Opinion Black pilots in the US

[ChosenOne]

I never said there was formal discrimination after the 60s though, if you'd been paying attention the reason we still have fewer black pilots is because they lack connections into the industry as a result of having been formally discriminated against until the 60s.
....

The above is so key in all sectors and yet ignored by so many.

Up until the mid 1980's many companies had policies in place (some written and others only spoken) to prevent Women and PoC of rising into any management ranks.

That meant, that largely white euro males got jobs they did not deserve as they did not have to face competition.

The ranks of late 20 and 30 year olds who moved into Management in that era, who did not have the proven skills, as they never proved it against full competition, are, to a large degree still in upper management today.

People here cry because they think a PoC or a woman gets an easier path to success while IGNORING that generations of white men never earned their jobs, if you only say it is earned if you face full competition without interference.

And there simply is no denying, that once you fill the ranks of upper management with almost one sole group (white Euro males) that the next generation of hires competing and coming in will see young Euro white males picked more often than a PoC from the foreign part of the world, even when qualifications are equal.

that is simply human nature as a job interview is not just a resume but also a 'feel'. If you see yourself, your son, your neighbours son, in the interviewee, you are more likely to connect and want to give that kid a break.

That is why companies need awareness programs to force their managers to look at who they hire and to see if they are using an unconscious bias.

 

[ChosenOne]

How are we supposed to address the 'inequalities' of prior generations?

Do you hold sons responsible for the sins of their fathers? Do you blame modern German citizens for the acts of Nazis?

I'm for treating everyone equally without any consideration for their race or sex, and that includes special privileges and opportunities based on race or sex.


The thing about the 1960s is, obviously, they were 60 years ago.

Pointing to it as if they were recent is pointless.

Yes, there was discrimination 60 years ago, so what's the excuse for minorities for the last 60 years? We have black billionaires and even a black president.




Actually, it is.
Otherwise you believe people of certain races need 'hand holding.'
I have the same standards of anyone regardless of race, or else its the soft bigotry of low expectations.

And its particularly ironic that white people see minorities in a less-than-successful situation and view that they need the help of white people to 'save' them.

MalcomX has a part of a speech about 'White Saviors' being the most racist white people.

You should like this because its from the 1960s.

lol at we have "black billionaires" and "black POTUS".

Sorry but you have swallowed the most empty talking points of all time.

During the peak of slavery there were some 'free men PoC' who managed success. They owned business and did better than many whites. Does that mean there was no longer discrimination on the masses during slavery?

The way you address the inequalities of past generations is by looking at what the impact TODAY is and addressing it.

So...

- if Slave owners were paid reparations for the loss of slaves beginning their accumulation of generation wealth... while the actual Slaves were denied reparations...
- if PoC faced Red lining and other blatant and targeted gov't actions in to RECENT times denying them generational wealth and deliberately shifting it to whites...

And it is THAT lack of generation wealth that is the leading impact on why the kids of PoC have much poorer schools, and worse access to health care, then you use TAXES TODAY to target those things and try and bring them up to near parity.

What you DO NOT do is say Brett Kavanaugh had access to school just like the inner city kid did so it is all good now.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

I never said there was formal discrimination after the 60s though,

I never said you did say that.
So what informal discrimination has there been since the 60s?

if you'd been paying attention the reason we still have fewer black pilots is because they lack connections into the industry as a result of having been formally discriminated against until the 60s.

What connections did white pilots have that have been denied to minority pilots?

Has there been outreach by airlines to white people to become pilots?

Whites aren't being excluded though, they can still join the academies and become pilots.

Have minorities been historically excluded from joining academies and becoming pilots for the last 60 years?

What law do you think these Airlines have violated with their academies? Some of these have been running since 2018, is your position that these academies are illegal?

'Illegal' is a strong word. Lets just say the judgement by the courts in 'Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard' may be applied more broadly in the future.

​

Exactly,

You highlight a part of my post that I'm agreeing with you as if that's an admittion and say 'exactly?'

they can still join and represent the majority of pilots.

Oh I'm sure they're so thankful for your blessing from on high.

Is your claim here that the existence of these academies represents some obstacle to white men entering the industry?

My claim, which leftists use to agree with me because it was the common opinion of everyone from the 70s to the 2000s - 'Racial Discrimination is wrong.'

Now it is 'Racial Discrimination in favor of minorities is right.'

Its basically endorcing racism.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

lol at we have "black billionaires" and "black POTUS".

Sorry but you have swallowed the most empty talking points of all time.

No, they're examples of progress and opportunity.

During the peak of slavery there were some 'free men PoC' who managed success. They owned business and did better than many whites. Does that mean there was no longer discrimination on the masses during slavery?

