Bret Hart Shawn Michaels

[Halifax]

Bischoff wanted Bret because WCW was still struggling overseas even when they were kicking WWE's ass here. Hall and Nash welcomed him with open arms because they had a favored nations clause in their contracts.

Hall, Nash and Bischoff in his book stated that they all waived their favored nations clauses to allow Bischoff to get Bret.

Initially, Bret was gotten specifically because they needed more top names. Turner was adamant that they should have another 2 hour TV show on Thursdays, and even though nobody thought it was a good idea, they went along with it. They severely overexposed a lot of wrestlers and made it even more boring.

Instead of relegating them properly to 1 show(the way WWE eventually did separate brands), they had a lot of big names appear on both shows and the overexposure was bad for them.

When it comes down to it, Hall and Nash had one political group in the locker room, Hogan had another and they were always at odds with booking. Hart didn't join either political group and so both thought he was against them, so he had no allies anywhere

 

[Hitman81]

Prime is subjective.

Yeah but let's be honest. Shawn was nowhere near his prime in 92.

 

[Hitman81]

I agree with Vince McMahon when he says he knew WCW wasn't going to know what to do with Bret Hart. He was doomed from the start, it was never going to work. He could have been booked better obviously but looking back I don't know what they could have done with him. Just fed him to the nWo like everyone else? Bret got on board a ship that was about to begin sinking and he was damaged goods from the screw job in my opinion.

 

[The Diplomat]

Yeah but let's be honest. Shawn was nowhere near his prime in 92.

He had one of the greatest ladder matches in history in 1994, so it's not like Shawn wasn't capable of having 5 star matches back then. But yeah, he didn't really evolve his move set and style until 94-95.

Other than their title match in 92, they also had the first ladder match in the WWF (might have also been the first ladder match in American wrestling, as it had been done before in Japan and Canada/Stampede Wrestling, where Bret had his first in 84)



Bret likes taking credit for introducing the idea to Vince and the WWF.

 

[the ambush]

It has been mentioned countless times here the concept of WCW feuding Hogan-Bret, who were both top super stars at the time. I believe Bret squabbling about the Hulkster being a poltical baby backstage has some merit to it. Hogan probably did not want the spot light taken away, yet he also took it away from so many others before him.

 

[Hitman81]

He had one of the greatest ladder matches in history in 1994, so it's not like Shawn wasn't capable of having 5 star matches back then. But yeah, he didn't really evolve his move set and style until 94-95.

Other than their title match in 92, they also had the first ladder match in the WWF (might have also been the first ladder match in American wrestling, as it had been done before in Japan and Canada/Stampede Wrestling, where Bret had his first in 84)



Bret likes taking credit for introducing the idea to Vince and the WWF.

I'm not saying Shawn wasn't really good or even great in '92, but was he '96/'97 Shawn? Absolutely not. In those few years he got into tremendous shape, learned to cut a confident promo, and went from being a good performer to the top one or two performers in the business. The ladder matches were great but they were gimmick matches. He had better matches later on without the gimmick.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

It sucks those two only had the two matches. I didn't realize I had seen their entire feud in terms of the wrestling they did against each other...

Hart in WCW...they could have done anything - anything but what they did. I had kind of assumed he would do an "NWO Red and White" and make a kind of Canadian New World Order faction, the NWO could claim they would "sue him" for copyright infringement, whatever - you get the leader of the NWO vs Hart in a match and Hart loses his version of the NWO. If it's Hart vs Hogan, Hogan could rip the Red and White NWo shirt in half. Canadians would have bought those t-shirts by the boatload.

Or you could have had Hart come in and make a specific thing about the US title to keep him away from the world title, it would have worked given his nationalism stuff.

I mean this stuff isn't too hard to come up with. They could have used his real-life heat with the WWF and had him become a face, saying things like "Vince forced me to do a lot of things I didn't want to do, like trash Americans and America. I got American friends. I got American family. I've spent my life in America - America has been good to me. I lost all them, then got screwed and kicked to the curb. So now what what?"

Then you get some feud going with Flair calling Bret a liar, saying he hated America all his life, Hart denies it, and by the end of the feud he helps out someone like hacksaw jim duggan or gets embraced by one of thoe more "American patriot" type wrestlers. Bam, nationalism issue done.

This shit isn't that hard to come up with ffs.

 

[FrankieNYC]

Overall, Bret was a huge politic guy in WWF. He routinely tried changing finishes to make himself go over more and really only cared about how he was portrayed.

