BJJ vs Wrestling (Thoughts)

DaRuckus337 said:
My wrestling has always been a huge asset on the ground since I took up bjj. I know how to move while staying tight and heavy, know how to place my weight, know how to control my hips, how to control my opponent's hips, how to maintain power form awkward and off-balanced positions, and generally how to grapple. It's why I was able ti compete with purple belts within a year - not because my bjj was better but because my extensive 'other' grappling background allowed me to effectively close a gap in specific bjj skill. It's why I will always be confident in my ability to dictate the position (top or bottom) in a grappling match against almost any bjj player - even against guys with 20, 30, or 50 pounds on me. Only a couch jockey who has never grappled against a wrestler would think it isn't a big asset when taking up submission grappling and mma. In short, you're completely wrong.
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LOL....Couch Jockey
 
maybe i'm crazy, but i think randy called that fight as well.

not sure.

also, i believe jon is closer to 3-4 inches taller since he has an inch on me, and i have at least 2 on gsp.

curiously, who is the up and coming dominant wrestler in MMA?
 
There is much more to wrestling than I think you might understand. A throw without a gi on is as much a freestyle wrestling move as a judo move. And there is more to wrestling than "shooting"; some wrestlers--high level wrestlers--make a habit of not shooting in for the legs, Steve Mocco being a recent example.

Freestyle wrestling and folkstyle wrestling are about taking your opponent to the mat and controlling him...in a MYRIAD of ways.
 
meh. Never mind I can't recall what I wanted to say anymore.
 
The thing that everyone seems to forget and the real reason good wrestlers like the ones posting here do well in comp, well if a guy wrestleed for say 6-8 years and be is a blue belt in BJJ comp, of COURSE he is going to dominate other blue belts, he has more mat time and is a better overall grappler simply put.

The other thing is, since when does BJJ not practice top control and domination and since when do wrestlers learn and work guard passes outside of BJJ/sub grappling training? Two welll conditioned athletes and the BJJ guy does tend to come out on top. usually when a wrestler dominates is a case of him simply being a much better athlete period as well as having wrestled and trained Sub grappling.

Simply put wrestling is part of BJJ, and BJJ isnt simply guard flopping and was never meant to be. Alot of people lose sight of that. Saying you dominate guys who have 2-3 yrs BJJ does not mean a thing to me if you have been training a year and have a good (6-10 years) wrestling background. A better guage is how well do you do against the brown and Black belt guys at that point in your training.

I do think Wrestlers do well in BJJ from their experience, wrestling has alot of great things that you have to be good at to succeed. Conditioning, strength, kinestetic awareness, balance, the background of learning techniques through drill, and plenty of other things. I just think some people forget a wrestler has ALOT more time training on the mat than the other BJJ people who come from no similar combat sports backgrounds. So it isnt so much wrestling is great or BJJ if great, the fact is the wrestlers have alot more actual experience than the folks they face who are of the same Sub grappling/BJJ experience level.
 
MF Doomer said:
I'm rewatching Vera/Werdum and Rogan just made this comment:

"Vera is an excellent wrester. Werdum is a great jiu jitsui man, but Vera has the advantage with wrestling, I believe..."

I have long believed that "wrestling" in its pure sense, is overrated, and that because wrestlers are so bad on their backs, other than shooting, and getting take downs, wrestling doesn't seem to matter that much in terms of your ability to control a man. More often I feel that overall size, and JJ, really say a lot more.

GSP is consistently credited with being the best "wrestler" because he controlled Koscheck, and others on the ground. Guys who are clearly better pure wrestlers. GSP actually seems to dominate with this size, and controlling guys who are on their backs, something a wrestler is not comfortable with. When GSP threw Hughes, he did it with a judo throw, not a wrestling shoot. Not to say GSP cannot shoot, because he can, but it's not his "wrestling", per se, that makes him better on the ground. It's his practice of JJ control.

I felt that on the ground, due to his size and JJ, Werdum would control Vera, and he did. I was not surprised when Rampage controlled Henderson on the ground because of his size, and practice on the ground, not his wrestling. Was not surprised when Silva controlled Henderson on the ground because of his size, and JJ, not wrestling.

This is not to say wrestlers cannot learn to dominate in MMA, but it seems they benefit with regard to weight cutting, shooting, and power. Not being on the ground itself. Right now there is no champion in the UFC who is a wrestler, and Urijah is the only one in Zuffa. Couture is obviously amazing, and somewhat of the exception since he is never dominated on the ground, but again, not saying wrestlers cannot be great, it's just not something I feel should be noted as a real advantage, per se.

