Best UFC HW from 2000-2008

[BowserJr]

He never lost to Rizzo. Their first fight was close but Randy on points all the way. Not to mention, if you want to go the "arguably" route, then Randy arguably should've gotten the win with a first-round TKO from that vicious GNP assault he opened with. And then you also have to factor in Randy being an undersized HW. It makes what he was able to do and who he was able to beat that much more impressive. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure he ever weighed over 230 in HW competition, regularly competing between 220-230 and giving away 15+ pounds to his opponents.



Arlovski would've been a stylistic nightmare for Randy, basically a bigger and stronger Chuck. Arlovski had lots of height on Randy, 20 pounds of lean muscle, incredible quickness, and humungous power, plus in his prime he developed excellent TDD. Randy might get to a couple of clinches and push him to the fence, but I don't see him getting Arlovski down, and on the feet, it'd only be a matter of time before Arlovski found his chin with a bomb.

As for Mir, I think that Randy could've taken him. He was quicker, more athletic, and in better shape. I think he could've outworked Mir on the feet and in the clinch. If they went to the ground, Randy'd need to be extremely careful, because Mir can snatch a submission on literally anyone, but I could've seen Randy Gonzagaing Mir, just getting in his face, tiring him out, and then putting him away after a few rounds.



No way Fedor stops his TDs - he seriously made Randy look like he'd never wrestled before, which nobody else in the history of MMA, not even Kevin Randleman or Mike Van Arsdale, can boast - and Ricco's grappling was beyond Fedor getting an easy armbar off his back. Especially under UFC rules with Ricco being able to use elbows, Fedor would've had his work cut out for him, whereas under PRIDE rules he would've stood a better chance surviving off of his back and getting stand-ups and more opportunities to knock Ricco out on the feet. Because Fedor's Fedor, I'd pick him finding a way to knock Ricco out on his feet, but that's the only way I see him winning, and imagining Ricco repeatedly and aggressively taking Fedor down and beating him up from on top is not all that difficult. That's how good Ricco was, particularly against Randy at UFC 39.



Under PRIDE rules, the decision makes sense, as Ricco wasn't actually doing anything on top. This is why I specified UFC rules: Ricco trained with Tito and he fought like Tito, with elbows being essential to his GNP arsenal. Ricco fighting in PRIDE without being able to elbow to the head on the ground is like when Fedor fought in RINGS and couldn't punch to the head on the ground: You've got these guys essentially fighting with an arm tied behind their back.

I agree with your takes on AA and Mir for the most part but I do think Mir had better bjj than Gonzaga.

As far as Randy v Rizzo. They were both similar in size. Rizzo was not a big HW and agree to disagree on their 1st bout.

For sure cage and ufc rules wpuld favor ricco vs fedor. The cage is a huge weapon for wrestlers who are used to the cage. Fedor had great balance and could explode or jump out of take down attempts but that's not possible in a cage. Also gnp elbows would add up tko cut stoppage losses for fedor and his soft skin.

In a ring I think Fedor beats prime Ricco but it would be fun and interesting

 

[BowserJr]

I think career wise its Barnett and Werdum but neither of them fought a massive amount in the UFC during that era and you could argue may not have been at their peaks when they did. Barnett I think became a better striker afterwards and Werdum was just starting his Chute Boxe time in 2008.

Actual peak in the cage in the UFC I suspect it may have been Arlovski during his title run, his earlier UFC run pre Roach he was not nearly as good a boxer.

Barnett became UFC champ in that era by destroying Randy and he went on to go 1-1 with Nog.... after the era I stated he also beat Mir and AA who were from that era.

I left out Werdum (and Reem) cuz they came in at the end of that era so they weren't in their primes at all until maybe the last year and that's not long enough IMO.

They're more part of the next era with Cain, JDS, Gonzaga, Carwin, Brock... and stipe came at the end of that era so I don't really count him in that one either

 

[Lord Pyjamas]

To many this time frame was the golden era of HW MMA overall as it was filled with fighters across orgs had high level grapplers and strikers as well as fighters who were highly skilled all around.

Of this era who was the best HW to come out of the UFC? Meaning which HW was the best that originally made their name in UFC?

Below is the list of the guys that were at the top at one time or another. Some had a short stint on top but we're absolute beasts while there. Some hung around at the top through most of the era.