100% spot on.
Hart is also FoS when it comes to how he hated "cliques"
He was the leader of his own clique (The Canadians) backstage.
Hart was liked by the locker room, but he did not do anything to change WWE for the better.
He was happy & content being the Big Fish in the Small Pond.
With the Kliq, they wanted to change things & do edgier material & more realistic storylines.
BSK were basically the police that kept everyone in order.
Scott Hall said that Bret was nicknamed the "300k Champion" (might not be the exact figure he said, but close) & that Bret was afraid to change things in WWF because he would be hurt & that Bret rather make 300k a year as champ then $750k a year as non champ, because he was such a mark for himself.

 

[Hitman81]

Ok Kev, cool story but of course if it's Bret, Taker, and you in one room talking about the finish of that will improve you and Taker's match Bret is going to be outnumbered. But Bret is right, if he got Jacknifed it would look like he won because Taker interfered which makes him look like not the real champ going to Mania which hurts his and Shawn's match.

Bret was correct in this instance. He's the champ, he's dropping the belt to Shawn, he should look strong going in. I'd be curious to hear HBKs take on it.

 

[Halifax]

Ok Kev, cool story but of course if it's Bret, Taker, and you in one room talking about the finish of that will improve you and Taker's match Bret is going to be outnumbered. But Bret is right, if he got Jacknifed it would look like he won because Taker interfered which makes him look like not the real champ going to Mania which hurts his and Shawn's match.

Bret was correct in this instance. He's the champ, he's dropping the belt to Shawn, he should look strong going in. I'd be curious to hear HBKs take on it.

Its meaningless bullshit by that point. Diesel was supposed to look strong. Credible like he could beat Bret, but lost due to interference by the undertaker. Hell, the match before, Undertaker tombstoned Bret, and had him covered till Diesel pulled him out, which lead to Diesel's feud with Taker. It was supposed to be the exact same thing.

Bret before this won the title looking like a crafty vet who was beat , but because Diesel showed a moment of compassion, he was able to use his crafty vet roll up to win. Diesel then went on to jackknife him 3 times and kill every ref in the ring en route to a "Half" heel turn again. He was kind of a bad guy, but still friends with Shawn Michaels on camera until Michaels eliminated him in the rumble. The stage was set to have multiple strong main event guys who could possibly win on a different given night and keep it interesting.

Bret wanted every finish to make him look strong. You can't always have that. When it works with the story, you make concessions Hell, he lost the title to Backlund when he was in a sub in the center of the ring with no escape and Owen tricked Helen into throwing the towel. In that scenario, it worked and looked like Bret only lost because of Owen and furthered the story.

Diesel jackknifing him does not ensure he losses in the eyes of the fans. He "may" have kicked out like he did from the perfectplex(Which was thought to be impossible). The proper thing to do there is take Diesel's finish to build the match vs Undertaker.

Diesel was willing at WM11 to give Michaels a superkick finish and only did not get pinned because Sid distracted the ref. But it furthered the storyline and allowed Michaels to make a face turn after Sid turned on him and Diesel came to the rescue. Doesn't look "strong" and looked like he as beat, but it furthered the storyline and a future Michaels vs Sid match.

 

[Hitman81]

Agree to disagree. As Bret said, him getting Jacknifed hurts him more than it helps Diesel. The way it ended they both come out of the cage match looking equal, rather than Nash's proposal which is simply to make himself look strong. Mania 12 was all about Bret and Shawn, why do anything to jeopardize that?

Bret is a mark for himself and the business but there's no doubt he also has a brilliant mind for wrestling, as opposed to I don't know, Kevin Nash. Bret knows how to book a match, including taking clean losses.

What Nash wanted is the kind of shit now where you put the belt on a guy and then let everyone best him because well, he's got the belt he doesn't need to get over. It's retarded.

 

[lakersfan45]

Agree to disagree. As Bret said, him getting Jacknifed hurts him more than it helps Diesel. The way it ended they both come out of the cage match looking equal, rather than Nash's proposal which is simply to make himself look strong. Mania 12 was all about Bret and Shawn, why do anything to jeopardize that?

Bret is a mark for himself and the business but there's no doubt he also has a brilliant mind for wrestling, as opposed to I don't know, Kevin Nash. Bret knows how to book a match, including taking clean losses.

What Nash wanted is the kind of shit now where you put the belt on a guy and then let everyone best him because well, he's got the belt he doesn't need to get over. It's retarded.

Agree I think Bret was right on that one.

 

[Hitman81]

And I don't blame Taker for getting pissed. When you're a cunt, like Bret often was, you probably come off as a cunt even when you're not really being a cunt. Bret probably turned down a lot of booking when he shouldn't have so when he makes a good call it just looks like he's bitching again even when he's right.

