Better base for MMA - Judo or BJJ?

It's not that complicated. Judoka's aren't allowed to do basic wrestling moves anymore. And Judo dojos aren't gonna spend time working on them when they can't utilize them in competition. It would be a waste of time. Maybe there some that do that are scattered across the world, but there aren't a lot. Most bjj gyms incorporate some wrestling tho.

Im not bagging on the technical art of judo at all, but I think some judoka's get sucked into the bowing culture and the katas and some of the more ancient traditional styles of teaching, and they get an air of superiority
 
AnotherOldGuy said:
Size is part of fighting (and all contact sports). If they really were technically poor and out of shape every WW, MW and LHW would be trying to fight at HW, because its easier to beat a technically poor and out of shape HW than a technically good and in shape WW, MW or LHW.

Lot's of people expect Jones to beat everyone at HW - however Jones himself doesn't. If he did he wouldn't go thru the torture of a week long water cut to make LHW ... something no one does unless they have to. I assume Jones has a pretty good sense of how he'd do against HW's, and so far his conclusion has been that his chances of losing are considerably higher at HW than at LHW (in fact so much higher that he's willing to dehydrate for 20+ pounds to avoid fighting HW's).
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For what it’s worth I think if Jon Jones hadn’t been suspended he would have already moved up. Also I’m talking about the weight class as a whole. How many fat 170 pound fighters have you seen? They are pretty rare. That’s because you can’t get away with it at that weight. How many fat hw have you seen? Yes weight classes are there for a reason, no one is denying that. However as a rule they are less technical, less athletic fighters.
 
yetanother said:
There are plenty of undersized HW's who could dehydrate and diet down to lighter weight classes.
In BJJ plenty of people go up. This year I grappled guys who had low level MMA fights at HW (one black belt who he had to cut down to HW because he was too fat) and tapped them.
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Well, Fedor, DC and Randy Couture are obvious examples of guys who with normal athletic 12% body fat would weigh in under 205. But most undersized HW's would still be above 205 if they had normal athletic body fat and didn't dehydrate.

Against that you have huge numbers of LHW's and MW's who have normal athletic body fat (Jones, Gus, Anderson, Franklin etc) and who have to dehydrate to get under 205. Why do they bother if the HW division is the weakest? Basically you're saying that these guys torture themselves to get away from an easier division - think about it.
 
Mr Rick said:
For what it’s worth I think if Jon Jones hadn’t been suspended he would have already moved up. Also I’m talking about the weight class as a whole. How many fat 170 pound fighters have you seen? They are pretty rare. That’s because you can’t get away with it at that weight. How many fat hw have you seen? Yes weight classes are there for a reason, no one is denying that. However as a rule they are less technical, less athletic fighters.
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Jones might have, though its pretty interesting he waited so long to begin with. He works out with HW's all the time, if he'd noticed that they were easier to beat than LHW's you'd expect him to have simply stopped dehydrating years ago.

Less athletic probably - the biggest and most important component of athleticism is coordination, and extremely coordinated big guys make much better money in the team sports. Less technical isn't so clear cut - what is a good technique for a HW is different than for a LW. If HW's were significantly less technical than LHW's, then it'd be like Royce in the first UFC all over again (or any of the pro's vs Joe's shows) - the smaller more technical guys would win easily.

This is pretty common in wrestling. Big high school wrestlers when they start college wrestling are tied into knots by much smaller senior wrestlers because of the technical gap. After a year or two when the big guys technical skills improve they easily beat the smaller guys. But those big guys never look like expanded small guys - their technical skills are the ones appropriate for big guys (different strength/weight ratio because weight goes up as a cube while strength only goes up as a square - volume vs cross sectional area).
 
AnotherOldGuy said:
Jones might have, though its pretty interesting he waited so long to begin with. He works out with HW's all the time, if he'd noticed that they were easier to beat than LHW's you'd expect him to have simply stopped dehydrating years ago.

Less athletic probably - the biggest and most important component of athleticism is coordination, and extremely coordinated big guys make much better money in the team sports. Less technical isn't so clear cut - what is a good technique for a HW is different than for a LW. If HW's were significantly less technical than LHW's, then it'd be like Royce in the first UFC all over again (or any of the pro's vs Joe's shows) - the smaller more technical guys would win easily.

This is pretty common in wrestling. Big high school wrestlers when they start college wrestling are tied into knots by much smaller senior wrestlers because of the technical gap. After a year or two when the big guys technical skills improve they easily beat the smaller guys. But those big guys never look like expanded small guys - their technical skills are the ones appropriate for big guys (different strength/weight ratio because weight goes up as a cube while strength only goes up as a square - volume vs cross sectional area).
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I think we think along the same lines it’s just where the slider falls on the continuum. Enjoyable debate though!<mma4>
 
Definitely bjj. At this point everyone from white belt newbies to adcc champs realize that bjj is lacking in the td and tdd defense. So the community is rapidly starting to incorporate wrestling into the art. Ultimately, bjj will be a complete art.
 
Watching the double Gracie submission victories in Bellator this weekend pretty much answers this thread's question.
 
Bjj is better and its really not even up for debate. Judo is only a good base for judo; especially in an mma context.
 
BJJ all day.... especially MMA based. If judo would help fighters they would train it in a heart beat
 
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