Boxing strategy in a mma/muay thai fight context

[KarateStylist]

Well yes, but if Buakaw was allowed to clinch, he wouldn't have taken so many punches and if you throw elbows into the mix, he might have been able to finish Dida (elbows were his favorite weapons back in the day). Buakaw's style is actually perfect against boxers because he's not even trying to box in the first place.

Those are certainly the technical points which round out Buakaw's technique roster. OTOH, he accepted a K1 match with certain rules knowing that. So then we are back to my thesis of who had the better striking skill based on punching. Dida lit him up. The hands up guard of a Muay Thai expert proved ineffective against those dexterous hands. Buakaw was in deep waters despite all the promotion about how effective Muay Thai is striking wise. It's over-rated.

I think with full Thai rules and without corrupt judges, Buakaw would have won the K1 WGP every year.

Yeah, the prizefighting environment is another layer of reality. Nonetheless, these top Muay Thai champions always set a very hight bar for any opponent.

Muay Thai emphasis on physical conditioning & toughness is latched onto by MMA competitors as a core means to defeat opponents. And it's been very, very effective against the MMA-karate stylists, as I've mentioned. What's been missed by MMA Camps, coaches & competitors alike is that against higher level striking as represented by Dida, Muay Thai's execution suffers mightily.

The quality deficit of MMA competitors in their striking has elevated Muay Thai's success in MMA. So the implication is that to assess the style, objective assessment has to take into account the relative skill levels in the venue.

 

[KarateStylist]

Well yes, but if Buakaw was allowed to clinch, he wouldn't have taken so many punches and if you throw elbows into the mix, he might have been able to finish Dida (elbows were his favorite weapons back in the day).

I think you've also made an key point about MMA and in selecting fighting styles. The bottom line result accomplished by Dida is that he had better skill in his hands. The basic skill of when, how & where to strike. I always allow for Muay Thai to develop this potential but the training doesn't really prove this out.

Buakaw's style is actually perfect against boxers because he's not even trying to box in the first place.

Again, a key point, which is inclusive of MMA game planing. I follow Stephen Thompson as one might expect. And we had the same dynamic play out in his recent fight with Anthony Pettis. Thompson piecing Pettis up pretty good. Then KAPOW,! Anthony pulls off the spectacular leaping hook KO. Prior to that, Anthony was having good success putting off Thompson's game with those Duke Roufus low kicks. That helped him set up Thompson (really Thompson then set up himself) for the Round 2 KO.

Stephen Thompson can't allow for the fact that low kicks are conventionally excluded from most karate competitions and in class sparring. An art is not defined by it's conventions.

 

[KarateStylist]

A good discussion is needed here so I got this video I welcome people to post defensive+offensive solutions in terms of MMA BJJ what and how to pull from such low attacks.......watch......

[link omitted]

The hands up foot forward is the give away here.

BJJ is great for those low attacks but there some things you can do to counter but welcome others to open the discussion as its related to OP.............

Here, we have the classic Grappler over Striker demonstration. MMA really has put striking dominant arts on notice with this dynamic.

The scenario plays out, a nightmare for the striker, because of a very large skill deficit. He dances around, prances around supposedly looking for some opening against the grappler which never comes... because his poor skill affords the grappler exactly that.

I also commented about this @ the Muay Thai sparring video where free sparring is made a central part of the training regimen... when the participants are only going out there repeating some monkey-see-monkey do they been told and have observed in class. Modern karate students & competitors equally guilty.

The losing striker depends on 'movement' to avoid his opponent, throw him off. Maybe toss in some feint or jab to ward him back. This is dumbity x 12. Has zero effect against the trained BJJ opponent as advanced by the author.

This is perhaps the best contribution of the Gracies, in that there is nothing like BJJ to school the striker who has little handle on the basics of his craft, the factors which make technique effective. Grounded & punched out.

 

[FighterTwister]

Here, we have the classic Grappler over Striker demonstration. MMA really has put striking dominant arts on notice with this dynamic.