So there could be 2 answers.
Who was the best at their absolute peak?
And who was best overall for the era?

Josh Barnett
Andre Arlovski
Frank Mir
Randy Couture
Tim Sylvia
Ricco Rodriguez
Pedro Rizzo

If Frank Mir had not motocrashed himself to pieces he would be an easy choice.

 

[joy2day]

This is a genuinely hard one because they all cancel each other out. No one is dominant. Every choice has notable weaknesses in relation to certain others.

Roids are a big issue:
1) Timmy came up positive after he wrecked Ricco, many forget that.

2) Barnett has popped 3000 times or so.

3) There are many rumblings that Randy could not have been "the natural" in winning the HW championship at 46.

 

[TR1]

This is a genuinely hard one because they all cancel each other out. No one is dominant. Every choice has notable weaknesses in relation to certain others.

Roids are a big issue:
1) Timmy came up positive after he wrecked Ricco, many forget that.

2) Barnett has popped 3000 times or so.

3) There are many rumblings that Randy could not have been "the natural" in winning the HW championship at 46.

True, but that really applies to basically every single UFC HW champ back then. Particularly funny since people talk about PRIDE and steroids, but I digress.....

In addition to what you said:

-Earlier champs (Coleman and Randleman) were juiced....Mark has all but admitted it on Facebook (respect to him for that, while others like Barnett and Overeem act like snakes on the subject).

-AA's body.....I mean.....I like the guy but sus to put it mildly.

-Mir didn't look overly suspicious until well later into his career (and did not develop a taste for kangaroo meat untill much later), so that one is in the open.

Were there ever substantiated suspicions about Ricco?

 

[BowserJr]

True, but that really applies to basically every single UFC HW champ back then. Particularly funny since people talk about PRIDE and steroids, but I digress.....

In addition to what you said:

-Earlier champs (Coleman and Randleman) were juiced....Mark has all but admitted it on Facebook (respect to him for that, while others like Barnett and Overeem act like snakes on the subject).

-AA's body.....I mean.....I like the guy but sus to put it mildly.

-Mir didn't look overly suspicious until well later into his career (and did not develop a taste for kangaroo meat untill much later), so that one is in the open.

Were there ever substantiated suspicions about Ricco?

Yo I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand the facts that you lay out in your sig about Stipe and Jones

 

[joy2day]

True, but that really applies to basically every single UFC HW champ back then. Particularly funny since people talk about PRIDE and steroids, but I digress.....

In addition to what you said:

-Earlier champs (Coleman and Randleman) were juiced....Mark has all but admitted it on Facebook (respect to him for that, while others like Barnett and Overeem act like snakes on the subject).

-AA's body.....I mean.....I like the guy but sus to put it mildly.

-Mir didn't look overly suspicious until well later into his career (and did not develop a taste for kangaroo meat untill much later), so that one is in the open.

Were there ever substantiated suspicions about Ricco?

I don't believe Ricco ever tested positive; it was his big complaint that Timmy was massively roided when he lost the title to him (which was validated). Ricco basically gave up MMA for cheeseburgers if I remember right (got fat).

 

[Bullitt68]

I agree with your takes on AA and Mir for the most part but I do think Mir had better bjj than Gonzaga.

Agreed, but Gonzaga's BJJ didn't factor into his loss to Randy. Randy beat him up on the feet with his clinch work and dirty boxing. That's also how Mir got beat up by Shane Carwin and Josh Barnett. If Randy fought Mir the way that he fought Gonzaga, his BJJ wouldn't have played a factor, he just would've been getting punched and pushed around in close by Randy until he gassed.

As far as Randy v Rizzo. They were both similar in size. Rizzo was not a big HW and agree to disagree on their 1st bout

Rizzo had 10-15 pounds on Randy. Randy usually weighed in around 220-225, Rizzo usually weighed in around 235-240. Not as extreme as Randy fighting Brock, but he was always the smaller man at HW, which gives him bonus bad ass points for being the three-time HW champ with three defenses.

Barnett became UFC champ in that era by destroying Randy

He didn't destroy Randy. Ricco destroyed Randy. Barnett spent two rounds trying to fend Randy off and couldn't, and while he gave him fits off of his back, he was still struggling to impose his own game on Randy until the third round, which is when he reversed him from the bottom, got on top, and got the ref stoppage. It was a pretty quick turn of the tables, not a prolonged destruction like what Ricco was able to do.