The way you address the inequalities of past generations is by looking at what the impact TODAY is and addressing it.

So...

- if Slave owners were paid reparations for the loss of slaves beginning their accumulation of generation wealth... while the actual Slaves were denied reparations...
- if PoC faced Red lining and other blatant and targeted gov't actions in to RECENT times denying them generational wealth and deliberately shifting it to whites...

And it is THAT lack of generation wealth that is the leading impact on why the kids of PoC have much poorer schools, and worse access to health care, then you use TAXES TODAY to target those things and try and bring them up to near parity.

What you DO NOT do is say Brett Kavanaugh had access to school just like the inner city kid did so it is all good now.

Got any more of those reparations talking points?

 

[ChosenOne]

Example 1 - Kid who grows up rich due to generational wealth. Goes to all the best schools. Has tutors and small class sizes all the way thru. Goes to prep school and puts a 100% focus on grades only trying to get the highest grades possible. Many find the kid introverted and awkward. He ends up applying to Harvard with a 93% GPA.

Example 2 - Kid is similarly privileged to kid 1 but is into sports and other activities. He ends up being Captain of the football team, a star athlete in many sports, and class valedictorian . He ends up applying to Harvard with a 92% GPA.

Example 3 - Inner city kid. Broken home. The schools he went to were a disaster and he saw siblings and others die or drawn into gang life. He works a job all the way thru and ends up applying to Harvard with a 91% GPA.


Most people have NO ISSUE with Harvard recognizing that Example 2 should get in over Example 1, as they believe Harvard can and should recognize and value the other things that person is doing that impact their grades. They apply a type of 'grade norming' to the lower grade in the belief those others factors weighed his grade down.

But many people scream and cry UNFAIR, if you try and say kid 3 from the inner city should get in over Kid 1 with the higher grades, as they refuse to consider the type of 'grade norming' that would impact a kid, like Brett Kavanaugh, if he was forced to go the inner city path of kid 3.

Take it a step further and consider Universities are NOT just grade mills, seeking to only find kids with the best grades and they are also qualifying kids for society and jobs. Is the awkward 93% kid more valued in the job market than the 92% kids who is well rounded, or the 91% kid who shows he is battle tested in over coming adversity?

Fact is the biggest help in society by government and institutions has always gone to white males. Without question. Scholastically and in terms of helping them build generational wealth. And as they sit on that 'achievement' now and pass it on to their kids the one thing many are fighting is any and all programs to level the playing field so their kids, will have to do what they did not, and that is compete fairly against others.

It is NOT about minorities getting privilege. It is about white people protecting the privilege and advantage they have for the next generations.

And the US Supreme Court is the most active in trying to ensure that now. They know due to demographics, they either lock in privaledge now or the chance will be lost.

 

[ChosenOne]

No, they're examples of progress and opportunity.

Got any more of those reparations talking points?

Yes as i said. i could give you examples of freed black slaves (freemen) who achieved successes beyond many whites in their area. Owned business, etc.

There was progress and opportunity.

Thus slavery was not holding back PoC because you can cherry pick examples.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

Yes as i said. i could give you examples of freed black slaves (freemen) who achieved successes beyond many whites in their area. Owned business, etc.

And that is fucking awesome.

And he didn't need any white people holding his hand to achieve such success, correct?

There was progress and opportunity.

Thus slavery was not holding back PoC because you can cherry pick examples.

They're not 'cherry pick' examples because they've had the same opportunities as anyone within our system.

They've taken advantage if those opportunities.

So, the question is why haven't more minorities achieved success with the same opportunities everyone else has had?

 

[ChosenOne]

And that is fucking awesome.

And he didn't need any white people holding his hand to achieve such success, correct?



They're not 'cherry pick' examples because they've had the same opportunities as anyone within our system.

They've taken advantage if those opportunities.

So, the question is why haven't more minorities achieved success with the same opportunities everyone else has had?

Correct.

Does not change the FACT that the vast amount of people subjected to slaverly will fail and live miserable lives.

People like you that revel in 'but we can point to one person who succeeded so therefore no one needs help' are pathetic.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Whats up with that , why the majority of pilots are white ?

When you hear “this is your captain speaking” on an airline flight in the United States, more than 90% of the time, the speaker is a white male. Just 3.4% of U.S. airline pilots are Black, 2.2% are of Asian descent, and a paltry 0.5% are Hispanic or Latino. Women make up just 4.6%.

White men have ruled the sky as airline pilots, but that’s finally changing

Airlines like United, American, Delta and Southwest are taking steps to bring more racial and gender diversity into the pilot ranks.

chicago.suntimes.com

Most likely because it's expensive to own a plane. 3 of the 4 pilots that I know started taking lessons in their teens.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

Correct.

I knew the answer to the question before I asked it.

