Better: Palhares at heel hooks or Ronda at armbars?

[mjoln]

who is better at leglocks palhares or imanari?

 

[KrPlud]

Honda

 

[UL]

Palhares because he's fighting solid opponents

Not saying Ronda isn't but when you get a response of "I didn't think she was going to go for my arm"

Well...

 

[Dan155]

who is better at leglocks palhares or imanari?

Good question. I think maybe Imanari is the better technician, but Palhares is obviously more malicious and much, much stronger, which goes a long way in affecting an opponent psychologically.

 

[Peteyandjia]

I doubt the eye pokes were much of a factor, actually. You can grapple with your eyes closed, after all.

That's kinda silly imo, no offense to you. It isn't a videogame. Yeah, you could do a blindfold match, and do well (though you would be debilitated); but that isn't what it's about here. Think about it - eye damage ends careers. You're having to worry about whether your cornea is scratched, with each rake and poke. On top of that, the weird pain, having to engage in an argument with the ref, the ref is not doing shit, etc. All of these are unacceptable factors to compete under, or to judge someone's competition under imo. They will hugely affect the performance in the fight. That match was a shitshow. Maz should not be allowed to ref, he had no control over anything in that cage.

 

[LargeMammal]

Tbf, Belcher really did make Palhares look one-dimensional on the ground. Once Belcher shut down several leg lock set ups Palhares had nothing else to offer off of his back. Then he was pounded out.

His WW stint has been the best work of his career and against high level comp.

It's true but I guess there's elements of mental game when fighting Palhares, (pardon the pun), but Belcher seemed like the first person to not completely shit himself when it went to the ground

 

[Malthian]

Eye gauges not only affect your ability to see what your opponent is doing, but the pain is a distraction.

That's like saying getting punched in the groin shouldn't affect your ability to grapple. Pain is pain and it creates an unfair distraction when you're trying to fight, especially when it's pain that you wouldn't normally anticipate.

Nobody anticipates getting raked in the eyes when they fight so it creates an advantage that simply shouldn't be there.

And that's aside from the mental distraction of worrying whether your vision is going to be permanently impaired.

 

[War Pig]

Mayweather with KO's.

 

[Dan155]

That's kinda silly imo, no offense to you. It isn't a videogame. Yeah, you could do a blindfold match, and do well (though you would be debilitated); but that isn't what it's about here. Think about it - eye damage ends careers. You're having to worry about whether your cornea is scratched, with each rake and poke. On top of that, the weird pain, having to engage in an argument with the ref, the ref is not doing shit, etc. All of these are unacceptable factors to compete under, or to judge someone's competition under imo. They will hugely affect the performance in the fight. That match was a shitshow. Maz should not be allowed to ref, he had no control over anything in that cage.

I routinely grapple with my eyes closed to no detriment and have sustained a detached retina in a grappling tournament that I went on to win. To say that eye damage affected Shields' ability to know that Palhares was locking a kimura and transitioning to a sweep is "kinda silly" doesn't reflect the realities of which faculties are most important to grappling. Once you're on your opponent like that, vision is a non-issue.

Arguing with the ref. minutes prior may have ruffled Shields' feathers, but that would not necessarily translate into degraded submission defense. If it did, Shields needs to toughen up and learn resiliency, because not every fight is walk through the park on a summer's day. The several huge knees and punches that Shields took moments before getting subbed, on the other hand, may have affected the outcome, not to mention Palhares' grappling superiority.

 

[Dan155]

Eye gauges not only affect your ability to see what your opponent is doing, but the pain is a distraction.

That's like saying getting punched in the groin shouldn't affect your ability to grapple. Pain is pain and it creates an unfair distraction when you're trying to fight, especially when it's pain that you wouldn't normally anticipate.

Nobody anticipates getting raked in the eyes when they fight so it creates an advantage that simply shouldn't be there.

And that's aside from the mental distraction of worrying whether your vision is going to be permanently impaired.

It's nothing like that, honestly. Do any of you guys even grapple? If so, close your eyes sometime and see whether "knowing what your opponent is doing" is even marginally degraded.

Spoiler

It's not.

 

[Peteyandjia]

I routinely grapple with my eyes closed to no detriment and have sustained a detached retina in a grappling tournament that I went on to win.

My bad, I didn't realize I was having the great honor of conversing with Zatoichi, the Blind Swordsman.

Too bad it wasn't you in there instead of Jake Fuckin' Shields, surely Palhares would have left on a stretcher.

 

[x__stylez__x]

Palhares

 

[Dan155]

My bad, I didn't realize I was having the great honor of conversing with Zatoichi, the Blind Swordsman.

Too bad it wasn't you in there instead of Jake Fuckin' Shields, surely Palhares would have left on a stretcher.

