Bicep Slicer Issue

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by ComteGuillotine, Jul 27, 2010.

  1. ComteGuillotine

    ComteGuillotine Blue Belt

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    The other day I was rolling with a friend who is a high-ranking blue belt, very skilled and technical, probably soon to receive a purple belt, and I caught him in a bicep slicer from spider guard, and he explicitly refused to tap despite admitting it was painful.

    I was applying the slicer the right way and about four to five seconds went by and he didn't tap, saying he won't tap to slicers, I was getting a bit tired of trying to work the submission and I told him I didn't know how much more I wanted to throw into it because I didn't want to hear a snap/crack and it was a bit tiring to put all that effort into a submission that seemed to be going nowhere, so I just let go and he completed the guard pass.

    He seems to be under the belief that slicers are purely pain moves and he said he'll just eat the pain and won't tap to a slicer. I remember seeing a video where somebody in a no-gi match has a slicer put on them, and a loud "CRACK!" results from the failure to tap, but I don't have that link handy. I'd like to show it to my friend since I used to think slicers were purely pain moves, until I studied them and concluded otherwise, with that video being one thing that helped me form the proper conclusion.

    Usually with slicers, especially if applied from the arm-bar position, I get a tap within 1-3 seconds, and sometimes it winds up being a scream of 'tap' (in which case I instantly let go) although if more than about 4-5 seconds go by and they don't tap, I pretty much just let go and assume they don't know what the score is, since I'm not out to wreck anybody. I originally thought the slicer was a purely pain based move and in the first tournament I was in, when I was slicing a guy and he wasn't tapping, after 5-6 seconds, I bailed on the move because I thought he was just a tough guy. I had missed one minor detail and I didn't throw everything I had into it, otherwise I'd have probably wrecked him, and because I let him pass me and I got defeated. Thus, I wound up disappointed in the slicer and began to study it because I ultimately wondered if it failed me or I failed it. In the end I concluded that the submission is solid and it works, but a lot of people make the mistake of writing it off as a pain move, as I had originally done.

    How can I convince my sparring partner that the move is legitimate and shouldn't be trifled with? I don't want to finish the move on him to the point where it ends with a snap and a scream because he's my friend and I value our friendship, but I would like to be able to legitimately tap him at some point, and a slicer is often something I use to tap people who I have trouble getting, because it tends to be somewhat sneaky.

    It seems to me that the bicep slicer is one of the least understood and most under-appreciated submissions, although maybe that
     
  2. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    Unfortunetly, you cannot convince anyone. It will have to break for him to learn his lesson.

    To be honest, if it a friendly roll, you should let go of a sub if you cannot get a tap within 5 seconds. no point grinding away.

    just choke him next time.
     
  3. ComteGuillotine

    ComteGuillotine Blue Belt

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    I've never been able to land a choke on him, aside from a very close straight ankle-lock that took a bit of doing on his part to defend/fight out of, and the recent slicer, I've never come particularly close to tapping him, he's pretty solid with his technique and he has at least 1.5 years, if not 2 years, on me.

    I'll start trying for other stuff though, but the bicep slicer is one of the few things I can consistently do from a spider guard, spot since spider guard leaves me a bit perplexed as to what to do, since I have trouble with sweeps from that position.
     
  4. RearAndNaked

    RearAndNaked Blue Belt

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    It's his responsibility to know what time it is imo. I had an Americana on a close friend once and he is a stubborn fcuker who tries with all his might not to tap. It was pretty nasty ad I said to him "are you sure you're okay?" he said "yes", I cranked it a bit more (slowly) amd it cracked. He still didn't tap haha (I let go).
    I'd say keep going until he taps or it goes, or roll with someone else.
     
  5. UpaLoompa

    UpaLoompa Grand Quasiprophet of the Sakaran Apocolyps

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    Slicers are weird in that even though they (apparently) can cause damage it isn't necessarily safe to assume that they will. Like you say it is hard to tell if every detail is down so it may indeed be something that is just inflicting pain.

    I've had the distinctly uncomfortable impression of my humerus bending. I tapped quickly. Other times it clearly has been mainly pain and I've not worried about it and found a way out.
     
  6. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    In gi, they're illegal until brown belt anyway
     
  7. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    lot of people still trains them regardless of competition rules.
     
  8. Jango

    Jango Yellow Belt

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    People who don't tap are only hurting themselves.
     
  9. stoneeh12***

    stoneeh12*** Orange Belt

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    best answer all thread
     
  10. Mumrik

    Mumrik Silver Belt

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    Even if you don't end up with a snapped bone that pain isn't there for no reason - you're doing damage to the muscle so he should think about whether it was worth the damage to tough it out in practice. He'll probably be sore for a few days and what did he prove?

    Nothing, it's easy as fuck to tough out a pain move when you're rolling and have a bit of adrenaline going. I tend to end up doing this and I feel like an idiot afterwards... It's just practice after all.
     
  11. SteelHammer

    SteelHammer Green Belt

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    Sorry but are you talking about a slicer where you use your shin inside his arm? or are u just using one of your forearms inside his arm
     
  12. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    I can be either. arm or shin.
     
  13. dirtypablo

    dirtypablo Brown Belt

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  14. CrazyJHL

    CrazyJHL Brown Belt

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    I got caught in one last week, on Monday. I was rolling against a purple belt, and he locked it in. Prior to that I had no idea what it was...so I was surprised he caught me in the particular position. They hurt, my arm was sore for a few days, I should of tapped. Pride gets in the way, sucks.
     
  15. AboveThisFire

    AboveThisFire Green Belt

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  16. Kyuktooki

    Kyuktooki Blue Belt

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    Someone should tap if they are in a bicep slicer but I think it is also something people should be very careful with. I had myself injured when I was a new white belt by a high blue trapping both of my arms and putting a bicep slicer on one of them. I currently train with a complete dumbass who has only every tapped people with neck cranks and bicep slicers. He is the same guy that does not let go of guillotines even after you have moved to side control (I have not been having luck with the von flue) and is strong enough and stubborn enough to hold you in this position for minutes. Even if you are not a dumbass such as he, you should be careful with submitting people with submissions that are banned for a good reason (they are good submissions but they can seriously injure people as by the time it hurts you are pretty much already mildly injured or worse).
     
  17. Carrnage

    Carrnage White Belt

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    I agree, i did the exact same thing to a slice on Monday night and now have a massive cork in said bicept, it did not hurt at the time but now regret not tapping
     
  18. ComteGuillotine

    ComteGuillotine Blue Belt

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    The in-school tournament I went to allowed anything in the gi, at the blue belt level (the level I was competing at, being a blue belt) except heel-hooks and neck-cranks. You mean in official nationwide/sanctioned tournaments, right?
     
  19. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    He is talking the IBJJF competition rules.
     
  20. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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