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BETA Academy owner explains ending relationship with Lloyd Irvin

I'm buying that LI is a shady business man (no doubt about it), but I'm thinking Nak didn't mind it as much as he's claiming. That's all.

If Nak had a change of heart, should everyone automatically forgive him for being an LI schill for years? Shouldn't we reserve judgment on him until he proves he's a changed man? He apologized for misleading people and swindling people out of their hard earned money, so obviously he knows he fucked up.

Its easy to jump ship now (when iLI is getting buried by the martial arts community), but it would have meant more if he left when it wasn't so convenient (like when Ryan Hall left).

I agree with all that, seeing Nak sell the snake oil as well he didn't seem to mind at all, but he did write the letter, perhaps the recent events did give him a reason to look in the mirror. He is singing a different tune only time will tell if he means it. Perhaps other shaddy people will take an opportunity to change as well.

And yes Ari, or better yet Segal jumping into this discussion would make martial arts internet explode.
 
It's easy to say I'm sorry for taking your money and that's it.

But it's a lot harder to say I'm sorry and to GIVE ALL THE MONEY back. How about the interest too?

The Tax Collector in the Bible gave back like 3x what he stole to his victims.

Wow, now you really sound like Vicki Irvin.
 
The only thing that I can think of that an established coach like Irvin can have a hold on anyone who's newish and in the process of opening up a gym would be his ability to prevent his higher students from helping to teaching at there new gym and his name.

10 years ago, there weren't many BJJ black belts around. But there were some browns and plenty of purples and a ton of blues. Like the Korean guy who opened up Crazy 88, a TLI affiliate, when he was only a new purple belt....he probably needed some help to make his gym look more legit. Under TLI's banner + maybe some visiting TLI instructors, etc.

But Nakapan was a good MT fighter and at least a brown belt at the time he joined TLI. I know he was around purple in 2000-ish and so was Moses (in BJJ) while at Yamasaki. What the heck could Irvin do to him? He wasn't some rookie who wanted to open an MMA gym and had to rely elsewhere for instructors. He was already a decently accomplished fighter in MMA, MT and BJJ. Think he even got his Black Belt under Pedro Sauer before he opened up Beta. Moses started Evolve while a brown in BJJ I think.

I don't know Nakapan that well, but everyone I know that knows him, always considers him a very nice guy though. But that letter was damn vicious.

Agreed, that's why I don't think someone like Nak is as credible as Ryan Hall in this situation.
 
Where did I say he is not legit?
I said that the way he run his business could have been different if he trained under a bb.
He gets the ire of the BJJ community because he run it a different way. People don't like changes and will critise things that they don't understand.
I did not even say he is not a good teacher and does not have good results.
 
I think most people have a problem with how he creates levels of "membership" in the TLI affiliation. You have the mastermind members paying exorbitant fees who are all upselling other gym owners to higher and higher payment levels. His seminars promise information that he never divulges. He just uses the seminars to make the attendees buy more products. "Here's some information but here's even more information if you buy this DVD set. I'll give you more than that if you come to my next seminar." That sort of thing.

Also, junk like the players' seminar in Vegas. All I can think of is the Chappelle's Show playa hatas ball.


It's the Lloyd Irvin name. That's the key. Irving produces UFC champions and contenders. This is HUGE for anyone wanting to open up an MMA gym. Just like how Gracie was when UFC first came out.

Other than this significant piece, I don't see much else other than just running your gym like any other gym. You can buy a book and learn how. Or just train at any gym for 2-5 years. Most students who pops up their own gyms have gone this route too. Or maybe Irvin's club is some Multi-Marketing scheme, which is not illegal...just annoying as fuck.

If Irvin did swindle Nak in such a way......it's damn incredible that someone who's got an MBA and a CPA license can't figure out such INFORMATION WITHHOLDING or some bullshit, after the paying some Swindler yearly dues for 10 FUCKING YEARS STRAIGHT or MORE? Maybe 1 or 2 years of dues paid, maybe.....but TEN? C'mon, this is crazy. To be a CPA is hard as shit. My uncle spent 20 years as a working accountant and couldn't pass the CPA exam after 3 tries. He gave up and got a PhD in some bullshit to look presentable next to his M.D. wife, because he couldn't be a CPA.
 
Let discuss the referral strategies.
Ask your paying customers to name as many referral possible. Meaning friends that could be interested to train. Then the instructor tell them to tell their friends to expect a sales call from him. Instructor makes a call to attempt to get another customer.
There a round wheel at the gym with different prices.
The paying customers get a spin of the wheel for every name he dropped to the instructor.
Some people would think it is genius and some would think it is a douchebag move.
 
I was refering to the pyramid marketing schemes he employs.

Pyramid schemes are illegal. You can call the cops on him. Nak easily could of. He's already swimming in a tidal wave of shit right now. No way would him running a pyramid scheme for the past 15+ years not have been heard all over the news by now due to the rape controversies.

