Better base for MMA - Judo or BJJ?

[TheMaster]

So if you could only put a kid in one style from the age of 10 which would it be?
Yes their both great etc etc.
And no answers of 'do wrestling'.

The question is, which would be a better base between Judo and BJJ (traditional gi) if there was only opportunity and desire to train one style from youth to blackbelt level between the ages of about 10 -18.
A better base to then aged 18 cross train other arts to prepare for mma.

I'm going with Judo.
Can learn some BJJ or submission grappling later in more depth and will already have a base in it.
Will also have 8 years of throws, takedown defence and standing grappling and if he wants to then learn standup and clinch fighting can do that. And also Judo > BJJ for self defence thats covered also.

If had done BJJ would be a ground fighting maestro but too many other holes most importantly poor ability to get the fight to the ground.

I'm sure others have alternate opinions however. So lets hear both sides pros and cons if you were only to train either of these as a base from youth.

 

[Seefoo]

No-gi better prepares you for MMA, and gi-based throws dont translate well when you're fighting topless people, so BJJ, obviously.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

How Many mma champs have come out from a judo background, how many bjj ones? Not much to discuss.

 

[TheMaster]

No-gi better prepares you for MMA, and gi-based throws dont translate well when you're fighting topless people, so BJJ, obviously.

Training gi submissions and no strikes on the ground doesnt translate to mma either. So whats your point? They both need to be adapted.

How Many mma champs have come out from a judo background, how many bjj ones? Not much to discuss.

Some examples of Judoka who did not bad in MMA



I think you'll find the involvement of the BJJ community in mma in general and historically is the main difference as compared to Judo. Doesnt mean in any way it is a better base.

 

[CFGroup]

For kids?

Judo!

Better athletes and training in the right Dojo's due to it's Olympic status.

Also establishes a great base for other sports.

And how many other activities are perfected rolling around on the ground?

I'm working with a couple of high level BJJ guys at work and their physical movement on their feet is as average as anyone else not trained. One guy who talks about all the competitive shit he did under Planet 10...10th Planet..., breaks a sweat just showing me wrestling entries and working the regular physical aspect of the job. He'd kick the shit out of me on the ground no question....but 9/10ths of our lives are on our feet...

BJJ is a very narrow athletic application.

 

[Seefoo]

Training gi submissions and no strikes on the ground doesnt translate to mma either. So whats your point? They both need to be adapted.

Again, BJJ offers no-gi training and competition that translates directly to MMA. Additionally, there are Bjj schools that teach striking from the ground and to defend striking while grappling (typically Gjj) and offers leg-locks and guard play from bottom. Judo offers none of that.

Wrestling completely takes Judo's place in MMA.

 

[tekkenfan]

i say bjj i train with a kid whos 1-0 pro 9-3 amateur whos done judo since he was 5 and karate with great coaches in those styles. the kids got great striking for mma but he cant stop a double or single to save his life. he just tries to uchi mata everyone who singles him, gets his back taken a lot cause guys let the single go usually when they realize what hes trying to do.

without the lapel have to have very very good control of the body to make a lot of those throws work and this kids done it most of his life being hes 22 now he works bjj now and takedowns cause he realizes this

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Training gi submissions and no strikes on the ground doesnt translate to mma either. So whats your point? They both need to be adapted.



Some examples of Judoka who did not bad in MMA

View attachment 475923 View attachment 475925

I think you'll find the involvement of the BJJ community in mma in general and historically is the main difference as compared to Judo. Doesnt mean in any way it is a better base.

Did I say none judoka ever got to be good at mma? Many have, but the sheer numbers speak for themselves...

Bjj hs añwasys been related to mma, judo hasn’t.. you couldn’t go around and shop for a judo school that taught mma 20 years ago, vale tudo training was very normal on bjj schools, that’s why bjj was always more sucesfuñ as a fighting art than judo... judo is adn was an Olympic sport very spwcialiSwd for the decades, bjj was not. The current state of bjj is different, yet you can still find and it’s nothing weird to have grappling with strikers once in a while, and more than anything no gi training, judo doesn’t.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Again, BJJ offers no-gi training and competition that translates directly to MMA. Additionally, there are Bjj schools that teach striking from the ground and to defend striking while grappling (typically Gjj) and offers leg-locks and guard play from bottom. Judo offers none of that.

