BREXIT Discussion, v3.0: World Leaders' Reaction After The U.K Voted To Leave The European Union.

[Sauron]

The people who voted Leave are elderly, people who have worked for a good portion of their lives and are more expereinced in life. It's is ironic the Remain camp who got most of the young vote would try to paint the Leave voters as not knowing what they were getting into.

Oh please.

You make it sound like a bad thing that those with their whole lives and careers ahead of them would care deeply about exactly that. While pensioners with nothing but day-time tv ahead for them should be be determining how the former should live. There's a reason why society changes with the generations.

 

[Islam Imamate]

lol dude, the British empire didn't end in 1997. That's just when the 200 year treaty with China expired. I remember that when it happened, I was a teenager who paid more attention to boobs and video games but I remember it becoming a fairly large brouhaha, as the citizens of Hong Kong feared their capitalist system would be overtaken by the communist Chinese government. Anyway, that wasn't colonialism or exploitation. The Brits held their side of the treaty even though the citizens of Hong Kong didn't want to return to the fold (IIRC, it's been 20 years).

I said 1997 is when they ceded their last territory which is correct. I also said it was largely dismantled by the mid 60s which is also correct.

It's pretty strange to say that the Brits controlling territory in China which they captured through war isn't colonialism.

Like Murray said, the Ottoman empire was around for much longer than the British empire but most people don't require that they suffer for their sins. It's only European (aka white) cultures who are expected to pay. This completely overlooks the fact that they already corrected their wrong and gave their territories independence. In effect, the belief that only white countries must suffer is rooted in racism and bigotry. I don't see these same people saying the MENA region absolutely must suffer because of their lengthy history of slaving.

I'm not really into fuzzy, open-ended suffrage timetables, especially when they aren't applied across the board. I have a lot of criticisms of Turkey but at least they do have refugee camps there, got to give them credit.

And the Mongol Empire was much larger than the Ottoman Empire and yet its much less relevant to current affairs because it ended long ago. The European empires were much larger and ended more recently than the Ottoman Empire and thus are more relevant on a global scale. Where the Ottoman Empire is relevant, in the Middle East, almost no one talks about about it and in fact I've mentioned it numerous times.

And I even said that colonial history should not inspire individual white guilt or public policy but I find it laughable when people cry foul when grievances stemming from European colonialism are mentioned and fingers are pointed at much less relevant empires. The Ottomans are the only other empire that come close to having any modern relevance and in terms of scope and how recent it was dismantled its still behind the European empires.

And like I said earlier I find it laughable that Brits are complaining about globalization and economic integration when they pioneered it at the end of a gun.

You're right, it isn't applied across the board and it is a little hypocritical that German nationalists have to constantly be reminded of the ills of Nazism while almost half of the British are still proud of their empire. But I guess when you kill white people it tends to get remembered more vividly.

 

[MusterX]

Most of the leaders of the world don't want strong independent nations. Sovereignty has becomes as bad as a 4 letter word. I'm telling you, Cameron quitting is one of the most wtf moments I've seen on the world stage. He literally quit like a bitch when the people voted for something he didn't want.

 

[Goatenstein]

At least climate change is now a non-issue because the tears of the loser remain crowd are going to flood Earth.

 

[PrinceOfPain]

Also people were more likely to have voted to leave the older they were so they have less chance to live to see the consequences.

This is such a bizarre argument. Do people really think that old folks go into voting booths thinking, "fuck yeah, I've only got another 15 years left, I'm gonna booby-trap the future for those damned kids!"?

 

[TheStruggle]

If influence is lost, jobs are lost, and competitive ability are lost, isn't that basically losing freedom? Ie, your ability to impact the world, provide for your people, assert your power on the world market.

They were already losing those in the EU. Restrictions set by the EU on workers severely hurt the productivity and freedom of the people. Bringing in immigrants in the millions, you think those immigrants were going to magically bring jobs with them? No they were taking the jobs that locally already struggled to get because the EU had to 'integrate' them into society. The EU is on the beginning stage of destruction now that the UK has left. It's going to take 2 years to officially leave anyway and solutions weren't coming overnight but this had to be done to improve their future for the next 2-5 years going forward. Big Banks and Big Business couldn't use the fear card to keep them there forever.

 

[conorbless1]

Can someone outline the positive effects this is having or going to have? All I see are negatives, the markets have taken a dive and there isn't an end in sight. Maybe someone who is pro-Brexit can tell me when that will stop. If a recession actually starts, was that expected on the pro-leave side, is it worth it?

Brexiters refer to an amorphous and obscure idea of sovereignty and independence that apparently will be regained. Except that if they want to have access to the European single market they will have to submit to the same rules, but now they won't take part in the law making process.

 

[Thames]

That's not the point.

It's fully expected that the UK will join the European Economic Area. This entitles the UK with access to the single market. EEA members have to accept all EU rules and free movement of people. They also have to pay into it; access isn't free. Also, you have no decision making capacity as an EEA member.

So we go from a situation where we:
Pay into the EU, accept all EU rules, accept free movement of labour AND have a say in how the rules are created; to
all of the above with NO say in how rules get created.

