Best Stand-up Systems

[BDragon221]

Alright so I'm in the process of getting back into the martial arts (I've been in and out of it since I was 9, mostly karate and some kung-fu) and I've been doing some research. What I've come up with so far, not surprisingly is that without an ability to fight from the ground, choke, submit, wrestle ect. your in trouble. I think thats been proven beyond a doubt and is the reason a lot people discredit purely stand-up systems like kung-fu. So I'm defiantly looking into BJJ and wrestling right now. What I'd like to get everyone's opinions on is this, all things being equal as far as comfort levels fighting on the ground, what are the most effective stand-up systems. Now a lot of people talk about Muy Thai being the best and most effective stand up system based on it's popularity in MMA. Here's my concern though just as a casual observer. It's popularity is based on it's usage in a sport which still has some rules and guidelines (no eye gouging, throat strikes, limb manipulation ect.). Now that doesn't mean I think it isn't effective in a real life situation, I'm just questioning the reason behind it's populrity. Also, don't think I'm knocking UFC or MMA as a sport I'm actually a fan, I'm just playing devils advocate here. The systems we see utilized in the UFC, Pride ect. have been deemed superior because of their effectiveness in what is still essentially a sports setting. My concern is that when your training in these settings your not worried about your opponent using any of those illegal moves, so your not preparing or conditioning for them and your not utilizing them yourself simply because the styles that use them aren't as popular in MMA. Even if your opponent does utilize any of those moves you expect to be able to submit him easily because you assume he's not going to be very good on the ground. I wonder if you guys think that this is dangerous conditioning, that it's limiting? Or are these stand-up styles truly the most effective in any situation. Thats basically my question, in a situation with absolutely no rules where both fighters are equally comfortable on the ground, where do you go from there? What stand-up systems do you guys think offer the best conditioning and preparedness for any situation?

 

[Centaur]

I know a lot of the the Filipino fighting systems like Kali and Kina muta (sp?) are very effective for "Street" or Self Defense Scenarios. Muay Thai is also effective, and also it's fairly simple so it has a quicker learning curve.

Anytime you incorporate gouging, headbutts and groin strikes into a "system" though it makes it almost impossible to spar at high intensity, where as with Muay Thai you can practice all the techniques and principals in a very realistic manner.

If you're serious about SDS check out Kali, JKD or other similar arts.

 

[NaughtyBoy]

El mejor yo digo que es - Sicario Sistem - ( ej. cartel del golfo, Los Zetas, La familia Michoacana, etc... )

 

[ECS123]

I know a lot of the the Filipino fighting systems like Kali and Kina muta (sp?) are very effective for "Street" or Self Defense Scenarios. Muay Thai is also effective, and also it's fairly simple so it has a quicker learning curve.

Anytime you incorporate gouging, headbutts and groin strikes into a "system" though it makes it almost impossible to spar at high intensity, where as with Muay Thai you can practice all the techniques and principals in a very realistic manner.

If you're serious about SDS check out Kali, JKD or other similar arts.

^ I think that is good advice. Most of the Filipino fighting systems have a very dynamic self defense related aspect, and incorporate utilitarian type weapons training. With that said, IMHO, Muay Thai, JKD, and anything similar to Enshin would certainly be worth looking into. You can adopt what is useful, and discard what is not.

:icon_chee

 

[Proteus900]

KRAV MAGA

You can't train to the highest levels without joining the Israeli Secret Service, but from what I've seen of it, it's the only one I know of the actively incorporates, the various illegal manuvers your talking about. If you look into more traditional stand up styles along with it I can see it turning someone into some kind of crippling machine.

It's also one of the only ones I know of that includes self defense against firearms.