Roids are a big issue:
1) Timmy came up positive after he wrecked Ricco, many forget that.

2) Barnett has popped 3000 times or so.

3) There are many rumblings that Randy could not have been "the natural" in winning the HW championship at 46.

Regarding the first point, are you sure that Sylvia popped after Ricco? He infamously popped after defending his belt against Gan McGee at UFC 44, but at that time there was no real protocol, so Tim voluntarily gave up his belt in a gesture of sportsmanship and fair play, which is why at UFC 48 when he fought Frank Mir it was for the vacant HW title. But I'm not remembering him popping twice back then, and Google is giving me nothing.

Regarding the third point, Randy was pretty open about what he was doing while competing to boost his testosterone, something called resveratrol and working with doctors on his "XCAP" supplement stuff (https://xtremecouture.wordpress.com/2009/06/10/xtreme-couture-athletic-pharmaceuticals-xcap/). Maybe he was taking shit that was legal back then but that would show up on "no-no" lists later, but I don't recall him ever running afoul of any testing that was in place while he was fighting.

I don't believe Ricco ever tested positive; it was his big complaint that Timmy was massively roided when he lost the title to him (which was validated). Ricco basically gave up MMA for cheeseburgers if I remember right (got fat).

Yeah, Ricco's discipline was always his biggest issue. He loved to party when he was young and he'd drink and eat like he wasn't a pro athlete. (The infamous segment of Mark Kerr's The Smashing Machine when Mark asks Bas Rutten to teach Ricco a lesson is a case in point.) Then after his short-lived stay atop the UFC HW division, he ballooned back up again and spent the rest of his career in different stages of fatness, never again reaching that peak form of being lean and strong and in great condition at 243 pounds that we saw at UFC 39. Too bad. Another case of wasted talent, though he at least had a period of time when he wasn't wasting it and when he actually maximized it, and we saw what he was able to achieve when he was totally dialed-in.

 

[joy2day]

Regarding the first point, are you sure that Sylvia popped after Ricco? He infamously popped after defending his belt against Gan McGee at UFC 44, but at that time there was no real protocol, so Tim voluntarily gave up his belt in a gesture of sportsmanship and fair play, which is why at UFC 48 when he fought Frank Mir it was for the vacant HW title. But I'm not remembering him popping twice back then, and Google is giving me nothing.

Regarding the third point, Randy was pretty open about what he was doing while competing to boost his testosterone, something called resveratrol and working with doctors on his "XCAP" supplement stuff (https://xtremecouture.wordpress.com/2009/06/10/xtreme-couture-athletic-pharmaceuticals-xcap/). Maybe he was taking shit that was legal back then but that would show up on "no-no" lists later, but I don't recall him ever running afoul of any testing that was in place while he was fighting.

Yes, you are right- what I was remembering was Ricco's complaints about Tim's roid usage and claims that it affected the Ricco fight (the Gan fight was the same year several months later). I also remember Tim saying he did it to look shredded like the other guys on UFC posters (lie). Tim probably was roided massively when he fought Ricco; many forget that Sylvia looked like a monster at one time early on. He wasn't considered a joke like he would be later.

Randy never popped, it's just been the subject of a lot of discussion because his title as a 46-year-old seems pretty improbable, especially when a lot of others were juicing.

Yeah, Ricco's discipline was always his biggest issue. He loved to party when he was young and he'd drink and eat like he wasn't a pro athlete. (The infamous segment of Mark Kerr's The Smashing Machine when Mark asks Bas Rutten to teach Ricco a lesson is a case in point.) Then after his short-lived stay atop the UFC HW division, he ballooned back up again and spent the rest of his career in different stages of fatness, never again reaching that peak form of being lean and strong and in great condition at 243 pounds that we saw at UFC 39. Too bad. Another case of wasted talent, though he at least had a period of time when he wasn't wasting it and when he actually maximized it, and we saw what he was able to achieve when he was totally dialed-in.

Good points. I remember him being chubby in Pride; he never did look fit like he did against Randy.

 

[linvillegorge]

If Arlovski had a better chin he might be the HW GOAT. Then again, some of the shots he would walk into probably might've given prime Mark Hunt some issues. I guess when you combine iffy chin with porous D and sometimes reckless offense that's what happens.

 

[Bullitt68]

Yes, you are right- what I was remembering was Ricco's complaints about Tim's roid usage and claims that it affected the Ricco fight (the Gan fight was the same year several months later).

