BJJ Judo throws


Orange Belt
Jan 26, 2005
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I have just started BJJ, and have read a lot on the history of BJJ, and I have a question. Count Koma (Maeda) was a judo master who taught Carlos how to fight. Where are all the Judo throws, that he must have taught Carlos? One thing you hear a lot is BJJ is weak on throws, or even takedowns. Did Maeda teach throws to Carlos, and if so, where did they go? I expect to get flamed and told use the search function, but this is something I wondered for a while now. :redface:
Koma realized the importance of groundwork during his "challenge match" days. Also, BJJ IS weaker in throws in GENERAL compared to judo. WHy? You think about the ammount of time a good takedown bjj school spends on takedowns... I would say 25~30% TOPS. While Judo is prob the opposite.
some of the throws in BJJ are just like Judo. But its like Blanko said, BJJ spends way more time on the ground while Judo spends more time on there feet. Hence, in general, Judo has better takedowns. Buts thats the reason for crosstraing :D
this thred is just a couple steps away from the traditional bjj vs. judo thread.

the reality is whatever maeda taught carlos was not that close to what we see in judo or jiu jitsu today.
maeda. as these arts have been refiend they have been refined with different long term goals and they have grown into their own things.
In judo a clean throw ends the match. In BJJ, it's just the first step in getting to groundwork. Thats the reason there is little focus on throws in BJJ. Why risk exposing your back or giving up position if you can't win with it? We have never worked throws in my BJJ school
In Japan in the past said A true Judo champion should be "Tade Yoshi, Nede Mata Tsuyo Shi." which means Tachi waza is excellent, Newaza is even better.
At Renzo's we work on throws and takedowns just about every single class.

It's possible that they may be weak in comparison to Judo's ( I wouldn't know) but they seem to work pretty well. Taking down an opponent is the first step to getting them to the ground, so they are very important.
I do TJJ and have gone to BJJ classes before as well. I am a brown belt and can usually throw even BJJ blacks around the mat standing. Ne waza or ground fighting is totally different though - I can hang with blues, but everyone else is just too good.
Well in my school over here in jersey we work on a number of throws and takedowns most either judo throws or Greco roman takedowns, BJJ is always evolving to be better SOOO yeah i think places realise they may have to incorporate some more efficient takedowns into their curriculum.
I used to do Judo For Awhile when I was Younger....And When I went to the mixed Club to train there was a Judo/Sambo guy and if it werent for him teaching me Judo Throws and takedowns along with the sambo leglocks I would have been killed quicker with other grapplers....What I like about the Judo Throws in BJJ most BJJ guys dont Expect it
scorcho said:
I do TJJ and have gone to BJJ classes before as well. I am a brown belt and can usually throw even BJJ blacks around the mat standing. Ne waza or ground fighting is totally different though - I can hang with blues, but everyone else is just too good.

What black belts do you speak of? Every one I have encountered has good standup
thats because maede taught kosen judo to the brazilians, kosen judo is an offshoot of judo which focuses almost entirely on groundwork, so its almost exactly the same thing as bjj, just without the new focuz on leg/anklelocks infiltrating from sambo, which has really only happened in the last 10 years or so.
There are a lot of judo throws that will complement any bjj player's game.
actually from what I have seen, Sambo throws fit better with bjj than judo throws. Sambo throws are more "ruggid" and IMHO transisiton better with BJJ groundwork.
blanko said:
actually from what I have seen, Sambo throws fit better with bjj than judo throws. Sambo throws are more "ruggid" and IMHO transisiton better with BJJ groundwork.

What is the difference between Sambo throws and Russian style judo throws ?
Sambo throws are more "ruggid" and IMHO transisiton better with BJJ groundwork

Spoken like someone who does not know what they are talking about
Cojofl said:
What is the difference between Sambo throws and Russian style judo throws ?

Alot of europeans especially from former soviet union countries cross train sambo..
Sambo is a Soviet Style of grappling that combines judo with various forms of wrestling.
What an informing reply....

Two world wars and relative geographic isolation permitted SOMBO to develop uninfluenced by later judo philosophy and technique revisions. Also, in the late 1930s, the Soviet Union took on a siege mentality and recoiled defensively against foreigners and their outside influences. Vasili Oshchepkov with his nidan in judo and contacts in Japan뭩 Kodokan did not survive the purges of 1937.

