Boxing pivot

[panamaican]

*applauds* Good notion. It's more about moving the hip before the bodyweight moves, instead of attempting to move the entire body all at once. Or the really horrible way, moving the hip after the body moves.

However, that's one direction with one side (lead). There's another direction for that side and two more directions for the other.



Not necessarily, but I begin teaching all pivots on the heels to exaggerate keeping the weight back, until that becomes something the student doesn't think about.

Curses, I was just going to post about moving the hips first so that you stay low and balanced and then moving the rear leg, followed by the lead.

I don't about pivoting to the other side, I usually step the rear leg back at an angle to load the hips and then followed by the pivot or step forward and out with rear leg and then pivot. Poorly explained.

 

[Captain_Dammitt]

General question about the pivot here. Is there a reason people seem to abandon the pivot? Do people just learn their body and adjust accordingly or is it just simply underused?

 

[Sinister]

Just as securing angles on an opponent confuses them, some fighters are confused by taking angles. Definitely underused. Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Juan Manuel Marquez both use pivoting excellently, and thus, they are two of the best counter-punchers in boxing.

 

[Captain_Dammitt]

Just as securing angles on an opponent confuses them, some fighters are confused by taking angles. Definitely underused. Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Juan Manuel Marquez both use pivoting excellently, and thus, they are two of the best counter-punchers in boxing.

I see a lot of, I don't know what you'd call it, half pivots... does this stem from people focusing too much on pushing the foot instead of pivoting?

 

[Sinister]

Or they're just incorrect pivots.

Speaking of JMM, he used BEAUTIFUL pivoting to keep Mike Alvarado off-balance for most of their fight recently.

 

[Captain_Dammitt]

I remeber you talking about pushing vs throwing a punch. I was thinking there is a correlation between the "half pivots" and a correct pivot.

 

[MMA-JORGE]

In my gym, we generally teach a balanced "weight evenly distributed between the legs" approach. We pivot on the lead foot, but we avoid leaning forward throughout the pivot. We stay on our toes/balls of our feet throughout to keep our base, but I DO see a lot of students, myself included, occasionally lean forward too much.

You always have the option to step out slightly toward the lead foot then pivot. This widens you base and helps to avoid placing too much weight over your front foot, but keep in mind, widening your base inhibits footwork.

another thing to keep in mind is that the speed of your pivot is faster in a narrower stance, so fighters like the fellows Luis trains have naturally faster pivots because of the narrower base, which is good, but it is harder to learn. It's arguably better to learn this more physically demanding/ more complicated style of pivot as it makes you focus on your positioning early in your education which can only be good.

For the fighters who naturally fight in a wider stance, for whatever reason, slower pivoting motions are expected, but you CAN narrow your stance during the pivot and set into a modified narrower post-pivot stance, THEN set into your normal wider stance. I generally train fighters that fight lower (in wider stances) to consider this method of pivoting, as it helps with cutting off the ring/creating angles Etc. It is harder of course, but I don't agree with the idea that a fighter absolutely needs to maintain a specific stance in regards to width ALL the time, as a wide stance in certain scenarios is simply not beneficial for the in-boxer.

If this is complicated, I can make a video of it... It might sound more complex than it actually is.

 

[Sinister]

I remeber you talking about pushing vs throwing a punch. I was thinking there is a correlation between the "half pivots" and a correct pivot.

Not really, because they're different body mechanics. In the video of my fighter I posted, Jonathan is guilty of pushing punches a lot because he doesn't set his weight down before he punches, so he uses the momentum of his movement to have any force. It has some force, but not what I'd like. Just today we were working on moving defensively, THEN punching. Which allows for harder punching.

But the problem of pushing versus throwing is a different problem from poor and good pivoting.

 

[aries]

Personally, I teach a very unusual style of pivoting compared to many many other trainers. So I'm just going to put this out there for others who may like to give their perspective.

Before answering how to pivot, first understand that it's become common practice for the body weight to lift, and the head to float towards the front foot while pivoting. This compromises defensive liability by giving up distance control. An unwise fighter may not be able to capitalize on it, but it's a glaring vulnerability to pivoting technique.

So take into consideration the question: How do you correctly pivot while staying in good position I creat offense and defense?

This could be rephrased as: "How do you pivot without raising your body weight and bringing the head too far over the front foot?"