Wrestling completely takes Judo's place in MMA.

It’s really a non brainer which transfers best, and as you said wrestles blows judo for stand up grappling for mma...

 

[TheMaster]

Again, BJJ offers no-gi training and competition that translates directly to MMA. Additionally, there are Bjj schools that teach striking from the ground and to defend striking while grappling (typically Gjj) and offers leg-locks and guard play from bottom. Judo offers none of that.

Wrestling completely takes Judo's place in MMA.

Again, the question is not about cross training. Pure BJJ as a base vs pure Judo.

We all know BJJ has no choice but to try to ride the coatails of wrestlers to make up for the horrible levels of takedown ability. "A Wrestler trained in BJJ beats Judo". An opinion with some merit maybe but thats not the discussion.

And wrestling does not replace Judo, it is a different system with different mechanics they have their place but obviously no gi changes things.

So your saying that it is better to be a pure sport BJJ blackbelt who excels at ground game but has no takedown ability or defence when he starts to cross train.
He then has to learn wresting and standing grappling pretty much from scratch which is not easy at all. He also generally has poor athletecism compared to a Judoka.

Our Judo blackbelt meanwhile has to work on his ground game but he already has effective throws and takedown defence and far superior body control, with familiarity with ground grappling.
A much easier transition if he wants to add standup, much smoother if he wants to add some wrestling and clinch fighting and can easily refine his work on submissions.

Judo is far more complete as a base when it comes time for our blackbelts to cross train.
And in Russua and some former soviet blocs they just as easily have the structure there to make Judo more combatative with sambo etc it doesnt just have to be for olympic style.

 

[grapplejuice]

Judo.

 

[nefti]

Wrestling

 

[Seefoo]

Again, the question is not about cross training. Pure BJJ as a base vs pure Judo.

I'm not talking about cross-training.

Since you don't seem to understand what I'm saying, I'm going to break it down for you:

In Bjj there is No-gi competition, so a lot of Bjj schools offer No-gi. I went to a "traditional" Gracie academy and even they offered multiple no-gi classes. Some schools of Bjj like 10th planet are entirely no-gi. No-gi competition forces you to adapt your grips to someone not wearing a gi. No-gi makes things move a lot more quickly, alters the guard game, the standing game, the transition game, pretty much all aspects of your game. This not only translates to MMA, but it also translates to wrestling, because you have to use wrestling takedowns and grips in order to compete effectively. Thus when you need to learn wrestling, your background in no-gi will help with the transition, because you're already used to the grips, takedowns, and speed of grappling without a gi.

That's strike one against Judo.

Secondly, Judo lacks the ground game necessary to be competitive in MMA. Judo newaza while sufficient for Judo competition, is neutered by its ruleset. In MMA you're not going to be stood up after a few seconds on the ground. Your Guard and escapes are going to be substandard because you were trained to turtle up to avoid too much ground fighting. You're not going to be hunting for back takes, or even understand how to take the back when the opportunity arises. You're not going to be able to perform, or defend the leg lock. You're not going to know what to do when someone is on top GNPing in the face, and vice versa you're not going know how to move to a mount position because you were never trained positional hierarchy which is drilled into MMA competitors (and comes from Bjj).

That's strike two against Judo.

Finally, modern Judo isn't too keen on you bringing in outside influences into the dojo. You know that cool takedown from the single leg you saw on UFC fight night? Yeah, you're not going to be allowed to do that move while training. You're definitely not going to be allowed to do that move in competition. That wild new Bjj guard that transitions directly into a leg lock? Yeah, you're not allowed to do that either. Meanwhile, Bjj allows everything, and is an open lab for you to experiment and adopt new methods to your ground and standing game. You're going to know how to do and to stop single and double leg takedowns. You're going to know how to do and to stop leg-locks. You're going to be free to do joint locks that attack multiple joints. You're going to be free to do guillotines. You're going to be free to come up with crazy new tactics and variations that make your game your own. In short, Bjj doesn't limit your grappling, so in the end you become a more well-rounded grappler, making your transition to MMA a lot easier.