 

[lakersfan45]

And I don't blame Taker for getting pissed. When you're a cunt, like Bret often was, you probably come off as a cunt even when you're not really being a cunt. Bret probably turned down a lot of booking when he shouldn't have so when he makes a good call it just looks like he's bitching again even when he's right.

To be fair a lot of brets paranoia was warranted. I know he was a huge mark for himself but beyond that a lot of what he says and was upset about was true

He puts bulldog over in his first huge marquee main event
Never gets that huge main event win or fued over someone like hogan/savage/warrior
Wrestlemania 9 hulk walks right back in and does the job Bret can't and wins the title
----- after all that you could see how Bret would be paranoid/protective of his spot.
Then the wwf pushes Luger to the moon in a way we have never seen before.
Shawn Michaels is pushed as a face and now Bret loses to Shawn. This is a big one and the one causing the stir up Nash is talking about. Bret is a face looking at another face coming up to take his place. And he's gonna lose to him clean. It makes sense he wants to protect himself as much as he can leading up to it. At the time turning heel wasn't something Bret was seriously contemplating. And he was doing Shawn the favor nobody did for him.
Shawn weasels his way out of doing the job for Bret so many times he actually starts to physically transform into a weasel
Then Bret finally turns heel and guess who turns after him --- the heart break kid

---- then the rest as we know culminates in the screw job in which for all of brets crazy paranoia, something even beyond what he thought would happen actually happened

 

[HereticBD]

Hart didnt get buried by WCW, bishoff strictly wanted him to be "the guy" to headline WCW thunder which launched in 98. But a stiff kick to the head by goldberg caused a severe concussion which caused Hart to retire early.
As much as WCW messed up, Harts career being shortlived wasnt their doing.

Hart being rendered nearly irrelevant by the time he finally wrestled a match in WCW, was completely their fault.

Rick Rude jumping ship, was treated as a bigger deal than Bret Hart, by WCW.

 

[RedFoxOne]

100% spot on.
Hart is also FoS when it comes to how he hated "cliques"
He was the leader of his own clique (The Canadians) backstage.
Hart was liked by the locker room, but he did not do anything to change WWE for the better.
He was happy & content being the Big Fish in the Small Pond.
With the Kliq, they wanted to change things & do edgier material & more realistic storylines.
BSK were basically the police that kept everyone in order.
Scott Hall said that Bret was nicknamed the "300k Champion" (might not be the exact figure he said, but close) & that Bret was afraid to change things in WWF because he would be hurt & that Bret rather make 300k a year as champ then $750k a year as non champ, because he was such a mark for himself.

When it comes to Nash and Hall, what's best for business surprisingly coincides with what's best for them.

The Kliq only cared about getting themselves over. They were all great talents, and Nash had a great business acumen, but that's pretty much where it ends.

As I've stated before, Vince couldn't even pay Bret what he guaranteed him. You think Vince is going to pay Bret, Shawn, Nash and Hall and The Undertaker upwards of $750,000 a year?

Nash and Hall can go on and on about "marks" and "business", but apart of the business is protecting your character. Ask Hot Rod what that can do for your career.

Ok Kev, cool story but of course if it's Bret, Taker, and you in one room talking about the finish of that will improve you and Taker's match Bret is going to be outnumbered. But Bret is right, if he got Jacknifed it would look like he won because Taker interfered which makes him look like not the real champ going to Mania which hurts his and Shawn's match.

Bret was correct in this instance. He's the champ, he's dropping the belt to Shawn, he should look strong going in. I'd be curious to hear HBKs take on it.

+1

Once again, Nash thinks Bret has to acquiesce to him and The Undertaker. LOL Nevermind that he has to drop the belt clean to Shawn at the same event.

Let's not forget that Vince buries Bret throughout the whole broadcast

Its meaningless bullshit by that point. Diesel was supposed to look strong. Credible like he could beat Bret, but lost due to interference by the undertaker. Hell, the match before, Undertaker tombstoned Bret, and had him covered till Diesel pulled him out, which lead to Diesel's feud with Taker. It was supposed to be the exact same thing.

And it makes Bret look weak as champion. Weak champions don't draw.

See Wrestlemania IX.

Bret before this won the title looking like a crafty vet who was beat , but because Diesel showed a moment of compassion, he was able to use his crafty vet roll up to win. Diesel then went on to jackknife him 3 times and kill every ref in the ring en route to a "Half" heel turn again. He was kind of a bad guy, but still friends with Shawn Michaels on camera until Michaels eliminated him in the rumble. The stage was set to have multiple strong main event guys who could possibly win on a different given night and keep it interesting.