The scenario plays out, a nightmare for the striker, because of a very large skill deficit. He dances around, prances around supposedly looking for some opening against the grappler which never comes... because his poor skill affords the grappler exactly that.

I also commented about this @ the Muay Thai sparring video where free sparring is made a central part of the training regimen... when the participants are only going out there repeating some monkey-see-monkey do they been told and have observed in class. Modern karate students & competitors equally guilty.

The losing striker depends on 'movement' to avoid his opponent, throw him off. Maybe toss in some feint or jab to ward him back. This is dumbity x 12. Has zero effect against the trained BJJ opponent as advanced by the author.

This is perhaps the best contribution of the Gracies, in that there is nothing like BJJ to school the striker who has little handle on the basics of his craft, the factors which make technique effective. Grounded & punched out.

Movement is good but a Boxer should be closing the distance not skirting around at distance this is the area where BJJ will take advantage instantly as you can see in below picture.

You can see first no thought of opponent skill level or who he is, simply a case of being to over confident.

Secondly, his left foot put forward before any attacking strike is initiated, his guard is up thats good but to early, his posture is his defense in that situation already.

Possible attack using the same tactic was to circle to the side then attack on a blind side limiting any counter but even then, high risk.

Example from video I posted on defensive counter attack as one suggestive action............

When this happens............

Go into a drop down sprawl into guillotine choke...............

That is one of many things you can do if you have extensive martial arts training.

In this case the trap if you ask me was a mental attitude of posturing and thinking one dimensional in a unsanctioned street fight with no rules.

 

[KarateStylist]

Movement is good but a Boxer should be closing the distance not skirting around at distance this is the area where BJJ will take advantage instantly as you can see in below picture.

Well, each must close-the-distance. The striker seems to be using his mobility to avoid the takedown instead. Strikers of all styles typically rely on same. To disastrous ends.

You can see first no thought of opponent skill level or who he is, to over confidence.

I feel the video author, although he goes about in in the MMA game planning venacular, has the right take. I'll put it my way and that is the striker doesn't know what hes' doing. Outside of some striking stuff hes' picked up. Dancing around, hands in some kind of guard then not, looking for some kind of opening to happen along. Whoops, the grapplers in like a flash and the striker's still figuring out what to do.

Secondly, his left foot put forward before any attacking strike is initiated, his guard is up thats good but to early his posture is his defense in that situation already.

Maybe so. MMA analysts approach this micro management of the competitors. I'm still with my first view along with the author. The striker has no clear idea of what to do. In the meantime, hes' staying away... then searching for some opening to appear.

Possible attack using the same tactic was to circle to the side then attack on a blind side limiting any counter but even then, high risk.

Dunno. The BJJ guy can move too. Therein's the dilemma.

Example from video I posted on defensive counter attack as one suggestive action............

When this happens............

Go into a drop down sprawl into guillotine choke...............

From MMA, the initial response would typically be the sprawl. To which you added a follow on technique. I know BJJ tries to slide the head, tuck it out of the way. However, from my perspective you've pointed out a universal weakness of the grappler... leading with the head. In karate, un, uh.

That is one of many things you can do if you have extensive martial arts training.

You are prepared. The striker wasn't.

In this case the trap if you ask me was a mental attitude of posturing and thinking one dimensional in a unsanctioned street fight with no rules.

Yeah, the striker guy came to test himself & got tooled. Why I don't like large emphasis on sparring.

On the striking end, there have been some really wicked MMA replies by strikers knocking the heads off grapplers ducking in for the take down. By self defense, one of the worst things you can do against a disciplined striker. Failure can be catastrophic in proportion.

Again, and as your counter indicates, never a good idea to underestimate BJJ. It's very pragmatic.

 

[StopDucking]

Those are certainly the technical points which round out Buakaw's technique roster. OTOH, he accepted a K1 match with certain rules knowing that. So then we are back to my thesis of who had the better striking skill based on punching. Dida lit him up. The hands up guard of a Muay Thai expert proved ineffective against those dexterous hands. Buakaw was in deep waters despite all the promotion about how effective Muay Thai is striking wise. It's over-rated.