You were spouting silly bullshit that betrayed a serious ignorance of grappling, I countered it by relating relevant personal experience. If you can't engage in principled discourse, don't waste my time with your childish replies, please.

 

[Bones245n4847]

I think Harris because of the competition. He is tapping bjj blackbelts who are hard to deal with on the ground. Fitch and Shields are good grapplers. Anybody could armbar the girls Rhonda did. You probably have to be a top of the line, world famous bjj practioner to tap Shields.

 

[Oshime2]

The eye gouging and lack of a response by Mazzagatti caused Shields to lose his cool, which I definitely think affected the third round. If you're fighting angry you're gonna use more energy. If you can't see you're gonna get hit more often. Those factors contributed to Shields gassing in the third and ultimately getting caught.

We can all say whatever we want about how we would or wouldn't have reacted, but none of us were there. Personally, I'm not going to comment on the toughness of a 40-fight veteran.

 

[GrAtI]

Palhares

 

[Dan155]

I think Harris because of the competition. He is tapping bjj blackbelts who are hard to deal with on the ground. Fitch and Shields are good grapplers. Anybody could armbar the girls Rhonda did. You probably have to be a top of the line, world famous bjj practioner to tap Shields.

Mayhem came really close to submitting Shields (had a deep RNC but time ran out in the round). But yeah, I think Shields is a really big fish and a huge feather in Palhares' cap. Too bad he ruined it by holding on too long. :/

 

[Malthian]

I routinely grapple with my eyes closed to no detriment and have sustained a detached retina in a grappling tournament that I went on to win. To say that eye damage affected Shields' ability to know that Palhares was locking a kimura and transitioning to a sweep is "kinda silly" doesn't reflect the realities of which faculties are most important to grappling. Once you're on your opponent like that, vision is a non-issue.

Arguing with the ref. minutes prior may have ruffled Shields' feathers, but that would not necessarily translate into degraded submission defense. If it did, Shields needs to toughen up and learn resiliency, because not every fight is walk through the park on a summer's day. The several huge knees and punches that Shields took moments before getting subbed, on the other hand, may have affected the outcome, not to mention Palhares' grappling superiority.

You do realize that a detached retina is painless and not comparable to being eye gouged?

Don't believe me, I refer you to the Mayo Clinic....

Retinal detachment itself is painless, but retinal detachment warning signs and symptoms almost always appear before it occurs or has advanced. Retinal detachment symptoms may include...

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/retinal-detachment/basics/symptoms/con-20022595

They aren't comparable in any way, shape or form versus having your cornea scratched, your eyelids swelling, your tear ducts flowing, and experiencing repeated eye rakes.

And yes, I've grappled. There is a difference between the range of expected pain and pain from areas that you know shouldn't hurt at all.

As for losing your cool, if you KNOW someone is cheating and intentionally putting your livelihood and future quality of life at risk (blindness), then yes I would lose my cool.

I wouldn't have stopped at punching Palhares. Heck, I might have considered meeting him in the parking lot with a tire iron.

Repeated eye rakes are far worse than groin strikes, head spikes, or even holding a sub long (which is also a BS move). You don't mess with a person's eyes. It's that simple unless you want to get punched in the throat in a dark alley.

 

[Peteyandjia]

You were spouting silly bullshit that betrayed a serious ignorance of grappling, I countered it by relating relevant personal experience. If you can't engage in principled discourse, don't waste my time with your childish replies, please.

Your idea that eye rape does not affect one's performance, especially against a high-level assassin like Palhares, is childish. To me.

With all due respect to your "relevant personal experience" of having subbed Roger Gracie at Mundials, with both of your eyes gouged out.

 

[Dan155]

You do realize that a detached retina is painless and not comparable to being eye gouged?

Don't believe me, I refer you to the Mayo Clinic....



http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/retinal-detachment/basics/symptoms/con-20022595

They aren't comparable in any way, shape or form versus having your cornea scratched, your eyelids swelling, your tear ducts flowing, and experiencing repeated eye rakes.

And yes, I've grappled. There is a difference between the range of expected pain and pain from areas that you know shouldn't hurt at all.

As for losing your cool, if you KNOW someone is cheating and intentionally putting your livelihood and future quality of life at risk (blindness), then yes I would lose my cool.

I wouldn't have stopped at punching Palhares. Heck, I might have considered meeting him in the parking lot with a tire iron.

Repeated eye rakes are far worse than groin strikes, head spikes, or even holding a sub long (which is also a BS move). You don't mess with a person's eyes. It's that simple unless you want to get punched in the throat in a dark alley.

To state the obvious, my retinal detachment resulted from trauma to the eye. So, yeah, the injury was painful. But thanks for your diagnosis, doc.