 

[leftlegkicker]

Regarding "dirty" fighting (groin strikes, eye gouges, etc) vs. rules-based sport fighting, you'll generally hear opinions that lean towards one of two views. The first view says that realistic self-defense should let you use any techniques that will work, including those that are illegal in combative sports. Their argument is that such dirty tactics are the most effective. The second view says that sport-based training is more effective because "dirty" fighting techniques cannot be trained in a realistic manner (live, fully resisting partner), whereas sport-based techniques can spar realistically thereby allowing you to test to see if you moves will actually work.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between. A street effective style should advocate use of "illegal" techniques, but it also needs to have some kind of sparring. Even if you don't necessarily use all the dirty moves in sparring, it will help you understand things like distance, timing, evasion, and what it feels like to get hit.

Eye gouges and groin strikes are useless if you can't close the distance. If you can't hit somewith with a regular punch or kick in the face, leg, or body, you're not going to be able to hit them in the throat, eyes, groin, or other "illegal" areas.

 

[Lionidas]

Regarding "dirty" fighting (groin strikes, eye gouges, etc) vs. rules-based sport fighting, you'll generally hear opinions that lean towards one of two views. The first view says that realistic self-defense should let you use any techniques that will work, including those that are illegal in combative sports. Their argument is that such dirty tactics are the most effective. The second view says that sport-based training is more effective because "dirty" fighting techniques cannot be trained in a realistic manner (live, fully resisting partner), whereas sport-based techniques can spar realistically thereby allowing you to test to see if you moves will actually work.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between. A street effective style should advocate use of "illegal" techniques, but it also needs to have some kind of sparring. Even if you don't necessarily use all the dirty moves in sparring, it will help you understand things like distance, timing, evasion, and what it feels like to get hit.

Eye gouges and groin strikes are useless if you can't close the distance. If you can't hit somewith with a regular punch or kick in the face, leg, or body, you're not going to be able to hit them in the throat, eyes, groin, or other "illegal" areas.

10/10
Well said, couldn't agree more.

 

[Brooklyn]

El mejor yo digo que es - Sicario Sistem - ( ej. cartel del golfo, Los Zetas, La familia Michoacana, etc... )

Gangs.

Wtf?

 

[BDragon221]

Thanks for the info guys, some really good advice here I think I'll start looking into a few of these systems

 

[barnowl]

Regarding "dirty" fighting (groin strikes, eye gouges, etc) vs. rules-based sport fighting, you'll generally hear opinions that lean towards one of two views. The first view says that realistic self-defense should let you use any techniques that will work, including those that are illegal in combative sports. Their argument is that such dirty tactics are the most effective. The second view says that sport-based training is more effective because "dirty" fighting techniques cannot be trained in a realistic manner (live, fully resisting partner), whereas sport-based techniques can spar realistically thereby allowing you to test to see if you moves will actually work.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between. A street effective style should advocate use of "illegal" techniques, but it also needs to have some kind of sparring. Even if you don't necessarily use all the dirty moves in sparring, it will help you understand things like distance, timing, evasion, and what it feels like to get hit.

Eye gouges and groin strikes are useless if you can't close the distance. If you can't hit somewith with a regular punch or kick in the face, leg, or body, you're not going to be able to hit them in the throat, eyes, groin, or other "illegal" areas.

Pretty much bang on. The only correction I would have yes there are way s to practice most of the illegal moves if you take the time to purchase the right gear. For example hockey gloves + lacross or field hockey helmets let you practice eye gougin, headbutts, fish hooks of all sorts.

 

[Jaxx]