That's strike three against Judo.

I hope that helps.

We all know BJJ has no choice but to try to ride the coatails of wrestlers to make up for the horrible levels of takedown ability. "A Wrestler trained in BJJ beats Judo". An opinion with some merit maybe but thats not the discussion.

Quick question: If Judo was so much better than Bjj, why aren't Olympic-level or high-level Judokas tearing through the major world Bjj championships? High level Bjj practitioners can't do it in Judo because the restrictive rules hinder their ability to win. However, in Bjj competition, no rules hinder a Judoka's ability to dominate. So what's the problem?

And wrestling does not replace Judo, it is a different system with different mechanics they have their place but obviously no gi changes things.

Uh, wrestling absolutely replaces Judo. If your goal is MMA and you have years of Bjj experience, why the hell would you go to Judo over Wrestling? If you've been doing no-gi BJJ for years, wrestling is going to feel natural for you, and your progress is going to go very quickly. Wrestling grips are more suitable for MMA, and training via wrestling will give you a lot more takedowns and transitions to apply directly into your ground game. Frankly, Judo would actually HINDER your progress into MMA.

Conversely, if you're a wrestler looking to enter MMA why the hell would you go to Judo over Bjj? Bjj will allow you to perform your wrestling takedowns, and your wrestling experience will be embraced by your Bjj gym and your progress will again go very quickly. You'll also have an immediate competitive outlet with no-gi Bjj. Re-learning your entire stand-up game to obtain a couple of Judo throws that you're going to have to modify anyway seems counter-intuitive and a waste of time. Also you'd be insane to believe that Judo does newaza better than Bjj (which is why you're cross-training in the first place).

In both cases you have zero reason to do Judo over Wrestling and Bjj, which are the standards of grappling in MMA.

So your saying that it is better to be a pure sport BJJ blackbelt who excels at ground game but has no takedown ability or defence when he starts to cross train.
He then has to learn wresting and standing grappling pretty much from scratch which is not easy at all. He also generally has poor athletecism compared to a Judoka.

The very premise of your statement is nonsense. I have yet to meet a Bjj blackbelt that has ZERO takedown ability and especially takedown defense. What the hell are you smoking man?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

P

Again, the question is not about cross training. Pure BJJ as a base vs pure Judo.

We all know BJJ has no choice but to try to ride the coatails of wrestlers to make up for the horrible levels of takedown ability. "A Wrestler trained in BJJ beats Judo". An opinion with some merit maybe but thats not the discussion.

And wrestling does not replace Judo, it is a different system with different mechanics they have their place but obviously no gi changes things.

So your saying that it is better to be a pure sport BJJ blackbelt who excels at ground game but has no takedown ability or defence when he starts to cross train.
He then has to learn wresting and standing grappling pretty much from scratch which is not easy at all. He also generally has poor athletecism compared to a Judoka.

Our Judo blackbelt meanwhile has to work on his ground game but he already has effective throws and takedown defence and far superior body control, with familiarity with ground grappling.
A much easier transition if he wants to add standup, much smoother if he wants to add some wrestling and clinch fighting and can easily refine his work on submissions.

Judo is far more complete as a base when it comes time for our blackbelts to cross train.
And in Russua and some former soviet blocs they just as easily have the structure there to make Judo more combatative with sambo etc it doesnt just have to be for olympic style.

Only problem is, judo is not mma, not his tds are all tranfarwble to mma, in your fantasy world judokas train no gi leg grabs allow etc, They don’t. Pure sport bjj schools do tend to suck at tds, but not all of them, more mma focus schools such as Carlson’s branch had always good takes fuxkkng Ricardo arona came from there... bjj is a very wide art, it’s a hybrid practice in many forms, lots of bjj schools are not shining away from getting wrestling coaches to teach stand up grappling, or even judo guys, something you will never see happen in a sport as judo.

Truth is, judo needs to be adapted to mma, mucho more than pure bjj does. And the numbers reflect that.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I'm not talking about cross-training.

