Economy Bitcoin/Crypto is imploding

[chardog]

So you don't think bitcoin is going to replace the dollar? You just want to take out loans?

Uh you know forex/gold? Conceptually it’s similar, asset vs asset. Yen vs Dollar, Gold vs Dollar, BTC vs Dollar

 

[Rob Battisti]

Taking out loans against bitcoin is pretty different than taking out a loan on your house lol

Not materially at all.

Riskier perhaps, but the mechanics would be exacted the same.

 

[AWilder]

Yes.

What?

Jesus rob, you brought up equities, I explained why Bitcoin isn't equity and then you said See, they aren't the same and declared you won some argument. Is your brain ok? Is this a midmick alt account?

 

[AWilder]

Thats… how all investments work. If people started selling Google stock, it goes down. If people buy Google stock… it goes up.

I really do appreciate your commitment to ignorance.

Here you start to make an argument that BTC is just like buying stocks (equity). This is your argument.

I’d never argue otherwise.

I’m trying to inform the people who think that Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme or think that because Bitcoin can be exchanged for fiat that it differs than any other kind of investment.

If you buy NVIDIA stock, you’ll exchange it for fiat. How is that different? As if it’s some kind of gotcha that the price of Bitcoin is assessed against USD.

Here you continue the argument that BTC is the same as stocks.

And that's an important distinction, Bitcoin is all based in belief and vibes. Bitcoin isn't creating anything, it's not a service, it's not tangible, it's just an imaginary thing that only holds value because other people believe it holds value. Belief is doing ALL the work.

Here i try and explain the difference between an equity and speculation gambling.

Please refute the fact that the price of an equity is determined on money flowing in and out of the asset.

Here you misuse the term money in and money out demonstrating your failure to understand the topic.

What is my position?


The idea that an equity’s value is based off of the money flowing in and out of it is something I “pulled out of my ass”?

Do you realize how dumb you sound?

Again, you misuse the term money in and money out and started to try and claim that i made some claim that BTC is like buying stock. Do you see how fucking retarded you are yet?

no, you brought up equity, demonstrating that you don't really know what you're talking about. Buying stocks, equity in a company, is very different than buying bitcoin. Is that the equivalence you are trying to make? You could just say what you want to say instead of asking questions. Bitcoin is far from holding equity because equity is tangible, a company owns things (buildings, factories, resources, etc.). Equity value is also driven by the performance of the company. Bitcoin value is driven by...convincing everyone it's worth something. Equity is more than just money coming and going, lol

Here i try to explain the error in your ways.

Again, the value of the equity is absolutely determined by money flowing in and out. This isn’t disputable.

“equity value is driven by performance of the company”.

No. Performance of the company determines investment based on perceived value which impacts actual value.

Again, you demonstrate a complete misunderstanding of terms and the difference between cash flow and supply and demand of stocks. You fundamentally misunderstand what drives stock prices and only see it from the most basic, elementary school level (3rd grade? you seem to be an expert), understanding of supply and demand.

The value is determined by the buyers and sellers, and can be by whatever metric they choose.

You're patently wrong with this.

Money in and out is cashflow. If this was how it was 'absolutely determined' in an 'indisputable' way, then startups that have negative cashflows for years would have no value at all. None of the AI we are seeing today would have any value. But they do, despite having cataclysmic outflows of cash.

Hey, someone who seems to know what they're talking about.

I’m being careful in what I write.

“Money is pouring out of X company” is very common phrasing.

to describe cash flow, not stock value.

Concession accepted.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Jesus rob, you brought up equities, I explained why Bitcoin isn't equity and then you said See, they aren't the same and declared you won some argument. Is your brain ok? Is this a midmick alt account?

I brought it up because you implied that the price of bitcoin is dependent on investors buying and selling. As if that is different than anything else, including equities.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Not materially at all.

Riskier perhaps, but the mechanics would be exacted the same.

You sure about that bud?

 

[Rob Battisti]

You sure about that bud?

Yes. This is a future investment vehicle. Perhaps the risk may lead to higher interest rates, but mechanically it is the same.

You’re position is…?

 

[Limbo Pete]

Yes. This is a future investment vehicle. Perhaps the risk may lead to higher interest rates, but mechanically it is the same.