Bonanza title changes didn't start to become a regularity until '97/'98/'99

Bret wanted every finish to make him look strong. You can't always have that. When it works with the story, you make concessions Hell, he lost the title to Backlund when he was in a sub in the center of the ring with no escape and Owen tricked Helen into throwing the towel. In that scenario, it worked and looked like Bret only lost because of Owen and furthered the story.

Diesel jackknifing him does not ensure he losses in the eyes of the fans. He "may" have kicked out like he did from the perfectplex(Which was thought to be impossible). The proper thing to do there is take Diesel's finish to build the match vs Undertaker.

Once again, these false finishes make Bret look like a beaten champion. Undertaker could have beaten him. Diesel could have beaten him. Michaels beats him.

He's got to protect himself.

To be fair a lot of brets paranoia was warranted. I know he was a huge mark for himself but beyond that a lot of what he says and was upset about was true

He puts bulldog over in his first huge marquee main event
Never gets that huge main event win or fued over someone like hogan/savage/warrior
Wrestlemania 9 hulk walks right back in and does the job Bret can't and wins the title
----- after all that you could see how Bret would be paranoid/protective of his spot.
Then the wwf pushes Luger to the moon in a way we have never seen before.
Shawn Michaels is pushed as a face and now Bret loses to Shawn. This is a big one and the one causing the stir up Nash is talking about. Bret is a face looking at another face coming up to take his place. And he's gonna lose to him clean. It makes sense he wants to protect himself as much as he can leading up to it. At the time turning heel wasn't something Bret was seriously contemplating. And he was doing Shawn the favor nobody did for him.
Shawn weasels his way out of doing the job for Bret so many times he actually starts to physically transform into a weasel
Then Bret finally turns heel and guess who turns after him --- the heart break kid

---- then the rest as we know culminates in the screw job in which for all of brets crazy paranoia, something even beyond what he thought would happen actually happened

+1

Outside of Wrestlemania X, Bret was never given a strong rub by anyone.

Even then, the stupid ring post had to break for Bret to beat Yokozuna.

 

[Hitman81]

To be fair a lot of brets paranoia was warranted. I know he was a huge mark for himself but beyond that a lot of what he says and was upset about was true

He puts bulldog over in his first huge marquee main event
Never gets that huge main event win or fued over someone like hogan/savage/warrior
Wrestlemania 9 hulk walks right back in and does the job Bret can't and wins the title
----- after all that you could see how Bret would be paranoid/protective of his spot.
Then the wwf pushes Luger to the moon in a way we have never seen before.
Shawn Michaels is pushed as a face and now Bret loses to Shawn. This is a big one and the one causing the stir up Nash is talking about. Bret is a face looking at another face coming up to take his place. And he's gonna lose to him clean. It makes sense he wants to protect himself as much as he can leading up to it. At the time turning heel wasn't something Bret was seriously contemplating. And he was doing Shawn the favor nobody did for him.
Shawn weasels his way out of doing the job for Bret so many times he actually starts to physically transform into a weasel
Then Bret finally turns heel and guess who turns after him --- the heart break kid

---- then the rest as we know culminates in the screw job in which for all of brets crazy paranoia, something even beyond what he thought would happen actually happened

I agree that Bret had every right to be paranoid and a little pissed about how he was handled as champion and top baby face in the company. He earned his spot, he was the best performer in the company and well over. All the bullshit with Hogan in 1993 aside, the fed then decides to push Luger. He doesn't get over so they put the belt back on Bret. Then he has to basically drop it to another face, Diesel via Backlund. Diesel can't get over so they put the belt back on Bret. Shawn is a tremendous talent and a heel, Bret sees him as a guy he can probably work a long angle and draw money with. Just kidding Shawns now a face and you have to drop the belt to him. Bret must have been like wtf? He's over, he never has bad matches, yet the fed is intent on replacing him instead of giving him good heels to work against. I think Bret was seriously looking for a way out in 1996 so he passed the torch to Shawn. And by the time he came back the business had changed and he was able to reinvent himself and find a good role. Then they're like just kidding Shawn is heel now too. No wonder Bret was pissed, he had a guy younger than him, just as talented trying to take his spot all the time rather than trying to work with him.

 

[the ambush]

Hogan's a politician and would cry over the idea of losing a match to Bret or Shawn. They were too "small" of wrestlers.

 

[ArchGoat]

Hogan's a politician and would cry over the idea of losing a match to Bret or Shawn. They were too "small" of wrestlers.

Indeed that's why Bret hates Hogan and always buries him in interviews.

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

Hart Austin survivor series 96 is as great as their mania match but not mentioned nearly as much

Austin's MSG entrance is almost as good as the Chicago one - If only they had the glass break at MSG