Muay Thai which is maybe the most effective striking art and should be known in Hong Kong even before Bruce was born.
Yes indeed, Muay Thai was known in Hong Kong at the time. Supposedly Bruce wrote in his notes that he felt Muay Thai had poor footwork and a slow kick, although he gave credit to its clinching and elbows. I feel the onus is on Lee for not exploring the art more as he had been in Thailand on at least one occasion and could have educated himself more at Rajadamnern, Lumpinee, or one of the major camps; instead, he just wrote off the art based on his initial impressions. This is covered in a bit more detail in one of the other Bruce Lee threads that I linked to in an earlier post.
 
I'm not sure if you have much of a training background personally, but hits to the back of the head are quite devastating, commonly resulting in knockouts with very little amount of force needed -- there's a reason why rabbit punching is disallowed in boxing and modern MMA.

I'm referring to hitting the skull behind the head. I've done it in a real fight, it feels like hitting a brick wall and can easily hurt your fists. If Bruce was hitting the skull he probably didn't cause a concussion to Wong. Now if he were hitting the cerebellum he could easily cause brain damage, there I agree that concussion can easily be inflicted on a person and that's the area that they really don't want you to hit in MMA.

2.) If Lee did manage to KO Wong, he may or may not have been able to go in to work the next day -- Wong worked at the Jackson Cafe, which was a pretty busy, cramped place (I've eaten there multiple times myself before they closed); if he were KO'd the day before, he would have at least had a headache that would have noticeably adversely affected him at work in such a high-paced restaurant, yet there no such reports from bystanders.

Well Bruce said that Wong verbally submitted so he was conscious throughout the exchange. If Bruce hit the skull he could have hurt his hands and done enough to get Wong to quit while Wong was ok enough to go to work the next day.

As for Wong's reticence, it comes down to Chinese culture again: two vital points are hierarchy, and inside vs. outside. Shek Kin is a generation above Lee and so had the right to speak freely about their interactions; even so, he was very polite and gracious although fairly direct about it. Wong and Lee are considered to be the same generation; speaking ill of your fellow man (in this case, Chinese martial artist), particularly when of equal social footing, is bit of a taboo in traditional Chinese culture. Which ties into the inside vs. outside aspect: many traditional Chinese folks will consider issues within the Chinese community to be a Chinese thing, unfit for anyone outside of the Chinese community to be involved in -- hence Lee is the only one that ever went gabbing to Western media about his exploits (one of many sore points amongst many Chinese Americans that felt Lee "sold out" the Chinese community and "whitewashed" himself despite his somewhat hypocritical efforts to portray Chinese unity in his movies), while many anecdotes about Lee himself stayed inside the Chinese community.

Interesting. I guess this is an example of Bruce Lee's arrogance. He was outspoken and boastful, clearly not afraid to share his exploits with the Western media. Do you think it's possible that Wong Jack Man fabricated his account of events to save face?

I do agree with you that there is no way the fight lasted 20-25 minutes though, unless the two were prancing around a lot (which could potentially have happened considering that they were both kung fu practitioners har har har). Perhaps between you and me, it'll be "agree to disagree" on the Lee-Wong fight after all haha.

Bruce's account seems so much more realistic in that it's short (3 minutes) but just long enough to tire someone out if they don't pace themselves and use a lot of explosive movements. For the fight to last 20-25 minutes they really would have had to do almost nothing offensively.

As for Bruce Lee's boxing tournament experience in high school, I'll leave you this eye witness account from Rolf Clausnitzer, a King George V's student...

Interesting account. So it seems according to this source that Bruce Lee was able to knock down Gary Elms repeatedly (I heard he knocked out at least two other opponents) which means he had some power.
 
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While I don't think Lee would participate in MMA if he came alive, 32 years old today, because he was all about fights without rules. The actually had workouts scheduled where he'd practice his fingerjabbing for 30 minutes. He even said: ""I have no fear of opponent in front of me, that I'm very self efficient, that they do not bother me. And that should I fight, should I do anything, I have made up my mind, and that's it baby, you'd better kill me before."