Interesting. I was wondering how I pivot, it's not by raising my weight but it doesn't seem to be like your guys either from what I see. I use the same pattern as I would to slip left (as an orthodox) so I sink my weight onto my front leg, torque my hips left and my head doesn't come forward more out to my left side. So my slip, my lead hook and my pivot all have the same motion.

 

[MMA-JORGE]

Interesting. I was wondering how I pivot, it's not by raising my weight but it doesn't seem to be like your guys either from what I see. I use the same pattern as I would to slip left (as an orthodox) so I sink my weight onto my front leg, torque my hips left and my head doesn't come forward more out to my left side. So my slip, my lead hook and my pivot all have the same motion.

There is certainly many ways to do it. A traditional pivot doesn't incorporate a slipping motion, but it is important to experiment with what works best for you. If you slip in, or toward your left (orthodox) while you pivot, it can open up lead hand shots afterward and keep you close to the opponent. Marquez does this a lot. It's almost a crouching, left slip with a pivot. He was doing this to Pacquiao a lot. It's tough to do. It's interesting because in Marquez - Pacquiao III, Marquez uses this a lot, and Pac would paw with the left and pull him around because Marquez would lean over his left foot while he pivoted an put himself out of position, so it was easy to control his base if Pac predicted the slipping/crouching pivot. Marquez would in turn try to manage the distance and throw the over-hand right when Pac reached.

They're both so damn talented...

-Jorge!

 

[giancana]

how do you deal with a guy that constantly steps backward circles and turn, for example a guy like hopkins or rather what should hagler have done against leonard to get the desired range or rather angle?

 

[MMA-JORGE]

how do you deal with a guy that constantly steps backward circles and turn, for example a guy like hopkins or rather what should hagler have done against leonard to get the desired range or rather angle?

If it's a matched pair, (Othodox/Orthodox, or Southpaw/Southpaw) you will certainly run into fighters that have a solid understanding of dealing with aggression by moving "out and to the right" or, simply out and stepping away from your power hand.

That is a situation where you are going to have to apply pressure, meaning, move in behind a busy jab to close the distance and create some angles, or shoot your jab out and pop back into position by staying on your back foot. Alternatively, you can attempt to counter-punch with them, which is not recommended, as you don't want to let the boxer always initiate exchanges, but if you have the speed/reflexes and knowledge to punch with them, it is certainly possible.

In my gym we generally advise the boxer in your position to initiate with the jab while cutting off the ring laterally. Vary your jab volume, levels, (high and low) and feint to draw out their jabs and crosses. Your going to have to stay busy and either box smart, or apply intelligent pressure. Your jab will do a lot of the work for you.

Keep in mind that the low jab generally has to be respected if used intelligently, both by the pressure fighter, and the boxer stylist alike. Although there are well understood methods for dealing with the jab to the body, you can force the boxer stylist to set down a bit more with those body jabs, and work your hooks and lateral movement.

Look at Maidana's recent fights. He does a great job of keep busy with a surprisingly intelligent, versatile jab that pays off regularly for him. Stay on that back foot when you are jabbing as well, don't fall into the trap of applying pressure and sitting on your front foot. Luis' fighters are a good example of this, and also, again, look at Maidana, that jab he is using keeps him in position and allows him to apply pressure, cut off the ring, and transition into his left hook effectively, which will help to coral the boxer back onto your line of attack.

I also recommend that you practice hooking off the jab to keep that trailing hand busy. The jab is already doing a great job of this for you, which is a wonderful secondary side effect of keeping it in his face. A snappy, well executed jab that keeps you in position has to be respected. As they are blocking it, slipping it, ducking it, gather information about their tendencies and build your subsequent shots off that. If they slip outside the jab, double it up high and tight an step in laterally to cut the distance a bit and cut the ring off. If they block it, hook off it and put some shots together, or go low with the jab. (Next time feint the low follow up and hook high) Etc.

Hope this helps...

-Jorge!

 

[giancana]

Originally Posted by giancana View Post
how do you deal with a guy that constantly steps backward circles and turn, for example a guy like hopkins or rather what should hagler have done against leonard to get the desired range or rather angle?
If it's a matched pair, (Othodox/Orthodox, or Southpaw/Southpaw) you will certainly run into fighters that have a solid understanding of dealing with aggression by moving "out and to the right" or, simply out and stepping away from your power hand.

That is a situation where you are going to have to apply pressure, meaning, move in behind a busy jab to close the distance and create some angles, or shoot your jab out and pop back into position by staying on your back foot. Alternatively, you can attempt to counter-punch with them, which is not recommended, as you don't want to let the boxer always initiate exchanges, but if you have the speed/reflexes and knowledge to punch with them, it is certainly possible.