Eventually, the SOMBists deemed their sport sufficiently perfected to test it on the international scene. The only international style of jacket wrestling was sport judo. When SOMBO fighters emerged from their Soviet isolation onto the mats of the Essen European Judo Championships in 1962, the Old World immediately noticed the similarities between the two fighting systems. The judoka, however, saw so many differences that SOMBists were at best considered unorthodox. Nonetheless, the Soviet team took third place in the event capturing five medals. A. Kiknadze of Tbilisi won the title of Absolute Champion of Europe.

꿌t was the arrival of the Russians?which changed many of the traditional attitudes, at least outside Japan. Here were fighters who had very different training methods, and who were accustomed to picking up opponents at any opportunity. They were not worried whether the techniques had proper Japanese name (sic) or not. Their aim was to throw their opponents flat on there (sic) backs-and uranage was just as good as seoi-nage as far as they were concerned. Furthermore, they trained for this, both physically and technically.
This fresh view prised open competition judo. Suddenly, nothing seemed sacred any more. Top champions suddenly became concerned about coming in with a strong forward attack for fear of being unceremoniously dumped backwards.

Robert van de Walle, Judo Masterclass Techniques, Pick-Ups

Page 17 of Reference 14

However, it was only recently, during the 1960s, that the Russians revolutionised modern-day judo with their unorthodox techniques derived from sambo wrestling, thus opening up a whole new range of ideas for modern judoka.

Neil Adams, Judo Masterclass Techniques: Armlocks

Page 8 of Reference 1

Pick-Ups in judo refers to the group of techniques including morote-gari, sukui-nage, ura-nage, kata-garuma, etc. which are considered wrestling techniques as opposed to techniques true to the spirit of judo. Properly executed, a pick-up does, however, score the same point as a classical judo throw.
Through Oshchepkov, the Soviets were well aware of traditional judo training practices but did not always find them practical for their purposes. SOMBO training was based on traditional wrestling instruction bolstered with the latest western athletic training science and philosophy. The wrestling model was particularly useful to the Soviets since much of their military was already versed in their own ethnic styles of combat wrestling. The curriculum was based on learning to use and counter the techniques most likely to be encountered on the streets or the battlefield. It started simply and progressed in range and depth of techniques based on the individual student뭩 training needs.

Their tradition in sombo (which is similar to judo although it has a different look and feel) gave the Russians a head start over most of Europe and it still stands them in good stead today.
Neil Adams, Judo Masterclass Techniques: Grips

Page 15 of Reference 2

The distinguishing characteristic of western judo is that it does not aspire to the perfect form embodied in the Gokyo, but rather adapts it and modifies it to be more effective at throwing the opponent. The Japanese ?argue that their goal is not, in fact, the same, since the aesthetic element is of intrinsic importance to the performance of any technique and if the use of force is excessive, rather than truly rational, then the object has not been achieved in accordance with the basic philosophical tenets of judo.

Peter Seisenbacher and George Kerr, Modern Judo, Techniques of East and West

Page 50 of Reference 12

Even so, it is not necessarily a smooth transition from SOMBO to judo or judo to SOMBO.
꿌n comparing sambo with judo, I found that on the whole, judo techniques were on a higher level. But, I also discovered that the ura nage and juji gatame used in sambo were considerably more powerful and effective than those in judo. Another thing that I noted was that because the stance in sambo is wide, the samboist is vulnerable to forward-and-back combination techniques particularly to those like tai otoshi, ko-ouchi-gari, and o-uchi-gari. Thus, I was able to take advantage of the weak points of Russian judoists when I met them in contests.
Nobuyuki Sato in Best Judo

Page 243 of Reference 7

SOMBO뭩 relative disregard for the hold down did not always prepare a SOMBist to develop the skills needed to evade a judoka뭩 skillful osae-komi waza. The hold down in judo is just as effective as the arm lock in ending a bout. Judoka, in turn, experienced problems coping with SOMBO뭩 rules and unique techniques:
꿌 was competing in the All-Japan Sambo Competition. I was fighting the Soviet Champion and I must have tried something like kouchi-gari into yoko- tomoe-nage combination, but it came out like this [furiko-tomoe-nage] instead. I threw the Russian twice for what in judo terms would have been ippon, but in sambo terms was only four points for each throw-one point short of outright victory. In the event, my opponent caught hold of my leg and I lost on a leglock.
Katsuhiki Kashiwazaki, Judo Masterclass Techniques, Tomoe-nage

Page 43 of Reference 9