How can you say muay thai is overrated when the fight you're basing that conclusion on was not a muay thai fight? It's like saying MMA is overrated because McGregor lost to Mayweather in a fight that wasn't MMA.

Muay thay is about kicks, punches, knees and elbows. Elbows weren't allowed and cliching wasn't allowed, which basically takes away the knees. So what you're saying is that muay thai is overrated if you take away half of a thai fighter's weapons. The same goes for every martial art; a boxer wouldn't be as effective if he could only use 1 of his arms as opposed to both.

Yes, the high guard isn't the optimal way to defend against punches. That's not what it's supposed to do. Its purpose is to block high kicks and elbows and make it easier to push the opponent into kicking distance or initiate the clinch to throw knees and elbows. Take away clinching and elbows and the thai guard becomes less effective. It doesn't mean muay thai itself is overrated.

If you compare the Buakaw vs Masato fight from 2004 (no elbows but with full clinching) with the same fight from 2007 (no 2-handed clinch and only 1 knee before the break), it's obvious the organizers had to change the ruleset to give the better boxer a chance. With no restrictions, muay thai is superior to boxing in every way, just like MMA is superior to muay thai. It's not even close.

 

[KarateStylist]

How can you say muay thai is overrated when the fight you're basing that conclusion on was not a muay thai fight? It's like saying MMA is overrated because McGregor lost to Mayweather in fight that wasn't MMA.

Quite easily. Because the boxer outstruck the Muay Thai stylist... in the beginning. And which is the whole point of MMA, not rule books. Who's the better competition inclusive of style within a given rule set.

Muay thay is about kicks, punches, knees and elbows. Elbows weren't allowed and cliching wasn't allowed, which basically takes away the knees. So what you're saying is that muay thai is overrated if you take away half of a thai fighter's weapons. The same goes with every martial art; a boxer wouldn't be as effective if he could use 1 of his arms as opposed to both.

Well, you are correct on technique but not on skill. Skill is evidenced through technique, but it's essence is independent of technique. If I'm a Muay Thai fighter and I call out a boxer 'cause I think I'm better and he out punches me... then my punching skill is weaker and could certainly cause me to lose the fight.

Moreover, the boxer can go to dirty boxing if Muay Thai weapons are allowed. Anyway, we don't want to get too dogmatic just so as to assuage the Muay Thai audience, at least I don't.

Yes, the high guard isn't the optimal way to defend against punches. That's not what it's supposed to do. Its purpose is to block high kicks and elbows and make it easier to push the opponent into kicking distance or initiate the clinch to throw knees and elbows. Take away clinching and elbows and the thai guard becomes less effective. It doesn't mean muay thai itself is overrated.

Iv'e never trained Muay Thai, so you have me on that. What I do know is that the Muay Thai champ had trouble with his version of the high guard against the boxer. SOOOO, food for thought Muay Thai stylists. I / we have witnessed successful boxing type guards by boxers, and my impression is that it takes both very good form & a good dose of intelligence in it's application. And that is not easy against a deft-handed boxing opponent.

If you compare the Buakaw vs Masato fight from 2004 (no elbows but with full clinching) with the same fight from 2007 (no 2-handed clinch and only 1 knee before the break), it's obsious the organizers had to change the rule to give the better boxer a chance. With no restrictions, muay thai is superior to boxing in every way, just like MMA is superior to muay thai. It's not even close.

Look, these style vs. style comparisons have to have some equal basis, or they become silly. Like Floyd going into an MMA fight with Nieky Holzken and Floyd only punches. Or Floyd taking on Andy Hug & kyokushin champions with punches only. I feel the best way to view these fights is to look at how & why each competitor fares and draw inferences from that.

I will agree and believe I have said that one of Muay Thai' biggest strength's is its versatility in technique. That's not a panacea, however, for the basic skills in principle. And Dida evidenced that against Buakaw.



