Biggest robbery? GSP/Hendricks or Jones/Reyes?

[dipstickjimmy]

GSP lost that fight. it’s ok to admit it. it feels better than pretending anyway

Its ok to think Johnny won the fight. Doesn't make it a robbery.

 

[markg171]

Reyes got robbed to a greater degree than Hendricks but the two fights are strong analogues to each other. They tell a tale of a dominant champion leaving their prime, taking a dangerous fight against a younger contender and getting saved by the fact that the fight was scored according to their reputation, not the actual fight. It is telling that they both retired shortly afterward and only came back later to fight a hand-picked opponent.

Interesting.

Cause in reality both Jones and GSP won because they showed the championship drive, heart, experience, and stamina to come back and win the championship rounds like they needed to. The fights were won there because Hendricks coasted thinking he already had it and Reyes gassed and couldn't even keep up anymore even if he thought he might too.

The scores round by round may or may not have been the rightful decisions, but Jones and GSP remaining champions was the right call by the end after what we'd seen from the fighters. Not because of past reputations already earned, but because of reputations re-earned during the fight itself by coming back like they did. They fought like the champions they were. By contrast nobody came out of those fights thinking Hendricks or Reyes had champion mentalities. As was re-affirmed in subsequent fights by them against others also not named GSP and Jones. Hendricks and Reyes earned reputations those fights too, they just weren't good ones.

I'm not going to get too upset about guys who didn't come out of fights looking to be the more deserving one to be champion lose their decisions. Titles were on the line too, not just records. If it had been a non-title fight I'd maybe care a tad more, but they didn't come out looking like champions so I'm okay that they weren't made them either. I don't want a champion who isn't trying at all times, nor a champion who can't even go all fight or even gives us a Rockhold "fuck you" and swing for the fences while gassed to the tits.

It's also especially shitty to claim this for GSP. You're acting like he came back and dog walked Bisping like Jones did to Gane and Stipe. GSP came back to a dog fight and once again acting like a champion with that gritty performance and gutting out his win. I'd love to see your bet that called for a bloodied GSP dropping Bisping standing and choking him unconscious. I'm sure you totally called that. GSP came back and showed us the exact same drive that led him to his prior championships, the guy deserves all his championships.

 

[markg171]

Just go look at mmadecisions.com. Not a single media outlet scored the fight for GSP. Jones got 1/3rd of the media outlets saying he won.

You can actually simply go back to Twitter and see that it wasn't as clear cut as MMADecisions or Sherdog wants you to believe that Hendricks clearly won and was robbed.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1853750-st-pierre-vs-hendricks-results-twitter-reacts-to-the-main-event

Twitter reacts to Georges St-Pierre's controversial UFC 167 title defense

The main event of the UFC’s 20th anniversary show was overshadowed by controversy as welterweight champion Georges St-Pierre came away with a questionable split-decision victory against Johny…

mmajunkie.usatoday.com

People were giving it to GSP or saying Hendricks may have won, while yes there was a bunch of robbery comments too.

 

[snaportap21]

You can actually simply go back to Twitter and see that it wasn't as clear cut as MMADecisions or Sherdog wants you to believe that Hendricks clearly won and was robbed.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1853750-st-pierre-vs-hendricks-results-twitter-reacts-to-the-main-event

Twitter reacts to Georges St-Pierre's controversial UFC 167 title defense

The main event of the UFC’s 20th anniversary show was overshadowed by controversy as welterweight champion Georges St-Pierre came away with a questionable split-decision victory against Johny…

mmajunkie.usatoday.com

People were giving it to GSP or saying Hendricks may have won, while yes there was a bunch of robbery comments too.

Mmadecisions doesn’t want people to believe anything. They just compile media scores.

 

[snaportap21]

They are under NO means unbiased (Off the top of my head, the Brazil/Globosports were always incredibly biased, Jed Meshew specifically says he uses his own scoring system cuz he's a troll media member who wants to be a special snowflake, Wrestling Observer is a CONSTANT outlier because of how they score differently than everyone, the list goes on). All they are are a smaller sample size of ignorance so they skew percentages far greater. They also mostly don't provide round by round scores either, so they leave nothing to evaluate.