I know more about MMA history than most, but I'm getting older and a lot of this shit was decades ago now, so I'm always open to the possibility that my old ass is forgetting shit

I also remember Tim saying he did it to look shredded like the other guys on UFC posters (lie). Tim probably was roided massively when he fought Ricco; many forget that Sylvia looked like a monster at one time early on. He wasn't considered a joke like he would be later.

This was the thing at the time, and everyone believed it, and for good reason. Even Rogan brought it up on the air at the time and talked about how it made sense. Tim didn't have "the look," he was just a flabby, awkward oaf. But on roids, he was shredded and he did have the look. Gym rats take roids to look good, not because they have a powerlifting meet or a strongman show coming up. Tim was just a regular guy in that sense: He wanted to look good fighting with his shirt off for a living. But roids or no, he was still knocking people out and collecting belts and defenses. It didn't change his style or skill. It just changed his body dramatically.

Randy never popped, it's just been the subject of a lot of discussion because his title as a 46-year-old seems pretty improbable, especially when a lot of others were juicing.

Meh, I don't speculate like that. If it wasn't illegal, I don't care, and if you don't pop, I don't care. Randy was also always training hard, doing the Eco challenge in his 40s, eating and living clean. I have no difficulties imagining him looking and performing the way he did through his career. He never had a Vitor or Overeem "WTF?" turn at any point. He pretty much looked exactly the same his entire career, he weighed the same his entire career. Any speculation is just that.

Good points. I remember him being chubby in Pride; he never did look fit like he did against Randy.

Yep, without Tito steering the ship, Ricco was all over the place. He also never popped for roids but IIRC he popped for cocaine like four times in the 2000s. He was just a party animal who had a lot of natural talent but who lacked the discipline to be an elite athlete.

 

[BowserJr]

Agreed, but Gonzaga's BJJ didn't factor into his loss to Randy. Randy beat him up on the feet with his clinch work and dirty boxing. That's also how Mir got beat up by Shane Carwin and Josh Barnett. If Randy fought Mir the way that he fought Gonzaga, his BJJ wouldn't have played a factor, he just would've been getting punched and pushed around in close by Randy until he gassed.

I think Randy may have been afraid of going to the ground vs Mir like he did with Nog and imo Mir has better stand up. Gonzaga bjj was not a factor cuz randy didn't fear it

He didn't destroy Randy. Ricco destroyed Randy. Barnett spent two rounds trying to fend Randy off and couldn't, and while he gave him fits off of his back, he was still struggling to impose his own game on Randy until the third round, which is when he reversed him from the bottom, got on top, and got the ref stoppage. It was a pretty quick turn of the tables, not a prolonged destruction like what Ricco was able to do.

I didn't remember the fight other tham the finish, So I rewatched it. Randy did comfortably win round 1. Josh was able to defend everything pretty effectively other than the takedown.

Finish was round 2. Josh reversed him a little past half way. While josh was able to neutralize most of Randy's top game offense Randy had absolutely no answer when the roles reversed and he got decimated by gnp.

 

[Bullitt68]

I think Randy may have been afraid of going to the ground vs Mir like he did with Nog and imo Mir has better stand up. Gonzaga bjj was not a factor cuz randy didn't fear it

"Fear" isn't the right word. By the time he was UFC HW champ, Randy could hang on the ground with the best. Even Nog couldn't tap him by that point in his career. He was long past getting subbed by Valentijn Overeem. The point is that, strategically, he knew his clearest path to victory against Gonzaga was to work the clinch. On the outside, Gonzaga had big power in his hands and feet. In tight on the ground, Gonzaga had world class BJJ. But in close on the feet, Randy had the Greco, he could push him around and make him work to tire him out, he could dirty box him and beat him up, and he could use TDs to mix things up from the feet to the ground. And that's exactly what he did and it worked to perfection. If he fought the same way against Mir, I think the result would be the same.

I didn't remember the fight other tham the finish, So I rewatched it. Randy did comfortably win round 1. Josh was able to defend everything pretty effectively other than the takedown.

Finish was round 2. Josh reversed him a little past half way. While josh was able to neutralize most of Randy's top game offense Randy had absolutely no answer when the roles reversed and he got decimated by gnp.