I could be crazy to think this way, but I always feel the bigger man who practices ground, assuming the guy isn't physically awkward, will more often control the ground, regardless of wrestling skills.

Thoughts?
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GSP is actually in fact a great pure wrestler. He was considering going to the olympics for wrestling just to shows how skilled his wrestling actually is. He took hughes down most often with the knee block take down or knee pick. He took kos down with a double and single. I think wrestling is a great base because it teaches you how to control your opponent. A good fighter should try to excel in both wrestling and bjj not just focus on one aspect of the fight game.
 
Kforcer said:
There is much more to wrestling than I think you might understand. A throw without a gi on is as much a freestyle wrestling move as a judo move. And there is more to wrestling than "shooting"; some wrestlers--high level wrestlers--make a habit of not shooting in for the legs, Steve Mocco being a recent example.

Freestyle wrestling and folkstyle wrestling are about taking your opponent to the mat and controlling him...in a MYRIAD of ways.
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Judo and wrestling have been trading techniques seriously for the last 40 years (the Soviets especially went into it in a very big way). As far as I can tell, having done a fair amount of both judo and wrestling, if a throw or take down is done wearing a gi its judo, if its done no-gi its wrestling :cool:
 
Here is my tough about that.

From MY experience, judo and wrestler guy, are heavier on you on the ground. They use their weight more than a bjj guys.

On pure grappling, i think bjj have the edge. In mma i think wrestler have the edge 'cause they establish a good top position and pound you.

If the legalise knee on the ground, i think that wrestler will take more advantage from it than bjj guys, 'cause you cant knee when you're on your back...

I didnt roll with 100 wrestlers or bjj guys, but from my experience, i found that wrestler are heavier on you.
 
It's so enlightening when people who have no experience in something try to make arguments. The OP should watch some wrestling clips on youtube before claiming GSP's toss is judo instead of wrestling. I guess his kicks are clearly TKD instead of karate (nevermind that TKD and karate both share certain kicks).

BTW 1998 called and they want you back on the bus. There's no such thing as pure anything in MMA anymore. Just about every fighter cross trains to some degree and if wrestling was so ineffective then why do so many successful BJJ fighters cross train in it? Why in hell would Chute Boxe bring in Alejo Morales who was the Cuban wrestling coach for 17 years? Why would BTT bring in Darrel Gholar, one of wrestling all time greats, to train with them?
 
I dont know if I can add much to this thread but I will say the OP is way off base IMO on his opinion.

wrestling/BJJ and Judo are all vital to success in MMA. To think otherwise is simply foolish.

Nowadays you see wrestlers getting taken down by lesser pure wrestlers in MMA but you also will see examples of wrestlers dominating guys on the ground with far more pure ground fighting experience.

And while some have said a wrestler walking into your BJj class may have 3 or 4 or more years of mat time than you how much of that mat time was literally on the ground?

Also if any of you recall correctly BJJ was developed and tested SPECIFICALLY against styles like Catch and Judo ..iirc some of the gracies themselves were considered very good pure wrestlers as well...
 
I was simply going to point out that GSP throw on Hughes was a common wrestling technique, and that GSP almost certainly learned it on the wrestling mat, but it's already been said.
 
MF Doomer said:
i agree with that.

but, my point is, regardless of how good a guys wrestling background seems to be, the bigger fighter, especially a JJ guy, seems to control the fight more often.

I never think that because a guy is a great wrestler, other than avoiding take downs, and just holding someone down, he's going to be very effective.

Maybe I'm crazy, I don't know.
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From personal experience, a guy who is a solid wrestler with average submissions will always be harder to submit that a pure bjj guy with a bit better submissions. Wrestling makes you faster on the ground, better base, more explosive. To say that wrestling is useless on the ground isn't completely true. Wrestling technique is trumped by bjj on the ground but wrestling attributes will always help in any situation. Basically, the skills you learn in wrestling, compounded with bjj, will almost always beat someone with just bjj.
And as far as wrestlers being beaten by bigger guys, no shit. When two guys are almost equal in skill the bigger guy wins.
 
And while some have said a wrestler walking into your BJj class may have 3 or 4 or more years of mat time than you how much of that mat time was literally on the ground?
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ALOT, people who think wrestling is all takedowns and pins are missing alot, good programs focus alot on mat wrestling and transitions.
 