Fan votes aren't the most educated bunch on scoring either (but that isn't a great quality in the first place, considering the most educated would be judges and they fuck up all the time), but at least a fan vote provides a large sample size to best eliminate outliers on a round by round basis, so I think it's the most functional view of how the rounds would be perceived.

There's nothing to suggest Jones-Reyes was close though, other than the media scores. If you lump those into the greater perspective of how everyone saw it, their 1/3rd scores for Jones are a drop in a hugely Dom-heavy pool and starts to become more like 1/5th

Nothing to suggest Reyes and jones was close? What nonsense. Gotta love Sherdog.

 

[markg171]

GSP is my favorite fighter. And I was shocked when he won that fight. Like jaw drop shocked. I watched it again a couple years later, and I could see how he won. I really think that after watching gsp just manhandling everyone for soo long, just seeing him look human and struggle was enough of a shock for people to think he lost.

This is definitely a factor in many decisions. If you expect a blowout and instead see a competitive fight you'll be biased to them doing better than expected. But doing better than expected =/= winning. They may still be losing if you take away the hype factor you're unexpectedly experiencing.

I missed a few of the legendarily supposed controversial fights live as I was doing other things those nights and had to watch them later while knowing the outcome and that they should've gone to the other guy. Many didn't end up anywhere near as bad as they were made out to be on Twitter or Sherdog without the live hype of seeing a competitive fight you weren't expecting and became a lot more understanding of the decisions.

 

[RedDevilFan]

You listen too little. You've responded to posts of mine before the time necessary to comprehend them. It's pretty obvious from your first sentence and every response you've given that you don't care to read, so I'm not sure why I need to be the one doing all the lifting in every response.

I understand what you wrote Mohawk,

You keep saying Reyes very clearly landed more and harder the first 3 rounds. You keep saying that There's nothing to suggest Jones-Reyes was close though, other than the media scores

That is false,

Reyes landed around 4-7 more strikes in the third round and was a close round. Jones had a higher significant strike percentage in the second, which was also a close round. His last 2 rounds jones literally outpointed Reyes in every stat.

It is the reason Kelsey McCarson stated that for her, what Jones did over those last two rounds gave him a legitimate claim to winning it. It was a close fight regardless of how you scored it, and that should not be in dispute.

 

[markg171]

Mmadecisions doesn’t want people to believe anything. They just compile media scores.

Mate I literally provided you links containing media scores that aren't included in MMADecisions that paint a different story than a blanket "Everybody gave it to Hendricks this was a robbery" like the page has by only having pro Hendricks scores. It's clearly not correct.

And I know it's not correct because YOU also aren't even correct about how MMADecisions even works. The media scores are SUBMITTED to MMADecisions for inclusion on their pages. Go take a look at the scorecards and follow the links MMADecisions uses, you have to tag MMADecisions on X to be included:

Ciryl Gane def. Alexander Volkov :: UFC 310 :: MMA Decisions

mmadecisions.com

Media submit their scores to MMADecisions. If someone doesn't their score isn't included on the page. MMADecisions doesn't go around compiling from any objectively defined sources and including scores from people who don't tag them regardless.

It's a good resource, but it's always going to be biased by the fact that the scorecards there are the scorecards media members WANT to be there.

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

Nothing to suggest Reyes and jones was close? What nonsense. Gotta love Sherdog.

I didn't stutter. This post is still sitting there waiting for anyone to rebutt

Adding onto this, since I directly compared these 2 fights "as robberies" before in another thread, I'm just gonna pull the post from there::

-

Could I have been thinking of GSP vs Hendricks?

Hmm..?

Nah, I am thinking of Jones-Reyes.

You wanna talk about close rounds? Which rounds went to Jon exactly, cuz I'm confused.

I give Jon 2 rounds, but which 3rd should I give him? They all just look so delicious.

See, this is what a split looks like.

Hmm, maybe the stats will clear things up.

Yup, those definitely look like close rounds. Total strikes and attempetd volume vs significant strikes are similar or flipped, control time with takedowns split attention. Makes sense.