We pay exactly the same and get less. This decision making capability is utterly crucial. Today is a great example of this that will be appreciated by anyone with any nous whatsoever. Lord Hill resigned as leader of the financial services office in the EU. This is a post that the UK lobbied hard for to control the direction of financial services because it's a massive part of our economy. Now that influence is gone. Some frenchman will be taking up this post in all likelihood with all the influence that goes with it. The EBA located in London will have to locate. EU funding will go. Cornwall is already asking for guarantees that it will get money back that it will lose.

The net benefit is what exactly?

People think that they're going to get back all the money from the EU and they are flat out wrong.

Watching Farage and Hannan backpedal as they embrace the reality of the situation would be funny if I wasn't affected by this looming mess. Boris and Gove looked like they just pushed their car into a lake. "What now?"

Mark my words: this is going to be awful. The UK (minus Scotland most likely) won't go under. But we will suffer for it: in terms of jobs, global profile and influence. I'm not for EU sanctions against Russia, but how long do you think they will last without the US's chief advocate in the EU? Do you really not appreciate how having a seat at the time of the EU is a massive benefit for the UK?

Our economy was on the way up. Now we've sacrificed that for uncertainty and false promises. By the time we all realise the damage will have been done.

Very good post. Is it really expected that the U.K is going to join the EEA? That would seem absurd. But of course, this whole situation is.

As an aside, I would also like to mention that the working class in the U.K is probably going to take a hit (with the conservative party in rule).
The U.K was one of the countries with the worst labour standards before EU set minimum standards e.g. EU membership have granted them a higher minimum wage, maternity leave, better working conditions (e.g. making working with asbestos illegal) etc.
The conservative party is probably also a lot less ambitious than the E.U, when it comes to environmental standards and combating climate change.

 

[Codger]

That's not the point.

It's fully expected that the UK will join the European Economic Area. This entitles the UK with access to the single market. EEA members have to accept all EU rules and free movement of people. They also have to pay into it; access isn't free. Also, you have no decision making capacity as an EEA member.

Is it?

Says who? Maybe it would be a good initial step but might not be the final one. Maybe we negotiate something different? The Germans are talking about "associate partner status" - not sure what that is but it's something new by the sound of it. So it's not "fully expected" at all. It's unknown, which is a worry of course.

Also it's not true that you have to accept "all EU rules". "Both Norway and Switzerland keep out of some EU activities, such as the Common Agricultural Policy. But they bring many of their laws into line with EU rules, on the single market in particular. Norway incorporates single market rules as they’re made, while Switzerland accepts EU law from time to time in return for more market access."

"the Norwegians are not as passive in the EU law-making process as is suggested by Remain campaigners. They will be informally consulted on any proposal for a new EU law made by the European Commission. Norwegian experts participate in putting together the draft in the same way as EU member countries’ experts. This influence is limited, however, by Norway not having any vote on the final EU law which is adopted. But there is more wiggle room for EEA countries than for EU countries in the obligations on them to follow EU law." Bear in mind that the UK vote was worth 7% of the total votes so not all-powerful.

It's not as simple as either side paint it to be: https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-norway/

And both still choose to stay out so clearly think it's better than being in.

 

[MusterX]

That's because young people are too busy listening to the John Oliver's and Rachel Maddow's of the world feeding them globalists talking points to form their own opinions. Why do you think people finally smarter up the older they get? They can finally see through the bullshit because they aren't the impressionable dumb college kids they use to be.

There used to be a time when you didn't have to get old and wise to know that. I can tell you that growing up in the U.S. when I did, there was none of this globalist agenda bullshit going on and we said our pledge of allegiance in the morning and we knew that freedom, and independence, and sovereignty was the cornerstone of our society. This idea of having a strong, and sovereign nation is like donkey porn to liberals. Its the worse fate they can think of. Its got bad in the U.S. too. Look how often you see a school try to make someone take down an American flag so nobody will be offended. Its insanity and it starts at the K-12 level.

 

[MicroBrew]

Oh please.

You make it sound like a bad thing that those with their whole lives and careers ahead of them would care deeply about exactly that. While pensioners with nothing but day-time tv ahead for them should be be determining how the former should live. There's a reason why society changes with the generations.

And the elderly care about the future of the country , their children and grandchildren.

I take it you were in the Remain camp. You also know that a large reason for Leave winning was immigration. And I gather from your posts here that you are an Iranian and or Persian nationalist so why are you opposed to Nationalist British sympathies .

 

[Ruprecht]

Most of the leaders of the world don't want strong independent nations. Sovereignty has becomes as bad as a 4 letter word. I'm telling you, Cameron quitting is one of the most wtf moments I've seen on the world stage. He literally quit like a bitch when the people voted for something he didn't want.

That's pretty normal for a PM calling a referendum on something like that. They're staking the legitimacy of their representation on it.
Pretty much guarantee he would have faced a leadership challenge and lost if he hadn't (this isn't a presidency remember).
Our current PM was actually ousted by our former PM (turn around is fair play) for making a similar stand on Climate Change (internally though, not national referendum).