[/QUOTE]

Well, that first fight was pretty exciting and intense both. Buakaw is obviously gifted with an excellently conditioned superman like physique. Masato very good job of standing up to him. I thought Buakaw was going to get a stoppage, it but it went the distance.

Second fight, more of same. Rule driven?

Here's where I am coming from. There are two overall dimensions to martial art skill. One is the fundamental base of the skill, then two its' technical vector (your punches, elbows, knees, etc.)

In traditional karate I'm most concerned with the first. Second, by the curriculum, no style has more technical diversity than karate. The pragmatic answer, however, is simpler in expression. We as martial artists, have to have an answer for whatever the opponent brings. Then the venue sets a secondary limitation or expression of that.

For example, MMA allows low kicks while karate kumite generally does not. So if I am a karate stylist competing in MMA, I must have an answer to low kicks by my opponent. By principles of karate, this becomes conceptually easy. Where it's hard is when competitors think like MMA or individual stylists having a certain technical set then trying to cut & paste a technical answer onto the plethora of possible situations.

 

[FighterTwister]

Boxing strategy in a mma/muay thai fight context

......... in context...........

Always focus on countering the attack line, create angles and never allow the opponent to read you or become to predictable.

When the opportunity opens then just strike aim to destroy going in hard and fast and finish it.

Don't get caught in trying to out do the other guy, its a trap, just fight with keen awareness and seriousness, till its done.

Stay calm, be disciplined and breath!

 

[rmongler]

In an opposed stance matchup (ie, left vs left, or right vs right), the lead hook is one of the most useful punches in a boxing context for bridging reach disadvantages. (The body jab is also valuable in this context, though if you have the option of teeping, that is something i think anyone can benefit from developing regardless of their nominal strategy. It is not without synergy here either; if you get natural at throwing hooks off a raised leg (whether blocking your opponent with a check, or feinting), you can catch a lot of people by surprise.)

Not coincidentally, it is also a highly valuable tool in the context of others being available as well. A lead hook or lead high kick to the open side are both highly efficacious techniques, valuable tools in the hands of someone willing to invest training time in developing such dexterity. They can both have roughly equivalent range, in the sense of time to distance at moment of initiation. The lead kick is good against opponents who are looking to stand their ground, or waiting to counter-attack, and can be considered to have a longer range in terms of the ratio of hit distance to hurt distance when performing the technique. In the other part, the lead hook can come out lighting quick, and land with thunderous force, perfect for catching people getting lazy with distance management, or lazy with their strikes in general. As well, it can be used to run down opponents attempting to flee without compromising your balance by trying to kick while moving.

On a broader level, using your hands inherently carries your momentum forward, in a way that most kicks generally do not. Hence, punches can also become efficient vectors for initiating clinch exchanges. You can look at it as a coin with two sides as well; the clinch becoming a vector for covering your hand strikes, stifling your opponents counter-attack options after you have already delivered yours. This quality is in fact something many all time great boxers have exploited, themselves, for success against rivals.

When surveying recorded legacies of great competitors at this or that sport for lesions to learn, it can be important to keep in mind not getting stuck on just simply what particular movements they may be utilizing, but the spirit in which they are participating; what particular movements being a particular vehicle through which that spirit might be expressed; what strategic benefits or objectives being realized thereby. So hence, then, opening to the possibility of realizing those benefits by other means, if necessary or available; to possibly even better realize, even.

 

[KarateStylist]

In an opposed stance matchup (ie, left vs left, or right vs right), the lead hook is one of the most useful punches in a boxing context for bridging reach disadvantages. (The body jab is also valuable in this context, though if you have the option of teeping, that is something i think anyone can benefit from developing regardless of their nominal strategy. It is not without synergy here either; if you get natural at throwing hooks off a raised leg (whether blocking your opponent with a check, or feinting), you can catch a lot of people by surprise.)

We see great success with the hooks in MMA. MMA strikers habitually don't seem to be able to gauge them. I wasn't aware that Muay Thai was more susceptible to hooks. Maybe very susceptible is a better way to put it.