Ok, so we can identify close rounds. Let's see the close rounds with Jones

You see in the first 3 rounds, the significant strikes are all so clo..
DOM +6
DOM +11
DOM +7
..wait no. Well, even if the significant strikes have a wide margin, I'm sure the total strikes and attempted volume must have made up the diff..
DOM +6 / +32
DOM +11 / +31
DOM +7 / +11
..oh no. I mean, where the strikes land is important too, so maybe Dom was just doing legwork while Jon surpassed him in combined head & body strikes to close the ga-
DOM +11
DOM +10
DOM +8
shit.. Well, Jon is one of the best wrestlers in MMA, I'm sure his successful takedowns and control time stole some ro-
JON 0/2 0 sec
JON 0/0 0 sec
JON 0/2 15 sec
... Oh... Well, there's always a difference of power and clean connections. Maybe the biggest moments of the rounds were Jones'? If you take a look at the UFC's post-round highlights in round 3, I'm sure we'll fin-

Ah.. yeah, no. I don't think there's much of an argument that Jones should have won.

Effective striking was fully in Reyes' favor in both landed quantity and quality and aggression on his side with attempted volume. Jones had center control, but mostly ineffectively, especially considering how much he had to back up and at one point actually run backwards from Reyes' combos.

The only thing people have been able to argue is somehow making this the only fight in history where lesser strikes is actually good cuz it means more accuracy, or the center of the octagon can be used to overrule effective striking.

Reyes landed around 7 more strikes in the third round and was a close round.

Hey! Glad you can count now since you previously ignored at least 3 of my posts to make up your own stats.

You'll catch up to the argument we've been having in no time!

 

[RedDevilFan]

Hey! Glad you can count now since you previously ignored at least 3 of my posts to make up your own stats.

You'll catch up to the argument we've been having in no time!

lol, no need, the argument was not valid in what you were trying to claim. The fight was close and that much is clear from your post, which you tried to say otherwise.

Enjoy your day.

 

[BarbellzNbacon]

Gsp/hendricks

 

[Captain Herb]

Interesting.

Cause in reality both Jones and GSP won because they showed the championship drive, heart, experience, and stamina to come back and win the championship rounds like they needed to. The fights were won there because Hendricks coasted thinking he already had it and Reyes gassed and couldn't even keep up anymore even if he thought he might too.

The scores round by round may or may not have been the rightful decisions, but Jones and GSP remaining champions was the right call by the end after what we'd seen from the fighters. Not because of past reputations already earned, but because of reputations re-earned during the fight itself by coming back like they did. They fought like the champions they were. By contrast nobody came out of those fights thinking Hendricks or Reyes had champion mentalities. As was re-affirmed in subsequent fights by them against others also not named GSP and Jones. Hendricks and Reyes earned reputations those fights too, they just weren't good ones.

I'm not going to get too upset about guys who didn't come out of fights looking to be the more deserving one to be champion lose their decisions. Titles were on the line too, not just records. If it had been a non-title fight I'd maybe care a tad more, but they didn't come out looking like champions so I'm okay that they weren't made them either. I don't want a champion who isn't trying at all times, nor a champion who can't even go all fight or even gives us a Rockhold "fuck you" and swing for the fences while gassed to the tits.

It's also especially shitty to claim this for GSP. You're acting like he came back and dog walked Bisping like Jones did to Gane and Stipe. GSP came back to a dog fight and once again acting like a champion with that gritty performance and gutting out his win. I'd love to see your bet that called for a bloodied GSP dropping Bisping standing and choking him unconscious. I'm sure you totally called that. GSP came back and showed us the exact same drive that led him to his prior championships, the guy deserves all his championships.

I'm sorry, I can't have a conversation with people who say that 2 championship rounds are worth more than the first 3 rounds

 

[markg171]

I'm sorry, I can't have a conversation with people who say that 2 championship rounds are worth more than the first 3 rounds

I didn't. You should learn to read, it'll help you out in life.

 

[icemun]

Its been a while for me.

I just recall thinking Hendricks won and Jones Reyes could have been a draw in my opinion.