Since you don't seem to understand what I'm saying, I'm going to break it down for you:

In Bjj there is No-gi competition, so a lot of Bjj schools offer No-gi. I went to a "traditional" Gracie academy and even they offered multiple no-gi classes. Some schools of Bjj like 10th planet are entirely no-gi. No-gi competition forces you to adapt your grips to someone not wearing a gi. No-gi makes things move a lot more quickly, alters the guard game, the standing game, the transition game, pretty much all aspects of your game. This not only translates to MMA, but it also translates to wrestling, because you have to use wrestling takedowns and grips in order to compete effectively. Thus when you need to learn wrestling, your background in no-gi will help with the transition, because you're already used to the grips, takedowns, and speed of grappling without a gi.

That's strike one against Judo.

Secondly, Judo lacks the ground game necessary to be competitive in MMA. Judo newaza while sufficient for Judo competition, is neutered by its ruleset. In MMA you're not going to be stood up after a few seconds on the ground. Your Guard and escapes are going to be substandard because you were trained to turtle up to avoid too much ground fighting. You're not going to be hunting for back takes, or even understand how to take the back when the opportunity arises. You're not going to be able to perform, or defend the leg lock. You're not going to know what to do when someone is on top GNPing in the face, and vice versa you're not going know how to move to a mount position because you were never trained positional hierarchy which is drilled into MMA competitors (and comes from Bjj).

That's strike two against Judo.

Finally, modern Judo isn't too keen on you bringing in outside influences into the dojo. You know that cool takedown from the single leg you saw on UFC fight night? Yeah, you're not going to be allowed to do that move while training. You're definitely not going to be allowed to do that move in competition. That wild new Bjj guard that transitions directly into a leg lock? Yeah, you're not allowed to do that either. Meanwhile, Bjj allows everything, and is an open lab for you to experiment and adopt new methods to your ground and standing game. You're going to know how to do and to stop single and double leg takedowns. You're going to know how to do and to stop leg-locks. You're going to be free to do joint locks that attack multiple joints. You're going to be free to do guillotines. You're going to be free to come up with crazy new tactics and variations that make your game your own. In short, Bjj doesn't limit your grappling, so in the end you become a more well-rounded grappler, making your transition to MMA a lot easier.

That's strike three against Judo.

I hope that helps.



Quick question: If Judo was so much better than Bjj, why aren't Olympic-level or high-level Judokas tearing through the major world Bjj championships? High level Bjj practitioners can't do it in Judo because the restrictive rules hinder their ability to win. However, in Bjj competition, no rules hinder a Judoka's ability to dominate. So what's the problem?



Uh, wrestling absolutely replaces Judo. If your goal is MMA and you have years of Bjj experience, why the hell would you go to Judo over Wrestling? If you've been doing no-gi BJJ for years, wrestling is going to feel natural for you, and your progress is going to go very quickly. Wrestling grips are more suitable for MMA, and training via wrestling will give you a lot more takedowns and transitions to apply directly into your ground game. Frankly, Judo would actually HINDER your progress into MMA.

Conversely, if you're a wrestler looking to enter MMA why the hell would you go to Judo over Bjj? Bjj will allow you to perform your wrestling takedowns, and your wrestling experience will be embraced by your Bjj gym and your progress will again go very quickly. You'll also have an immediate competitive outlet with no-gi Bjj. Re-learning your entire stand-up game to obtain a couple of Judo throws that you're going to have to modify anyway seems counter-intuitive and a waste of time. Also you'd be insane to believe that Judo does newaza better than Bjj (which is why you're cross-training in the first place).

In both cases you have zero reason to do Judo over Wrestling and Bjj, which are the standards of grappling in MMA.



The very premise of your question is nonsense. I have yet to meet a Bjj blackbelt that has ZERO takedown ability and especially takedown defense. What the hell are you smoking man?

Pretty much this

 

[TheMaster]

I'm not talking about cross-training.

Since you don't seem to understand what I'm saying, I'm going to break it down for you:

In Bjj there is No-gi competition, so a lot of Bjj schools offer No-gi. I went to a "traditional" Gracie academy and even they offered multiple no-gi classes. Some schools of Bjj like 10th planet are entirely no-gi. No-gi competition forces you to adapt your grips to someone not wearing a gi. No-gi makes things move a lot more quickly, alters the guard game, the standing game, the transition game, pretty much all aspects of your game. This not only translates to MMA, but it also translates to wrestling, because you have to use wrestling takedowns and grips in order to compete effectively. Thus when you need to learn wrestling, your background in no-gi will help with the transition, because you're already used to the grips, takedowns, and speed of grappling without a gi.