Again, you're being hyperbolic. Barnett didn't "destroy" Randy and Randy wasn't "decimated" by Barnett's GNP. Barnett reversed him, Randy couldn't get out from the bottom, and Barnett got the stoppage. Randy wasn't even bleeding from what I remember, just a few bruises on his forehead. Compare that to what Ricco did to Randy at UFC 39, busting him up and forcing a verbal submission after he broke his eye socket after three rounds of violent GNP. From what I recall, BJM stopped the fight with Barnett because Randy wasn't moving, not because he was getting hurt. And after the fight, Randy was up and smiling, raising Barnett's hand and putting the belt on him. Honestly, BJM probably could've let the fight go, Randy could've lost a 10-8 round, and he would've been fine trying again in Round 3. Against Ricco, meanwhile, he quit and couldn't make it to the cards because Ricco fucked him up so badly.

 

[joy2day]

This was the thing at the time, and everyone believed it, and for good reason. Even Rogan brought it up on the air at the time and talked about how it made sense. Tim didn't have "the look," he was just a flabby, awkward oaf. But on roids, he was shredded and he did have the look. Gym rats take roids to look good, not because they have a powerlifting meet or a strongman show coming up. Tim was just a regular guy in that sense: He wanted to look good fighting with his shirt off for a living. But roids or no, he was still knocking people out and collecting belts and defenses. It didn't change his style or skill. It just changed his body dramatically.

Yeah, people believed it, but I'm not so sure. I don't think he would have beaten Ricco like that without it; he looked like a monster in his fights in those days in a way he wouldn't later on. Everyone here on Sherdog was saying Randy had no chance; there was even a Sherdog article on the main page that said explicitly that Randy had "no chance." The difference may well have been the roids if you compare the Randy fight and the Ricco fight. Randy did a great job of strategizing, but I don't know that the same would have happened if he fought the jacked Tim that Ricco did.

 

[BowserJr]

"Fear" isn't the right word. By the time he was UFC HW champ, Randy could hang on the ground with the best. Even Nog couldn't tap him by that point in his career. He was long past getting subbed by Valentijn Overeem. The point is that, strategically, he knew his clearest path to victory against Gonzaga was to work the clinch. On the outside, Gonzaga had big power in his hands and feet. In tight on the ground, Gonzaga had world class BJJ. But in close on the feet, Randy had the Greco, he could push him around and make him work to tire him out, he could dirty box him and beat him up, and he could use TDs to mix things up from the feet to the ground. And that's exactly what he did and it worked to perfection. If he fought the same way against Mir, I think the result would be the same.



Again, you're being hyperbolic. Barnett didn't "destroy" Randy and Randy wasn't "decimated" by Barnett's GNP. Barnett reversed him, Randy couldn't get out from the bottom, and Barnett got the stoppage. Randy wasn't even bleeding from what I remember, just a few bruises on his forehead. Compare that to what Ricco did to Randy at UFC 39, busting him up and forcing a verbal submission after he broke his eye socket after three rounds of violent GNP. From what I recall, BJM stopped the fight with Barnett because Randy wasn't moving, not because he was getting hurt. And after the fight, Randy was up and smiling, raising Barnett's hand and putting the belt on him. Honestly, BJM probably could've let the fight go, Randy could've lost a 10-8 round, and he would've been fine trying again in Round 3. Against Ricco, meanwhile, he quit and couldn't make it to the cards because Ricco fucked him up so badly.

I dont think youre remembering it correctly. Randy was just getting beat down and not defending himself. Thats why it got stopped.... 3 rnds earlier than vs Ricco.

And I'm sure he got better sub defense later in his career but he still was afraid of Nogs bjj. He would not engage with him on the ground at all. Also Mir was pretty good in the clinch. Not as good as Randy but much better than Gonzaga and arguably better than Nog who didn't do bad at all in clinch with Randy

 

[Bullitt68]

Yeah, people believed it, but I'm not so sure. I don't think he would have beaten Ricco like that without it; he looked like a monster in his fights in those days in a way he wouldn't later on. Everyone here on Sherdog was saying Randy had no chance; there was even a Sherdog article on the main page that said explicitly that Randy had "no chance." The difference may well have been the roids if you compare the Randy fight and the Ricco fight. Randy did a great job of strategizing, but I don't know that the same would have happened if he fought the jacked Tim that Ricco did.