You’re position is…?

I'm still scratching my head why you would take out a loan on $5 million bitcoin instead of just selling your bitcoin and making $5 million dollars

 

[Rob Battisti]

I'm still scratching my head why you would take out a loan on $5 million bitcoin instead of just selling your bitcoin and making $5 million dollars

Because I’d still have my bitcoin and that Bitcoin would still be appreciating in value.

It’s why people get equity lines of credit.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Because I’d still have my bitcoin and that Bitcoin would still be appreciating in value.

It’s why people get equity lines of credit.

But what happens to your loan if the price of bitcoin plummets

 

[Rob Battisti]

But what happens to your loan if the price of bitcoin plummets

I’d have to repay it. Just like any other asset backed loan.

 

[Limbo Pete]

I’d have to repay it. Just like any other asset backed loan.

....with what?
Also, and this feels like it should go without saying, you're not planning to buy more bitcoin with your loans, are you?

 

[Rob Battisti]

....with what?
Also, and this feels like it should go without saying, you're not planning to buy more bitcoin with your loans, are you?

Money? It’s not like you pay back a loan with the money from the loan.

I mean, you could. That’s Michael Saylors whole model. I wouldn’t do that.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Money? It’s not like you pay back a loan with the money from the loan.

I mean, you could. That’s Michael Saylors whole model. I wouldn’t do that.

What I mean is, how are you going to pay back your loan if, say, bitcoin plummets

 

[lowlife]

Again, the value of the equity is absolutely determined by money flowing in and out. This isn’t disputable.

“equity value is driven by performance of the company”.

No. Performance of the company determines investment based on perceived value which impacts actual value.

I thought money flow determined "price" not "value." Those are not inherently the same thing. What would happen if people stopped buying Bitcoin, and what makes people continue or would make people continue to buy it? What happens when Bitcoin is fully minted?

 

[Rob Battisti]

I thought money flow determined "price" not "value." Those are not inherently the same thing. What would happen if people stopped buying Bitcoin, and what makes people continue or would make people continue to buy it? What happens when Bitcoin is fully minted?

The value of a company is determined by its share price.

The same thing that would happen if people stopped buying anything.

 

[Rob Battisti]

What I mean is, how are you going to pay back your loan if, say, bitcoin plummets

I don’t follow. It’s not like Bitcoin is my source of income.

 

[Limbo Pete]

I don’t follow. It’s not like Bitcoin is my source of income.

What I'm saying is, if you're taking out a loan (a very large loan) against the value of bitcoin, what are you going to do if the value plummets?

 

[heloder]

The value of a company is determined by its share price.

The same thing that would happen if people stopped buying anything.

Yeah, that isn't even remotely true. Even if the share price of Microsoft went to $0.00, the company would still function in the short term, because they have revenue streams, cash on hand, tangible assets, et cetera. This is because Microsoft has actual value beyond the speculative. They have hundreds of billions of dollars worth of property (intellectual and otherwise), along with an enormous customer base that buys their products.

Bitcoin is nothing like that. Its only value is as a terrible currency which is barely utilized, and of course as an extremely volatile speculative asset. If I buy ten Bitcoins today and the price stays the same, I get nothing. If it goes to zero, I lose everything and get nothing in return. You might think, well that's normal for shareholders when a stock is wiped out, but it's only normal because most companies have creditors that need to be made whole before shareholders get paid.

With Bitcoin you wouldn't get anything because there isn't anything to actually liquidate—it's nothing but fairy dust. When you buy Bitcoin you are buying the hope that more people will buy Bitcoin. That's it. Once people stop buying it, the game is over. Once people realize that and start selling, it just becomes a matter of who can get out in time to not lose their ass. It's a simple game of trying to fuck other people over for their money while you try not to get fucked over for yours.

You need to stop pretending that this isn't the case.

 

[scoopj]

The value is determined by the buyers and sellers, and can be by whatever metric they choose.

You're patently wrong with this.

Money in and out is cashflow. If this was how it was 'absolutely determined' in an 'indisputable' way, then startups that have negative cashflows for years would have no value at all. None of the AI we are seeing today would have any value. But they do, despite having cataclysmic outflows of cash.

He’s talking about money flowing into and out of the stock lmao