 

[Sauron]

The seat at the top table is important for the Tony Blairs of this world, but doesn't really represent control for the 'man in the street' who (increasingly) is opposed to the decisions made by such people and feels they have a negative impact on their life (which they do, IMO), and also the world around them (just look at the disasters wrought by 'our' powerful institutions in Libya, Iraq, Syria, & the handling of the fallout (Merkel sez take 'em all in, dissent and you will be punished, Visegrad scallywags, your plebians must bow down to the control of the top-table!), none of which would have happened if those decisions were at the control of the wider populii rather than a cabal of unelected Tony Blairs 'at the top seat' with that 'power and control' I am somehow supposed to think is important for 'me' to have.

The seat at the top table is important for us all. It cascades down to every area of this country. If you don't have a say in the decision then you are beholden to those that do. A country does have a different personality, and has interests that it should protect.

We have elected representatives who are supposed to make informed decisions. I didn't agree with Syria or Iraq as well; but economic policy shouldn't be determined by the barista at starbucks.

I don't agree that pure democracy is the best solution.

 

[Tycho]

If influence is lost, jobs are lost, and competitive ability are lost, isn't that basically losing freedom? Ie, your ability to impact the world, provide for your people, assert your power on the world market.

Let's wait until we actually leave before you start making assumptions about our future prosperity.

This was a massive shock for the markets - that always leads to big turmoil. Its not certain yet what the effects of us leaving will be. I tend to think we will continue trading with Europe while ignoring the EU (who are gradually becoming more and more irrelevant anyway)

 

[Codger]

As an aside, I would also like to mention that the working class in the U.K is probably going to take a hit (with the conservative party in rule).
The U.K was one of the countries with the worst labour standards before EU set minimum standards e.g. EU membership have granted them a higher minimum wage, maternity leave, better working conditions (e.g. making working with asbestos illegal) etc.
The conservative party is probably also a lot less ambitious than the E.U, when it comes to environmental standards and combating climate change.

I really don't like the idea that people should want to stay in the EU because it gives them more left wing policies that they vote for in democratic, national elections.
It also assumes the conservatives will be in power forever. The history of the UK isn't conservative but a mix of parties. Labour will get in again and implement things they were ELECTED to do.

If people want different benefits or whatever then campaign for them and vote someone in.

 

[Ruprecht]

Very good post. Is it really expected that the U.K is going to join the EEA? That would seem absurd. But of course, this whole situation is.

As an aside, I would also like to mention that the working class in the U.K is probably going to take a hit (with the conservative party in rule).
The U.K was one of the countries with the worst labour standards before EU set minimum standards e.g. EU membership have granted them a higher minimum wage, maternity leave, better working conditions (e.g. making working with asbestos illegal) etc.
The conservative party is probably also a lot less ambitious than the E.U, when it comes to environmental standards and combating climate change.

The trade unions supported Remain for precisely that reason.

 

[Videer]

Oh my.

 

[Codger]

Let's wait until we actually leave before you start making assumptions about our future prosperity.

This was a massive shock for the markets - that always leads to big turmoil. Its not certain yet what the effects of us leaving will be. I tend to think we will continue trading with Europe while ignoring the EU (who are gradually becoming more and more irrelevant anyway)

A massive shock that saw the FTSE index close HIGHER than the start of the week!

The doom-mongering is amazing right now. The Dutch government predictions are a certain drop in GDP over fifteen years! To put that in perspective, about that time ago, Google were in a garage.....and they pretend they can predict a figure over that sort of period.

 

[MusterX]

It's amazing how in such a short amount of time people have been brainwashed into thinking that having a say on who can work and live in your own land is considered racism and bigotry, that's absolute insanity. By that metric, Canada is racist, the US is racist, Australia is racist, everyone's racist. The EU is not that old, even someone in their 20s will remember that life was normal before, the doomday's talk makes no sense. Probably a good thing this got settled now, allow this to fester for another 10 years and the hysteria would have been doubled and a large portion of the voting public would have no knowledge or memory of life sans EU.

The U.S. is guilty of traveling the same path. We are led by a bunch of closet globalists. Think of the last 15 years, we have had war non stop, trillions of dollars spent, terrorist attacks all over the globe, and what does the U.S. do? We leave our border with Mexico wide open. Now why would we do that? The only reason you would insist on keeping the back door unlocked is if you are a globalist. Its to the point now where if you oppose illegal immigration then you are a racist. Its horseshit. The key word in the phrase is ILLEGAL, but they want that door open as if we are all one huge country, one world.

 

[ncordless]

Independence and sovereignty should be celebrated. Frankly its disturbing as fuck the number of young people who can't seem to grasp its importance.

Neither is a pure good, rather each can be good or bad depending.

Brexit didn't add or remove sovereignty from this world, it mere shifted where some of it resides. UK has shifted from placing some of its sovereignty to the EU in exchange for representation in the sovereign body, to retaining that sovereignty and having to deal with EU on a co-sovereign level. All other examples of this arrangement (eg Norway) show that what ends up happening is that the non-EU sovereign ends up having to adopt much of the will of the EU anyway, and the real result is just regulation without representation. Maybe UK will buck that trend. Maybe not.