That's strike one against Judo.

Secondly, Judo lacks the ground game necessary to be competitive in MMA. Judo newaza while sufficient for Judo competition, is neutered by its ruleset. In MMA you're not going to be stood up after a few seconds on the ground. Your Guard and escapes are going to be substandard because you were trained to turtle up to avoid too much ground fighting. You're not going to be hunting for back takes, or even understand how to take the back when the opportunity arises. You're not going to be able to perform, or defend the leg lock. You're not going to know what to do when someone is on top GNPing in the face, and vice versa you're not going know how to move to a mount position because you were never trained positional hierarchy which is drilled into MMA competitors (and comes from Bjj).

That's strike two against Judo.

Finally, modern Judo isn't too keen on you bringing in outside influences into the dojo. You know that cool takedown from the single leg you saw on UFC fight night? Yeah, you're not going to be allowed to do that move while training. You're definitely not going to be allowed to do that move in competition. That wild new Bjj guard that transitions directly into a leg lock? Yeah, you're not allowed to do that either. Meanwhile, Bjj allows everything, and is an open lab for you to experiment and adopt new methods to your ground and standing game. You're going to know how to do and to stop single and double leg takedowns. You're going to know how to do and to stop leg-locks. You're going to be free to do joint locks that attack multiple joints. You're going to be free to do guillotines. You're going to be free to come up with crazy new tactics and variations that make your game your own. In short, Bjj doesn't limit your grappling, so in the end you become a more well-rounded grappler, making your transition to MMA a lot easier.

That's strike three against Judo.

I hope that helps.



Quick question: If Judo was so much better than Bjj, why aren't Olympic-level or high-level Judokas tearing through the major world Bjj championships? High level Bjj practitioners can't do it in Judo because the restrictive rules hinder their ability to win. However, in Bjj competition, no rules hinder a Judoka's ability to dominate. So what's the problem?



Uh, wrestling absolutely replaces Judo. If your goal is MMA and you have years of Bjj experience, why the hell would you go to Judo over Wrestling? If you've been doing no-gi BJJ for years, wrestling is going to feel natural for you, and your progress is going to go very quickly. Wrestling grips are more suitable for MMA, and training via wrestling will give you a lot more takedowns and transitions to apply directly into your ground game. Frankly, Judo would actually HINDER your progress into MMA.

Conversely, if you're a wrestler looking to enter MMA why the hell would you go to Judo over Bjj? Bjj will allow you to perform your wrestling takedowns, and your wrestling experience will be embraced by your Bjj gym and your progress will again go very quickly. You'll also have an immediate competitive outlet with no-gi Bjj. Re-learning your entire stand-up game to obtain a couple of Judo throws that you're going to have to modify anyway seems counter-intuitive and a waste of time. Also you'd be insane to believe that Judo does newaza better than Bjj (which is why you're cross-training in the first place).

In both cases you have zero reason to do Judo over Wrestling and Bjj, which are the standards of grappling in MMA.



The very premise of your statement is nonsense. I have yet to meet a Bjj blackbelt that has ZERO takedown ability and especially takedown defense. What the hell are you smoking man?

Actually YOU ARE talking about a form of cross training. You are talking about hybridizing of tradititional BJJ into a mixed grappling art incorporating different elements of what works to an 'open lab'. Well thats fine, but then lets not pretend that its just BJJ anymore.

Your premise that doing Judo could hinder a grappling transition to mma is idiotic. If you had that intention you would adapt your training of Judo accordingly.
Let me reiterate to you. Wrestling DOES NOT replace Judo at all. They are different systems with different mechanics that have benefits. See that recent reversal Fedor did on Sonnen into a throw? Unique Judo mechanics in action that wrestling could never give you. Just because college wrestling is the dominant form of grappling in the US and mma in the US is done without a gi, does not mean wrestling replaces Judo.