MF Doomer said:
the poster does not think it's about size or strength only, and knows full well that george is a good wrestler.

all the people the other poster mentioned USED TO dominate the UFC, other than GSP, who is more martial artist than pure wrestler. GSP is a superior athlete, as I mentioned in another response.

Urijah is a great wrestler as well, and dominates with his athletic ability.

Not going point for point on Dan and Silva, or Dan and Rampage. But, if you watch the fight, you'll hear commentary about how Rampage was controlling Dan. I think it may have been Randy.

Anyway, when GSP dominates a bigger wrestler with his wrestling, like Fitch, I'll reconsider some assumptions.

But I'm tired of hearing "this guy's wrestling is phenomenal" and then seeing a guy getting worked by someone who isn't known to be a wrestler.

I guess I'm more picking my spots, since Evans can put you to sleep with his wrestling seemingly at will.

In the end, especially regarding Vera/Werdum, because a guy is the better wrestler, I in know way think that's going to have any bearing on the fight, quite often.

Of course, THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS, but I find wrestling to be the skill most easily learned with regard to MMA, and compared to the rest, and probably the least relevant.

DON"T TAKE OFFENSE. I've worked out with wrestlers who train JJ. Then again, we're all pretty much D level within all regards.
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What is to say Vera is a good wrestler other than Joe Rogan? Werdum has years of no-gi experience and i'd be willing to bet his wrestling game is better than Vera's. GSP's style is far from a martial arts style. He is very wrestling based, he does'nt have the pedigree of Josh but he is the better MMA wrestler. Being out wrestled by GSP in a MMA doesn't say much about whether wrestling is effective.
 
What is to say Vera is a good wrestler other than Joe Rogan?
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Well I am pretty sure average wrestlers dont get invited to the olympic training center to train for a chance to make the olympic team (greco). But I could be wrong.
 
stlnl2 said:
Well I am pretty sure average wrestlers dont get invited to the olympic training center to train for a chance to make the olympic team (greco). But I could be wrong.
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Okay, to say Vera isn't a good wrestler was wrong, he is but, what's to say he has better MMA wrestling than Werdum. The TS said he was tired of seeing great wrestlers being out-grappled by lesser wrestlers and i'm saying, who's to say Werdum is a lesser MMA wrestler than Vera.
 
Wrestling is awesome. It's so useful in BJJ, it's ridiculous. I don't know how you can reach a high level without having pretty good wrestling skills.

That said, a lot of wrestlers seem to have the damndest time developing a decent guard game.
 
Wrestling has a ton of throws, btw...its not just singles and doubles.
 
MF Doomer said:
I'm rewatching Vera/Werdum and Rogan just made this comment:

"Vera is an excellent wrester. Werdum is a great jiu jitsui man, but Vera has the advantage with wrestling, I believe..."

I have long believed that "wrestling" in its pure sense, is overrated, and that because wrestlers are so bad on their backs, other than shooting, and getting take downs, wrestling doesn't seem to matter that much in terms of your ability to control a man. More often I feel that overall size, and JJ, really say a lot more.

GSP is consistently credited with being the best "wrestler" because he controlled Koscheck, and others on the ground. Guys who are clearly better pure wrestlers. GSP actually seems to dominate with this size, and controlling guys who are on their backs, something a wrestler is not comfortable with. When GSP threw Hughes, he did it with a judo throw, not a wrestling shoot. Not to say GSP cannot shoot, because he can, but it's not his "wrestling", per se, that makes him better on the ground. It's his practice of JJ control.

I felt that on the ground, due to his size and JJ, Werdum would control Vera, and he did. I was not surprised when Rampage controlled Henderson on the ground because of his size, and practice on the ground, not his wrestling. Was not surprised when Silva controlled Henderson on the ground because of his size, and JJ, not wrestling.

This is not to say wrestlers cannot learn to dominate in MMA, but it seems they benefit with regard to weight cutting, shooting, and power. Not being on the ground itself. Right now there is no champion in the UFC who is a wrestler, and Urijah is the only one in Zuffa. Couture is obviously amazing, and somewhat of the exception since he is never dominated on the ground, but again, not saying wrestlers cannot be great, it's just not something I feel should be noted as a real advantage, per se.

I could be crazy to think this way, but I always feel the bigger man who practices ground, assuming the guy isn't physically awkward, will more often control the ground, regardless of wrestling skills.

Thoughts?
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your first sentence on your thoughts about wrestling made me to believe. GTFO! you know nothing of wrestling or bjj why make this thread.
 
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