He probably does some Multi-Level Marketing scheme. Not illegal. Just annoying. Charging fees, etc. It's his name that he's selling. Not a big deal to me. His name was huge in the DC Area (before all of this rape problems). I don't see anything wrong with this nor illegal. Nakapan used Irvin's name to help build up Beta. Of course it's going to be expensive.
 
The interesting thing to note here is that this response to Nakapan speaking out is to be completely expected. It is also likely the reason that Ryan Hall kept quiet initially when he left Lloyd. You'd have to ask him, but I would guess it was a major factor.

When you leave an environment that has the kind of shady practices talked about in the statement, it is tough to speak out against those because you were an integral part of those just a few moments ago. As such, the pressure is to just keep your mouth shut because no one will really believe you anyway. I don't think you will see any more of these revealing statements from former associates at this point. I think you will still see more distancing, but it will be done quietly out of fear of this happening.

The reason why I am inclined to believe Nak's account is that giving such a detailed account is really not self-serving at all. Disassociating from Lloyd, even confirming that you are completely disassociated -- that is self-interest. But going into detail like this is not because it invites the type of response that Lloyd has delivered. Everyone can see that coming. And releasing it anyway despite knowing what is coming takes some guts and selflessness.

The points about Nak having no logical reason to be intimidated by Lloyd are solid. They are valid. And in hindsight, they are obvious. They are also exactly the reason why it's difficult to speak out in that way. It is embarrassing to admit that as a grown man, you were intimidated by a dude like Lloyd Irvin. It's not like he is a senator or something; he really does not have any kind of power or real world influence outside of the insignificant sphere of BJJ whatsoever.

Even though I have never been associated with Lloyd whatsoever, I can relate to being intimidated and the embarrassment of that in hindsight. I kept quiet about the rape case for years partly out a belief that Lloyd had probably grown and changed as a person since, but also partly out of fear that speaking up would cause a shitstorm and make a lot of dangerous enemies. I knew that others could have spoken out too, yet they stayed quiet. It just seemed like self-preservation to be quiet and let someone else do it. And when I did speak out, TLI did try to shut me down initially by sending messages to guys I know asking why I was starting all this trouble, etc. Obviously the idea was to get them to put pressure on me to be quiet so this all could blow over.

Clearly it didn't work. And although I was worried for a while initially, once I actually got to look a lot of these guys dead in the eyes at a tournament, I realized that they are just regular people like me. They are just defending their master because it is all they know how to do at this point. If they are going to change, it is going to have to come from within, not by me. And how obvious that is now in hindsight, and how silly I feel for ever being intimidated in the first place. Yet I was for a while there.

So in some ways I can understand where Nak is coming from with his statement and how he must have felt writing it. It would have been a lot easier for him to just separate from Lloyd and stick to his original story. It would have been a lot easier for Ryan Hall to just stay quiet and not write that letter. This whole Nak/Callos/Ryan/whoever conspiracy theory is ridiculous. They have no business relationship. If anything, they are business competitors.

I can also understand why people are skeptical of Nakapan's letter. It is to be expected. It is also why I do not think you will be seeing any more of these letters anytime soon. I do not think people are really going to be receptive to them no matter who it is.

As a final note, it's sad to realize that the strategy being used here against Nak is just a preview of the strategy that is going to be used against the rape victim in a couple of months. Just wait and see.
 
If Irvin did swindle Nak in such a way......it's damn incredible that someone who's got an MBA and a CPA license can't figure out such INFORMATION WITHHOLDING or some bullshit, after the paying some Swindler yearly dues for 10 FUCKING YEARS STRAIGHT or MORE? Maybe 1 or 2 years of dues paid, maybe.....but TEN?

BETA's only been open since 2008. Furthermore, Nak is only about 32 years old. He would have graduated at 21 or 22 and couldn't have gotten a masters until 24 at the earliest. So, at best, he's been a CPA for maybe eight years. And he's only been paying dues to LI for four years max.

Also, I see you've learned your copywriting skills from the Lloyd Irvin School of Superfluous Capitalization.
 
Wow, now you really sound like Vicki Irvin.

Who's Vicki Irvin?

Tell how what I'm saying is not logical?

Nak is apologizing for swindling people's money for many years now since his gym opened up, but how do empty words help his victims? You cheat people illegally and they call the cops and you get prosecuted....you usually have to pay it ALL back plus interests, penalties and fines....and maybe prison time.
 
I did not attend the mma millionaire seminar but I am pretty sure it was just a platform to sell another product. That software stuff.

It is like those millionaire seminar. They can turn you into millionaire. Just to find out that they want you to remortgage your house to buy an apartment in their future state of the thing building.
Needless to say they don't deliver much. Sometimes the business goes broke before they can cement the foundation. Over priced apartment with promised of guaranteed rent. Etc.,.
 
It's the Lloyd Irvin name. That's the key. Irving produces UFC champions and contenders. This is HUGE for anyone wanting to open up an MMA gym. Just like how Gracie was when UFC first came out.