The question was about traditional gi BJJ with sport rules vs Judo.
Now you have totally changed the dicussion to include no gi. As you mention everything changes, then add wrestling grips and takedowns its not BJJ anymore it is a hybrid art.
If were going to compare like that then why not we just compare with Judo and Sambo as well, as it is a Judo derivative art mixed with wrestling. Most Judo guys in Russua also train sambo.

So basically your points revolve simply on the fact that BJJ in the US is much more associated with mma and has adapted itself to this end.
In Russia the same opporrunites exist for Judo and sambo to adapt to mma.

If we had no-gi Judo what would it be like? Two different but related sports. We can compare to when Karo Parisyan put the beating on Nick Diaz as the most direct comparison of Judo vs BJJ in mma I can think of. Parisyan adapted his Judo to mma just fine and as expected controlled the fight due to his far superior body control. Whstever edge Nick may have had in submissions Karo had trained to a level to neutralize.
The diffetence is there are institutions to adapt BJJ to mma but far less in Judo. This doesnt stop a dedicated Judoka adapting to mma with success if he wants to.

So if we return now to my premise, pure sport BJJ blackbelt (with gi) VS pure Judo blackbelt, the Judo guy has a FAR easier transition. If they want to cross train different styles after blackbelt level theres nothing to stop the Judoka doing no gi submission grappling or catch. We're talking as a BASE. And as a base, having superior balance, body control, standing grappling and throws and takedown defence and familiarity with groundgame is far superior to being a ground grappling expert who cant take it to the ground or stay standing if he wants.
The expanded opportunitues for doing BJJ no gi or combined with wrestling takedowns etc can easily be done by Judokas also if there is a desire.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Actually YOU ARE talking about a form of cross training. You are talking about hybridizing of tradititional BJJ into a mixed grappling art incorporating different elements of what works to an 'open lab'. Well thats fine, but then lets not pretend that its just BJJ anymore.

Your premise that doing Judo could hinder a grappling transition to mma is idiotic. If you had that intention you would adapt your training of Judo accordingly.
Let me reiterate to you. Wrestling DOES NOT replace Judo at all. They are different systems with different mechanics that have benefits. See that recent reversal Fedor did on Sonnen into a throw? Unique Judo mechanics in action that wrestling could never give you. Just because college wrestling is the dominant form of grappling in the US and mma in the US is done without a gi, does not mean wrestling replaces Judo.

The question was about traditional gi BJJ with sport rules vs Judo.
Now you have totally changed the dicussion to include no gi. As you mention everything changes, then add wrestling grips and takedowns its not BJJ anymore it is a hybrid art.
If were going to compare like that then why not we just compare with Judo and Sambo as well, as it is a Judo derivative art mixed with wrestling. Most Judo guys in Russua also train sambo.

So basically your points revolve simply on the fact that BJJ in the US is much more associated with mma and has adapted itself to this end.
In Russia the same opporrunites exist for Judo and sambo to adapt to mma.

If we had no-gi Judo what would it be like? Two different but related sports. We can compare to when Karo Parisyan put the beating on Nick Diaz as the most direct comparison of Judo vs BJJ in mma I can think of. Parisyan adapted his Judo to mma just fine and as expected controlled the fight due to his far superior body control. Whstever edge Nick may have had in submissions Karo had trained to a level to neutralize.
The diffetence is there are institutions to adapt BJJ to mma but far less in Judo. This doesnt stop a dedicated Judoka adapting to mma with success if he wants to.

So if we return now to my premise, pure sport BJJ blackbelt (with gi) VS pure Judo blackbelt, the Judo guy has a FAR easier transition. If they want to cross train different styles after blackbelt level theres nothing to stop the Judoka doing no gi submission grappling or catch. We're talking as a BASE. And as a base, having superior balance, body control, standing grappling and throws and takedown defence and familiarity with groundgame is far superior to being a ground grappling expert who cant take it to the ground or stay standing if he wants.
The expanded opportunitues for doing BJJ no gi or combined with wrestling takedowns etc can easily be done by Judokas also if there is a desire.

The good old Karo analogy... Karo wasn’t a pure judo guy, he was a hayastan grappler, which it’s a hybrid style..