Fair enough. We're just two dudes with two opinions, and they're different opinions here. For my part, I think that the difference between Ricco/Tim and Randy/Tim is that Ricco had no real striking. He developed a wicked flying knee, which he used to perfection on Jeff Monson, but that wasn't going to work against someone half a foot taller than him. Ricco had no way to get in on Tim, he was forced to shoot from the outside, and Tim sprawled-and-brawled him perfectly because he didn't have to worry about his striking, he just waited for him to shoot, stuffed the shots when they came, and waited to land a bomb. But Randy by the time he fought Tim had years of striking under his belt, having trained with Maurice Smith before fighting Chuck at UFC 43 and then training with Arlovski before fighting Tim. Randy was able to throw punches and kicks on the outside - and he dropped Tim within the first ten seconds, which forced him to respect Randy's striking - and then mix in clinches and TDs. Randy made for a much tougher opponent, whereas Ricco was an easier stylistic match-up.

I dont think youre remembering it correctly.

I am. I also just rewatched it on YouTube. I'm good.

Randy was just getting beat down and not defending himself. Thats why it got stopped.... 3 rnds earlier than vs Ricco.

You mentioned rewatching Randy's fight with Barnett, you should also rewatch his fight with Ricco. They're not even remotely the same. Barnett was throwing punches from the top and Randy wasn't moving so BJM stepped in. Cut and dry, if not a bit premature given the weakness of the GNP and the fight being for a belt. But Randy was up immediately, he was smiling and joking. He wasn't actually hurt, he was never rocked or near being knocked out. Ricco literally broke Randy's face, Randy was on the ground for several minutes in agony after the fight, and then when he got up (and after he hugged and congratulated Ricco, because even in pain Randy's a gentleman and a sportsman) he left the cage right away, no joking, no post-fight interview. They're not even in the same universe. Barnett got the better of Randy that night, but Ricco beat the fuck out of Randy and outwrestled him and outfought him before he broke his face and made him quit. Very different fights.

And I'm sure he got better sub defense later in his career

Then you're clueless, because a guy who gets choked out by Valentijn Overeem in under a minute and armbarred by Enson Inoue in under two minutes doesn't survive for 30 seconds on the ground with a submission specialist like Nogueira. Throughout his career, Randy got much better on the ground, to the point where he could fight off a Vitor armbar and tap Mike Van Arsdale with an anaconda choke. Randy's submissions didn't evolve the way that Matt Hughes' did, he never actually became a submission grappler, but he knew his way around the ground MUCH better by 2009 than he did ten years prior. I can't believe anyone would doubt that.

Mir was pretty good in the clinch.

What are you basing this on? I provided examples of two fights where Mir was brutalized and finished in the clinch. What are some fights where he excelled in the clinch?

 

[BowserJr]

Then you're clueless, because a guy who gets choked out by Valentijn Overeem in under a minute and armbarred by Enson Inoue in under two minutes doesn't survive for 30 seconds on the ground with a submission specialist like Nogueira. Throughout his career, Randy got much better on the ground, to the point where he could fight off a Vitor armbar and tap Mike Van Arsdale with an anaconda choke. Randy's submissions didn't evolve the way that Matt Hughes' did, he never actually became a submission grappler, but he knew his way around the ground MUCH better by 2009 than he did ten years prior. I can't believe anyone would doubt that.

What are you on dude. I said I'm sure Randy had better sub defense later in his career. You then say I'm clueless and proceed to tell me that Randy had better sub defense later which is what I said.

Just cuz he had better sub defense doesn't mean he wants to stay on the ground with Nog. I just rewatched that one too and he made sure to stay away from the ground with Nog. When it went there he almost got subbed 2x.

Also The Josh fight was 2 rounds not 3 so you are remembering the Josh fight wrong.

 

[Bullitt68]

What are you on dude. I said I'm sure Randy had better sub defense later in his career. You then say I'm clueless and proceed to tell me that Randy had better sub defense later which is what I said.

Haha, I read that as "I'm not sure he got better sub defense later in his career." That one's totally my fault.

Just cuz he had better sub defense doesn't mean he wants to stay on the ground with Nog. I just rewatched that one too and he made sure to stay away from the ground with Nog. When it went there he almost got subbed 2x.

That was my point: Nog couldn't submit him in fifteen minutes whereas Valentijn and Enson combined didn't need half a round to submit him. Randy was WAY better on the ground by then.