In my gym we generally advise the boxer in your position to initiate with the jab while cutting off the ring laterally. Vary your jab volume, levels, (high and low) and feint to draw out their jabs and crosses. Your going to have to stay busy and either box smart, or apply intelligent pressure. Your jab will do a lot of the work for you.

Keep in mind that the low jab generally has to be respected if used intelligently, both by the pressure fighter, and the boxer stylist alike. Although there are well understood methods for dealing with the jab to the body, you can force the boxer stylist to set down a bit more with those body jabs, and work your hooks and lateral movement.

Look at Maidana's recent fights. He does a great job of keep busy with a surprisingly intelligent, versatile jab that pays off regularly for him. Stay on that back foot when you are jabbing as well, don't fall into the trap of applying pressure and sitting on your front foot. Luis' fighters are a good example of this, and also, again, look at Maidana, that jab he is using keeps him in position and allows him to apply pressure, cut off the ring, and transition into his left hook effectively, which will help to coral the boxer back onto your line of attack.

I also recommend that you practice hooking off the jab to keep that trailing hand busy. The jab is already doing a great job of this for you, which is a wonderful secondary side effect of keeping it in his face. A snappy, well executed jab that keeps you in position has to be respected. As they are blocking it, slipping it, ducking it, gather information about their tendencies and build your subsequent shots off that. If they slip outside the jab, double it up high and tight an step in laterally to cut the distance a bit and cut the ring off. If they block it, hook off it and put some shots together, or go low with the jab. (Next time feint the low follow up and hook high) Etc.

Hope this helps...

-Jorge!

yes it helps a lot thanks

 

[Sinister]

The short answer is when a guy pivots, pivot with him.

 

[a guy]

In my gym, we generally teach a balanced "weight evenly distributed between the legs" approach. We pivot on the lead foot, but we avoid leaning forward throughout the pivot. We stay on our toes/balls of our feet throughout to keep our base, but I DO see a lot of students, myself included, occasionally lean forward too much.

You always have the option to step out slightly toward the lead foot then pivot. This widens you base and helps to avoid placing too much weight over your front foot, but keep in mind, widening your base inhibits footwork.

another thing to keep in mind is that the speed of your pivot is faster in a narrower stance, so fighters like the fellows Luis trains have naturally faster pivots because of the narrower base, which is good, but it is harder to learn. It's arguably better to learn this more physically demanding/ more complicated style of pivot as it makes you focus on your positioning early in your education which can only be good.

For the fighters who naturally fight in a wider stance, for whatever reason, slower pivoting motions are expected, but you CAN narrow your stance during the pivot and set into a modified narrower post-pivot stance, THEN set into your normal wider stance. I generally train fighters that fight lower (in wider stances) to consider this method of pivoting, as it helps with cutting off the ring/creating angles Etc. It is harder of course, but I don't agree with the idea that a fighter absolutely needs to maintain a specific stance in regards to width ALL the time, as a wide stance in certain scenarios is simply not beneficial for the in-boxer.

If this is complicated, I can make a video of it... It might sound more complex than it actually is.

A video would be fantastic, even though I think you did a good job explaining.

 

[Mr Mojo Lane]

Spar against more runners.

 

[a guy]

I think there's really good information in this thread. The way I pivot, I adjust the foot I want to move towards first. So if I'm gonna pivot left (clockwise) I turn my left foot in before swinging my right foot around and landing with my weight on that foot. Going right, I turn my right foot first. This prevents getting your feet crossed. If you go left and turn the left foot last, then at the end of the pivot your feet will be crossed whereas if you go right and turn your left foot first then you cross them at the beginning of the motion.

It helps to check your stance and maybe throw a punch or slip after you pivot. A lot of people get in a weird position after a pivot, but you should be balanced and ready to do anything in the same stance is before the pivot. Common mistakes are crossing the feet as mentioned above, sticking the back foot behind in the bucket, not moving the rear foot the correct distance so the feet get out of position, straightening the legs, etc.

I think pivoting is one of those skills that almost no one in MMA uses, and fewer use well.

 

[a guy]

how do you deal with a guy that constantly steps backward circles and turn, for example a guy like hopkins or rather what should hagler have done against leonard to get the desired range or rather angle?

Try pivoting on the back foot and using diagonal movement to cut the guy off.