Other than this significant piece, I don't see much else other than just running your gym like any other gym. You can buy a book and learn how. Or just train at any gym for 2-5 years. Most students who pops up their own gyms have gone this route too. Or maybe Irvin's club is some Multi-Marketing scheme, which is not illegal...just annoying as fuck.

If Irvin did swindle Nak in such a way......it's damn incredible that someone who's got an MBA and a CPA license can't figure out such INFORMATION WITHHOLDING or some bullshit, after the paying some Swindler yearly dues for 10 FUCKING YEARS STRAIGHT or MORE? Maybe 1 or 2 years of dues paid, maybe.....but TEN? C'mon, this is crazy. To be a CPA is hard as shit. My uncle spent 20 years as a working accountant and couldn't pass the CPA exam after 3 tries. He gave up and got a PhD in some bullshit to look presentable next to his M.D. wife, because he couldn't be a CPA.


I'm pretty sure that he wasn't a part of the pyramid scheme for 10 years (more like 2 or 3), but I do like your enthusiasm.
 
BETA's only been open since 2008. Furthermore, Nak is only about 32 years old. He would have graduated at 21 or 22 and couldn't have gotten a masters until 24 at the earliest. So, at best, he's been a CPA for maybe eight years. And he's only been paying dues to LI for four years max.

Also, I see you've learned your copywriting skills from the Lloyd Irvin School of Superfluous Capitalization.

+1 for the Superfluous Capitalization
 
Where did I say he is not legit?
I said that the way he run his business could have been different if he trained under a bb.
He gets the ire of the BJJ community because he run it a different way. People don't like changes and will critise things that they don't understand.
I did not even say he is not a good teacher and does not have good results.

Well a lot of the Brazilians who rode the waves of Gracie's domination in the first few UFC's, ran their schools very close to traditional MA schools, specifically the Japanese ones, as that's the root of BJJ and there's much Japanese influence & population in Brazil.

When MMA was coined as a term after 15 UFC's or so, dudes started training more in board shorts and t-shirts as opposed to gi's.

Irvin went this MMA route, plus he seemed to have adopted the box gym business model of pressure selling memberships.

Irvin just capitalized on his success as a proven producer of champion fighters and contenders. Most people would probably do this.
 
Let discuss the referral strategies.
Ask your paying customers to name as many referral possible. Meaning friends that could be interested to train. Then the instructor tell them to tell their friends to expect a sales call from him. Instructor makes a call to attempt to get another customer.
There a round wheel at the gym with different prices.
The paying customers get a spin of the wheel for every name he dropped to the instructor.
Some people would think it is genius and some would think it is a douchebag move.

Haha, this is "genius"?????? sounds like Sales & Marketing 101 to me. Man, it's just asking for referrals. Every numbnuts salesman is taught this.

Who likes sales calls at 7pm while they're eating dinner? But this ain't no capital crime and shit.

Insurance Agents, Mortgage Brokers, Loan Officers, Real Estate Agents, Cell Phone Carriers....and the dreaded, MLM (Amway, Herbal Life, and shit).....this is all standard procedure for all sales businesses as such.

I wouldn't pay Irvin $10 to teach me this, let alone years of fees totaling more than "$35,000" as Nak complained about.
 
Well a lot of the Brazilians who rode the waves of Gracie's domination in the first few UFC's, ran their schools very close to traditional MA schools, specifically the Japanese ones, as that's the root of BJJ and there's much Japanese influence & population in Brazil.

When MMA was coined as a term after 15 UFC's or so, dudes started training more in board shorts and t-shirts as opposed to gi's.

Irvin went this MMA route, plus he seemed to have adopted the box gym business model of pressure selling memberships.

Irvin just capitalized on his success as a proven producer of champion fighters and contenders. Most people would probably do this.

One thing I like about li. He loves the gi.
Now I don't even think he has not even started on mma on 100% as yet.
 
The interesting thing to note here is that this response to Nakapan speaking out is to be completely expected. It is also likely the reason that Ryan Hall kept quiet initially when he left Lloyd. You'd have to ask him, but I would guess it was a major factor.

It would have been more plausible if Nakapan gave some CLEAR examples as to how Irvin and himself were "swindling" people out of their money all of these years.
 
Great post Balto. Its a shame that more people probably won't speak out now but it's pretty expected for both sides to sling mud in trying to clear them self but only get each other dirtier and dirtier.

Also agree that the defense attorneys will attack the character of the rape victim. It will get ugly, no doubt.
 
It would have been more plausible if Nakapan gave some CLEAR examples as to how Irvin and himself were "swindling" people out of their money all of these years.

I'm sure LI made Nakapan sign a non-disclosure agreement (NDA).
 
I'm pretty sure that he wasn't a part of the pyramid scheme for 10 years (more like 2 or 3), but I do like your enthusiasm.

Ok, so he admittedly swindled money from people for 2 or 3 years, you feel better now bro?

Nakapan certainly was at Moses' gym for many years before he started Beta, so I'm sure he swindled money there too don't you think?
 
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