And the most direct analogy would be Royce vs pardel or Renzo vs spiders, both got beaten by these bjj dudes with zero td... or how about Bigfoot vs fedor or werdum vs fedor or how about arona mauling fedor and getting robbed? Let alone ishi, the most prominent judoka jumping ships to mma in his prime and dong exactly jack shit, let alone Royce besting the shut out of 50 pounds heavier Yoshida in a mma fight... Fuckkng Royce Gracie...

what he meant is that if you have wrestling you need zero judo to be compwtwtwn in mma, again the numbers shows that...

To even pretend judo is close to wrestling in terms of efficiency in mma is just idiotic to say the least.

You talk about having good tdd, well, in a mma concept, to have that in favor, you would need to be the better striker also, other way why on earth would you keep the fight standing?

Judo, as the number id the vast mayority of top camps show is the least efficient base for mma, by far.

 

[TroldeAnsigt]

Actually YOU ARE talking about a form of cross training. You are talking about hybridizing of tradititional BJJ into a mixed grappling art incorporating different elements of what works to an 'open lab'. Well thats fine, but then lets not pretend that its just BJJ anymore.

Your premise that doing Judo could hinder a grappling transition to mma is idiotic. If you had that intention you would adapt your training of Judo accordingly.
Let me reiterate to you. Wrestling DOES NOT replace Judo at all. They are different systems with different mechanics that have benefits. See that recent reversal Fedor did on Sonnen into a throw? Unique Judo mechanics in action that wrestling could never give you. Just because college wrestling is the dominant form of grappling in the US and mma in the US is done without a gi, does not mean wrestling replaces Judo.

The question was about traditional gi BJJ with sport rules vs Judo.
Now you have totally changed the dicussion to include no gi. As you mention everything changes, then add wrestling grips and takedowns its not BJJ anymore it is a hybrid art.
If were going to compare like that then why not we just compare with Judo and Sambo as well, as it is a Judo derivative art mixed with wrestling. Most Judo guys in Russua also train sambo.

So basically your points revolve simply on the fact that BJJ in the US is much more associated with mma and has adapted itself to this end.
In Russia the same opporrunites exist for Judo and sambo to adapt to mma.

If we had no-gi Judo what would it be like? Two different but related sports. We can compare to when Karo Parisyan put the beating on Nick Diaz as the most direct comparison of Judo vs BJJ in mma I can think of. Parisyan adapted his Judo to mma just fine and as expected controlled the fight due to his far superior body control. Whstever edge Nick may have had in submissions Karo had trained to a level to neutralize.
The diffetence is there are institutions to adapt BJJ to mma but far less in Judo. This doesnt stop a dedicated Judoka adapting to mma with success if he wants to.

So if we return now to my premise, pure sport BJJ blackbelt (with gi) VS pure Judo blackbelt, the Judo guy has a FAR easier transition. If they want to cross train different styles after blackbelt level theres nothing to stop the Judoka doing no gi submission grappling or catch. We're talking as a BASE. And as a base, having superior balance, body control, standing grappling and throws and takedown defence and familiarity with groundgame is far superior to being a ground grappling expert who cant take it to the ground or stay standing if he wants.
The expanded opportunitues for doing BJJ no gi or combined with wrestling takedowns etc can easily be done by Judokas also if there is a desire.

Let me tell you in very few words why youre wrong.
Judo uses gi grips. In MMA you dont.
Sport bjj still has single and double legs. Sport judo dont.
Sport judo ground game is focused on quick scrambles and submissions. In MMA you can fight on the ground for 5 minutes.
Getting flat on your stomach is good in judo, but is a death sin in MMA.
Winning by Ippon is the goal in judo, happens very very rarely in MMA.
Overall BJJ is a more well rounded system, and spsome sport guys play a top game. You dont have to pull guard. If the goal is MMA, just play a good top game with passing and control, and a bottom game focused on standing up or sweeping.

 

[Seefoo]

Actually YOU ARE talking about a form of cross training. You are talking about hybridizing of tradititional BJJ into a mixed grappling art incorporating different elements of what works to an 'open lab'. Well thats fine, but then lets not pretend that its just BJJ anymore.