An example of post-slavery black history that there should be taught more and studied more broadly and commended.

And an example of how black people don't need a helping hand from whites to make up for past transgressions, and they can succeed on their own merits.

Does not change the FACT that the vast amount of people subjected to slaverly will fail and live miserable lives.

Good thing we don't have anyone in America today that have been subjected to slavery.

People like you that revel in 'but we can point to one person who succeeded so therefore no one needs help' are pathetic.

One person?
Bro, that's one of thousands of examples of success stories over the past century and a half of black people becoming successful.

Black entrepeneurs.
Black surgeons.
Black professors.
Black businessmen.
Black lawyers.
Black politicians.
Black entertainers.

Absolutely every opportunity white people have to become successful are all now available to PoC.

Unfortunately there's pathetic people, like you that remind, Pocs that 'we were once discriminated against' as an excuse for your own laziness and failure. ALL of that shit you brought up is in the far past and the vast majority of you didn't live through it, but would like a paycheck from the government as if you had.

Fucking pathetic.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

@ChosenOne

 

[Islam Imamate]

I never said you did say that.
So what informal discrimination has there been since the 60s?


What connections did white pilots have that have been denied to minority pilots?

Has there been outreach by airlines to white people to become pilots?


Have minorities been historically excluded from joining academies and becoming pilots for the last 60 years?

A big reason why we don't have more minority pilots is that we have arbitrarily high standards for achieving a pilot's license. You need 1500hrs to get licensed and the dumb part is you don't even have to fly anything comparable to a commercial aircraft, you can grind your hours out on small engine planes and even hot air balloons. This makes it unnecessarily time consuming and expensive to become a pilot but the pilot's unions revolts anytime there's talk of changing it back to the old 250 standard which is more typical relative to other countries. That's because they benefit as fewer people becoming pilots means they make more. If we changed it back to 250hrs you'd probably see more women and minorities even without DEI initiatives because it reduces the barrier to entry. I'm not as bothered by the DEI initiatives as you are but they probably won't work if you don't reform the 1500hr rule and in fact reforming that rule would probably do a lot more to diversify the industry.

 

[SandisLL]

A big reason why we don't have more minority pilots is that we have arbitrarily high standards for achieving a pilot's license. You need 1500hrs to get licensed and the dumb part is you don't even have to fly anything comparable to a commercial aircraft, you can grind your hours out on small engine planes and even hot air balloons. This makes it unnecessarily time consuming and expensive to become a pilot but the pilot's unions revolts anytime there's talk of changing it back to the old 250 standard which is more typical relative to other countries. That's because they benefit as fewer people becoming pilots means they make more. If we changed it back to 250hrs you'd probably see more women and minorities even without DEI initiatives because it reduces the barrier to entry. I'm not as bothered by the DEI initiatives as you are but they probably won't work if you don't reform the 1500hr rule and in fact reforming that rule would probably do a lot more to diversify the industry.

Maybe U.S might copy paste standards from rules applied in Germany or Baltic countries. They does have these awailable for free in text format in English too...

We had learned and paid with blood for this.

For example one case in 1990 ies was when pilot with commercial and military experience with single engine airplanes ...had used to be a pilot for transport airplane with 2 engines...and obviously he most likely had miscalculated altitude he needs to perform maneur and reaction difference between single engine airplane and 2 engine airplane reaction ....while he even had cert for this model airplane. He wasn't able to " collect " airplane due to not sufficient altitude reserve. Guys had died cos this mistake...military pros..." payload 200 ".

 

[GearSolidMetal]

A big reason why we don't have more minority pilots is that we have arbitrarily high standards for achieving a pilot's license. You need 1500hrs to get licensed and the dumb part is you don't even have to fly anything comparable to a commercial aircraft, you can grind your hours out on small engine planes and even hot air balloons.

... FOR EVERYONE.

And you know what the reason why for the 'arbritarily high standards?' Is because once upon a time commercial airplane crashes with hundreds of deaths weren't rare. Thus the reason for the 'arbritarily high standards' is that everyone buying a plane ticket have absolutely no question the plane won't smash into the ground at 600MPH.

And your reaction to flight schools & airlines having high standards for pilots is "Thats keeping minorities from becoming pilots."

Bro, this says so much about minorities that you don't intend to say.

I'm not as bothered by the DEI initiatives as you are but they probably won't work if you don't reform the 1500hr rule and in fact reforming that rule would probably do a lot more to diversify the industry.

So white people are willing to fly 1500 hours to become pilots, but minorities aren't.



I am trying hard to keep this respectful, but you're parroting the racist stereoypes that you think white people used to say about minorities.

 

[Islam Imamate]

... FOR EVERYONE.