A few quotes comes to mind though:

* Gene LeBell: "Bruce lee is a world class martial artist".
* Joe Lewis: "I consider him by far the greatest, and for those who don't consider him the greatest, at least he would at least be the number one candidate".
* Joe Rogan while watching Chineese Connection: "His technique is really fucking good. It's really good! To this day. I mean it's hard to see someone from back then do Martial arts and compare it to what you see today, but Bruce Lee compares."

* Chuck norris made a column about him, worth a quick read: http://www.wnd.com/2008/03/60309/
Highlights: "Lee was lightening fast, very agile and incredibly strong for his size." and "However, many today don’t realize he never competed professionally. If he had, I believe he would have been a world champion.

Bruce Lee certainly had more than enough of speed and strength. Bas is right, give Lee a few months to update his knowledge and techniques and he would do great in the UFC. I mean, Lee even made a comment to Dan Inosanto that Jeet-Kun-Do would constantly evolve, and that the JKD of 1969 would be different from JKD in 1968. Now it's 40 years later and people are still comparing him to today's fighters...
 
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People tend to forget that Bruce Lee died so young and really spent the last few years of his life focused on movies and not competing.

His works and philosophy on JKD is absolutely brilliant for a 27 year old - and incomplete. I can only imagine if he had lived longer and after his movie career faded what him and Dan Inosanto could have done together to forward the art.

You can't call him the best fighter of all time since during his prime years his efforts were geared towards entertainment and not fighting.

But I think you can make an argument for being the most impactful martial artist of all time.
 
People tend to forget that Bruce Lee died so young and really spent the last few years of his life focused on movies and not competing.

His works and philosophy on JKD is absolutely brilliant for a 27 year old - and incomplete. I can only imagine if he had lived longer and after his movie career faded what him and Dan Inosanto could have done together to forward the art.

You can't call him the best fighter of all time since during his prime years his efforts were geared towards entertainment and not fighting.

But I think you can make an argument for being the most impactful martial artist of all time.

A very fair assessment. Can't say I disagree.
 
I'm a Bruce Lee mark but he got a lot of that from Ali. He studied Ali greatly.

It's fun to speculate with Bruce but we'll never truly know how good he was, as he didn't compete hardly ever after the 60's. ( and not in anything super official)

He is however the most athletically fine tuned martial artist we'll probably ever see. No one will ever fuck with Lee's physique.

He fucked up his back because he was working out with pretty bad form (dont believe the BS illegal fight from the movie).
 
The biggest telltale of the Bruce Lee myth was his fight with Jack Man Wong. There were disagreements as to who won. But some Chinese newspaper guy said that he saw JMW working his waiter job at the coffee shop the NEXT DAY with a slight mark around one of his eyes. I mean, if you beat the shit out of some cat like BL said he did to Wong, then the guy's probably going to call in sick the next day due to being severely fucked up.

Also it was Bruce who started second guessing his trainning methods, looking for outside influences in other martial arts after that fight, wich pretty much tells us that the 30 second total beat down never happened and it was probably closer to JMW side of the story that it was a long slow and sloppy all around fight-sparring.
 
What are you talking about. Even Bruce Lee himself said that is was a long and sloppy fight. that was one of his main reason to start training different things.
 
What are you talking about. Even Bruce Lee himself said that is was a long and sloppy fight. that was one of his main reason to start training different things.

Bruce only complain was that he hit the back of the head following Wong as he was running away, he says the fight was quick.

It depends of how long is long since Bruce camp versions go from seconds to about 3 minutes, some people may think 3 minutes is long for a street fight, then again this was probably closer to a sparring match than a pure street fight.
 
Is Bruce Lee more overrated, or is McGregor?
 
as a fighter, we'll never know how good he really was but without a doubt he was the greatest inspiration to the martial arts world. his philosophy on the reality of fighting is on point and if he was still alive he would have been a great mma coach/trainer/mentor. let's leave it at that.
 
as a fighter, we'll never know how good he really was but without a doubt he was the greatest inspiration to the martial arts world. his philosophy on the reality of fighting is on point and if he was still alive he would have been a great mma coach/trainer/mentor. let's leave it at that.