But in both cases, I believe the challenger really needs to BEAT or FINISH the champion.

One cool thing about LHW, statistically I think almost every new LHW champion ( challenger) has FINISHED the champ.

 

[markg171]

One cool thing about LHW, statistically I think almost every new LHW champion ( challenger) has FINISHED the champ.

Mostly yes, but Randy decisioned Tito and Forrest decisioned Rampage.

 

[CJrider]

Round 1 of GSP-Hendricks is what a toss up round looks like. The fight was no robbery and round one can (and has been... to death) be argued both ways.
Reyes did get robbed.

 

[snaportap21]

Mate I literally provided you links containing media scores that aren't included in MMADecisions that paint a different story than a blanket "Everybody gave it to Hendricks this was a robbery" like the page has by only having pro Hendricks scores. It's clearly not correct.

And I know it's not correct because YOU also aren't even correct about how MMADecisions even works. The media scores are SUBMITTED to MMADecisions for inclusion on their pages. Go take a look at the scorecards and follow the links MMADecisions uses, you have to tag MMADecisions on X to be included:

Ciryl Gane def. Alexander Volkov :: UFC 310 :: MMA Decisions

mmadecisions.com

Media submit their scores to MMADecisions. If someone doesn't their score isn't included on the page. MMADecisions doesn't go around compiling from any objectively defined sources and including scores from people who don't tag them regardless.

It's a good resource, but it's always going to be biased by the fact that the scorecards there are the scorecards media members WANT to be there.

mmadecisions complies their scores via submissions from other websites. Mmadecisions doesn’t want people to believe believe anything specific as if there was some agenda. You saying mmadecisions wants people to believe gsp vs Hendricks wasn’t close makes no sense. They just posted the decisions of mma media websites that they gathered. You can wish more media sites submitted scores to have that data compiled but to say mmadecisions wants people to think a certain way is just wrong in my opinion.

 

[snaportap21]

I didn't stutter. This post is still sitting there waiting for anyone to rebutt

Effective striking was fully in Reyes' favor in both landed quantity and quality and aggression on his side with attempted volume. Jones had center control, but mostly ineffectively, especially considering how much he had to back up and at one point actually run backwards from Reyes' combos.

The only thing people have been able to argue is somehow making this the only fight in history where lesser strikes is actually good cuz it means more accuracy, or the center of the octagon can be used to overrule effective striking.


Hey! Glad you can count now since you previously ignored at least 3 of my posts to make up your own stats.

You'll catch up to the argument we've been having in no time!

Round 3 was a toss up round. According to the judging criteria at the time, aggression and octagon control is scored when the rounds are even on the feet. 7 strikes more over a 5 minute period is pretty even especially when watching live without stats to look back at. Because it’s so close on the feet, a judge can easily score the octagon control and aggression for jones. It’s hilarious you’ll try and pretend a fight like this wasn’t close.

 

[killakillakilla]

GSP/Hendricks was the worst robbery. A lot GSP fans will point to round 1 and say it was a toss up round while completely ignoring that rounds 2 and 4 should’ve been scored 10-8 for Hendricks.

 

[JBJ was here]

Round 3 was a toss up round. According to the judging criteria at the time, aggression and octagon control is scored when the rounds are even on the feet. 7 strikes more over a 5 minute period is pretty even especially when watching live without stats to look back at. Because it’s so close on the feet, a judge can easily score the octagon control and aggression for jones. It’s hilarious you’ll try and pretend a fight like this wasn’t close.

According to the judging criteria in place for Jones vs. Reyes, there were no meaningful judging criteria in place for Jones vs. Reyes. Texas is not a unified rules state. The Texas criteria are that judges must evaluate MMA techniques and score rounds using a 10-point-must system. That's literally it. The rules give non-exclusive examples of MMA techniques that must be considered and no order of priority or even definitions for use in considering MMA techniques. The rules don't even define a 10-8 round; they just say that a 10-10 round is rare and that the losing fighter in a round gets 9 or fewer points. The rules don't even exclude the use of criteria that aren't based on MMA technique - considering visible bruising or fighter hair color would be allowed within the language of the rules.