And you know what the reason why for the 'arbritarily high standards?' Is because once upon a time commercial airplane crashes with hundreds of deaths weren't rare. Thus the reason for the 'arbritarily high standards' is that everyone buying a plane ticket have absolutely no question the plane won't smash into the ground at 600MPH.

And your reaction to flight schools & airlines having high standards for pilots is "Thats keeping minorities from becoming pilots."

Bro, this says so much about minorities that you don't intend to say.

Canada's standard is 250hrs and they don't have significantly different crash rates compared to the US. Even if you set to 250 if the industry believed a higher threshold is necessary they could impose that as a job requirement. The US has a shortage of pilots and its in part because of the arbitrary standard that doesn't even prepare pilots for the job.

So white people are willing to fly 1500 hours to become pilots, but minorities aren't.



I am trying hard to keep this respectful, but you're parroting the racist stereoypes that you think white people used to say about minorities.

Disproportionately yes because its expensive and comes with a huge opportunity cost. Of course some minorities do get hired but because of the pilot's unions trying to engineer a shortage many people are shut out who otherwise might've taken a crack at it.

 

[Dalarna3]

Always give jobs that involve life or death to the most competent. Always.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

Canada's standard is 250hrs and they don't have significantly different crash rates compared to the US.

They also have significantly fewer pilots than compared to the US.

Even if you set to 250 if the industry believed a higher threshold is necessary they could impose that as a job requirement.

Perhaps 1400 hours is too many and 250 hours is too few.

Regardless, bringing it up in a debate about bringing in more minorites as airline pilots isn't a strong point.

The US has a shortage of pilots and its in part because of the arbitrary standard that doesn't even prepare pilots for the job.

Islam, you're smarter than this.

You just argued 1400 flight hours is too much in comparison to the rest of the world's standard being 250 hours, and now you're saying 1400 hours 'doesn't even prepare pilots for the job.'

Disproportionately yes because its expensive and comes with a huge opportunity cost. Of course some minorities do get hired but because of the pilot's unions trying to engineer a shortage many people are shut out who otherwise might've taken a crack at it.

Take it up with the unions then.
But I hear unions typically donate to Democrat politicians, so good luck with getting any laws passed that aren't in the union's favor.

 

[Your Account]

Isnt the main they try to say in tge article that if they would have a black and a white candidate ,equaily quilified , they will choose the black candidate due to DEI?

 

[William Huggins]

Why are the majority of rappers black?

Do you think that's why there isn't more Black pilots? They'd start rapping when given a mic? I can see that being a problem on a flight........

 

[William Huggins]

Example 1 - Kid who grows up rich due to generational wealth. Goes to all the best schools. Has tutors and small class sizes all the way thru. Goes to prep school and puts a 100% focus on grades only trying to get the highest grades possible. Many find the kid introverted and awkward. He ends up applying to Harvard with a 93% GPA.

Example 2 - Kid is similarly privileged to kid 1 but is into sports and other activities. He ends up being Captain of the football team, a star athlete in many sports, and class valedictorian . He ends up applying to Harvard with a 92% GPA.

Example 3 - Inner city kid. Broken home. The schools he went to were a disaster and he saw siblings and others die or drawn into gang life. He works a job all the way thru and ends up applying to Harvard with a 91% GPA.


Most people have NO ISSUE with Harvard recognizing that Example 2 should get in over Example 1, as they believe Harvard can and should recognize and value the other things that person is doing that impact their grades. They apply a type of 'grade norming' to the lower grade in the belief those others factors weighed his grade down.

But many people scream and cry UNFAIR, if you try and say kid 3 from the inner city should get in over Kid 1 with the higher grades, as they refuse to consider the type of 'grade norming' that would impact a kid, like Brett Kavanaugh, if he was forced to go the inner city path of kid 3.

Take it a step further and consider Universities are NOT just grade mills, seeking to only find kids with the best grades and they are also qualifying kids for society and jobs. Is the awkward 93% kid more valued in the job market than the 92% kids who is well rounded, or the 91% kid who shows he is battle tested in over coming adversity?

Fact is the biggest help in society by government and institutions has always gone to white males. Without question. Scholastically and in terms of helping them build generational wealth. And as they sit on that 'achievement' now and pass it on to their kids the one thing many are fighting is any and all programs to level the playing field so their kids, will have to do what they did not, and that is compete fairly against others.

It is NOT about minorities getting privilege. It is about white people protecting the privilege and advantage they have for the next generations.

And the US Supreme Court is the most active in trying to ensure that now. They know due to demographics, they either lock in privaledge now or the chance will be lost.

Why leave it there, shouldn't there be global reparations, country by country, culture by culture......... Let's level the playing field and start again, right?

Let's pick a date, shall we say 1000 years ago?