There's actually a lot of credible anti-Bruce Lee facts in local Hong Kong publications, some of which has been translated:

- His writings are said to be "fortune cookie" philosophy. He plays the Chinese card and repeats what others have said. Being from China, I can vouch for this. A lot of his philosophy sounds as bad in Chinese as if Greg Jackson kept saying stuff like "Aristotle said, fighters must adhere to the golden mean".

- He told the public a lot of lies to build his public persona. He said he majored in philosophy in University. He did not. He majored in drama.

- He was obsessed about being rich and famous, despite his pretensions of being some sort of sage.

- Many of his movies keyed off racist and nationalist anti-Japanese sentiment, so that they would be more popular among the Chinese.

- When he practised with Gene Lebell, he had nothing for Gene Lebell's grappling. Bruce Lee would get fireman lifted into the air easily. Bruce Lee's martial prowess consists of what are essentially party tricks (albeit impressive ones), and beating people from traditional Chinese martial arts gyms.

- He cheated on his wife repeatedly before and during his marriage.

- He was a bully with a huge ego. As a schoolboy, he would force others to do his homework for him. As an adult, he would resort to violence at small provocations. After he became a star, many kids would "challenge" Bruce Lee, and even though the kids were no real threat, Bruce Lee would hurt them badly.


None of this can take away from his achievements. He made highly influential movies. And I agree, he's an inspiration. But the a character doesn't need to be real to inspire: e.g. Spiderman, Superman, etc.

Likewise, Bruce Lee himself is just a myth. He was a decent martial artist, but he wasn't a decent character. Fame and fortune often brings out the fake and the douchey in people, and Bruce Lee was no exception.


[Edit: On second thought, Bruce Lee was extraordinary as a man. But only as a showman. At that, he was world-class. There are parallels with Steve Jobs: (1) the ability to build myths, distort reality, and create a religious following; (2) excellent taste in what's cool, in sensing what people want before they want it; and (3) also kinda an asshole.]
 
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There's actually a lot of credible anti-Bruce Lee facts in local Hong Kong publications, some of which has been translated:

- His writings are said to be "fortune cookie" philosophy. He plays the Chinese card and repeats what others have said. Being from China, I can vouch for this. A lot of his philosophy sounds as bad in Chinese as if Greg Jackson kept saying stuff like "Aristotle said, fighters must adhere to the golden mean".

- He told the public a lot of lies to build his public persona. He said he majored in philosophy in University. He did not. He majored in drama.

- He was obsessed about being rich and famous, despite his pretensions of being some sort of sage.

- Many of his movies keyed off racist and nationalist anti-Japanese sentiment, so that they would be more popular among the Chinese.

- When he practised with Gene Lebell, he had nothing for Gene Lebell's grappling. Bruce Lee would get fireman lifted into the air easily. Bruce Lee's martial prowess consists of what are essentially party tricks (albeit impressive ones), and beating people from traditional Chinese martial arts gyms.

- He cheated on his wife repeatedly before and during his marriage.

- He was a bully with a huge ego. As a schoolboy, he would force others to do his homework for him. As an adult, he would resort to violence at small provocations. After he became a star, many kids would "challenge" Bruce Lee, and even though the kids were no real threat, Bruce Lee would hurt them badly.


None of this can take away from his achievements. He made highly influential movies. And I agree, he's an inspiration. But the a character doesn't need to be real to inspire: e.g. Spiderman, Superman, etc.

Likewise, Bruce Lee himself is just a myth. He was a decent martial artist, but he wasn't a decent character. Fame and fortune often brings out the fake and the douchey in people, and Bruce Lee was no exception.

Finally, another Chinese guy besides me that knows the side of Bruce that he showed to Chinese folks.
 
Haha this proves that you will find envy in every part of the world.
 
Haha this proves that you will find envy in every part of the world.

No, it just proves that most people really don't understand the inner workings of other nationalities beyond their own (and even that is often tenuous).
 
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