Except that's exactly what Bjj has always been. Bjj has always been about absorbing outside martial arts into the core system and making the system as a whole better. Your warped view of what "traditional" or "pure" BJJ is or isn't is irrelevant. The salient point here is if you have a kid who has aspirations to do MMA and he or she has to choose between a BJJ school or a Judo school, you'd have to be off your rocker to choose the Judo school. Like BJJRage said, there are actually BJJ schools structured to move you into MMA, and BJJ itself has no issue with its students utilizing BJJ training to gear towards MMA. Hell, there's even BJJ instructors who moonlight as MMA coaches or work in MMA gyms to supplement their income.

Judo (and especially the IJF) actively move Judo as far from MMA as possible.

Your premise that doing Judo could hinder a grappling transition to mma is idiotic. If you had that intention you would adapt your training of Judo accordingly.

Where would you adapt your training? You can't do it in the dojo. No-gi Judo competitions are extremely rare, much less practicing No-gi judo in a dojo. How many Judo instructors are well versed in leg-locks? How many Judo coaches are going to spend their time teaching an up and coming MMA prospect over olympic hopefuls? How many Judo coaches are going to be there to teach you a multitude of guards and escapes for extended newaza? So in short, you're going to be adapting your Judo on your own. In BJJ, the adaptations are already built into the cake.

Let me reiterate to you. Wrestling DOES NOT replace Judo at all. They are different systems with different mechanics that have benefits. See that recent reversal Fedor did on Sonnen into a throw? Unique Judo mechanics in action that wrestling could never give you. Just because college wrestling is the dominant form of grappling in the US and mma in the US is done without a gi, does not mean wrestling replaces Judo.

So now you're arguing that Judo is a better base for MMA than Wrestling? Seriously? You're also being silly if you think the only grappling Fedor knows is Judo. He has an extensive background in Sambo which incorporates a LOT of wrestling.

The question was about traditional gi BJJ with sport rules vs Judo.
Now you have totally changed the dicussion to include no gi. As you mention everything changes, then add wrestling grips and takedowns its not BJJ anymore it is a hybrid art.
If were going to compare like that then why not we just compare with Judo and Sambo as well, as it is a Judo derivative art mixed with wrestling. Most Judo guys in Russua also train sambo.

Uh, no gi BJJ isn't a new thing. No-gi BJJ has been around for decades, and its been around because BJJ has had a long history with NHB competition. Sambo and Judo are two completely different MAs. No-gi Bjj isn't a different MA than Gi-based Bjj.

So basically your points revolve simply on the fact that BJJ in the US is much more associated with mma and has adapted itself to this end.
In Russia the same opporrunites exist for Judo and sambo to adapt to mma.

Bjj has always been associated with MMA. The most prominent MMA organization in the world was partially created by the Gracie family.

If we had no-gi Judo what would it be like? Two different but related sports.
We can compare to when Karo Parisyan put the beating on Nick Diaz as the most direct comparison of Judo vs BJJ in mma I can think of. Parisyan adapted his Judo to mma just fine and as expected controlled the fight due to his far superior body control. Whstever edge Nick may have had in submissions Karo had trained to a level to neutralize.
The diffetence is there are institutions to adapt BJJ to mma but far less in Judo. This doesnt stop a dedicated Judoka adapting to mma with success if he wants to.

Parisyan wasn't pure Judo bro, which probably facilitated his no-gi Judo. He certainly didn't pick up No-gi Judo in a Judo dojo.

The issue is that Parisyan had to break down Judo on his own (or through cross-training) without a lot of support. Our hypothetical Bjj practitioner will get support from his gym and his instructors. There is an entire infrastructure in place to support him or her into MMA which simply does not exist in Judo.

So if we return now to my premise, pure sport BJJ blackbelt (with gi) VS pure Judo blackbelt, the Judo guy has a FAR easier transition.

Again, your premise is laughable. If someone's GOAL is to enter MMA, they're going to purposely focus on no-gi BJJ, and no-gi BJJ is still "pure sport BJJ" whether you like it or not.

 

[ShindoNinja]

For young kids I always suggest they start in Judo. They have time to refine a ground game later in life. You don't usually see the opposite where someone gets super good on the ground and then decides to learn take downs.