Alright so I'm in the process of getting back into the martial arts (I've been in and out of it since I was 9, mostly karate and some kung-fu) and I've been doing some research. What I've come up with so far, not surprisingly is that without an ability to fight from the ground, choke, submit, wrestle ect. your in trouble. I think thats been proven beyond a doubt and is the reason a lot people discredit purely stand-up systems like kung-fu. So I'm defiantly looking into BJJ and wrestling right now. What I'd like to get everyone's opinions on is this, all things being equal as far as comfort levels fighting on the ground, what are the most effective stand-up systems. Now a lot of people talk about Muy Thai being the best and most effective stand up system based on it's popularity in MMA. Here's my concern though just as a casual observer. It's popularity is based on it's usage in a sport which still has some rules and guidelines (no eye gouging, throat strikes, limb manipulation ect.). Now that doesn't mean I think it isn't effective in a real life situation, I'm just questioning the reason behind it's populrity. Also, don't think I'm knocking UFC or MMA as a sport I'm actually a fan, I'm just playing devils advocate here. The systems we see utilized in the UFC, Pride ect. have been deemed superior because of their effectiveness in what is still essentially a sports setting. My concern is that when your training in these settings your not worried about your opponent using any of those illegal moves, so your not preparing or conditioning for them and your not utilizing them yourself simply because the styles that use them aren't as popular in MMA. Even if your opponent does utilize any of those moves you expect to be able to submit him easily because you assume he's not going to be very good on the ground. I wonder if you guys think that this is dangerous conditioning, that it's limiting? Or are these stand-up styles truly the most effective in any situation. Thats basically my question, in a situation with absolutely no rules where both fighters are equally comfortable on the ground, where do you go from there? What stand-up systems do you guys think offer the best conditioning and preparedness for any situation?

1) Use paragraphs.

2) Carry a weapon.

 

[c0r1nth14n]

Regarding "dirty" fighting (groin strikes, eye gouges, etc) vs. rules-based sport fighting, you'll generally hear opinions that lean towards one of two views. The first view says that realistic self-defense should let you use any techniques that will work, including those that are illegal in combative sports. Their argument is that such dirty tactics are the most effective. The second view says that sport-based training is more effective because "dirty" fighting techniques cannot be trained in a realistic manner (live, fully resisting partner), whereas sport-based techniques can spar realistically thereby allowing you to test to see if you moves will actually work.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between. A street effective style should advocate use of "illegal" techniques, but it also needs to have some kind of sparring. Even if you don't necessarily use all the dirty moves in sparring, it will help you understand things like distance, timing, evasion, and what it feels like to get hit.

Eye gouges and groin strikes are useless if you can't close the distance. If you can't hit somewith with a regular punch or kick in the face, leg, or body, you're not going to be able to hit them in the throat, eyes, groin, or other "illegal" areas.

Very well said.

 

[Godhand13]

try Kyokushin. Elbows, headbutts and eye gouges are all incorporated, and you'll do some good sparring

 

[FadeIntoViolenc]

"Deadly techniques" are force multipliers of already existing skills, technique and power.

They are NOT a replacement for fundamental, core techniques.

If you can't even hit someone in the face with a jab, you WILL NOT stab them in the eye with your finger.

And if you don't do the heavy hand, finger, and bone conditioning such as seen in Uechi Ryu Karate, then you WILL NOT even be really able to hurt someone with those "deadly techniques."

Much of the destructive ability involves conditioning your body, special hand shape, etc to withstand the force of the blow and not collapse due to having a weak wrist, tendon strength, etc. You don't conditioning your Phoenix-Eye fist then you will break your fucking knuckles punching someone like that.

Hence why the "combat sports" training paradigm is the most successful at developing actual skills useable IN A FIGHT. You cannot eye gouge your partner but guess what, you can punch, kick, knee and even elbow.

While traditional conditioning techniques are successful at, guess what, CONDITIONING various body parts to be able to sustain the trauma and blunt force required to use them at full capacity.

Most "traditional" systems are not "traditional" anymore. What "traditional" means is like 500 years ago. When soldiers and imperial bodyguards trained, guess what, they don't do forms all day. They fought, fought, and fought each other, cross-trained between the five ranges of fighting. In Chinese martial arts we call Ti (kicking), Da (punching), Na (seizing e.g. grappling/clinching), and Shuai (throwing)

Oh guess what they do in MMA.... they train all four classic ranges of fighting.

"Traditional" martial arts mostly has become crap, NON-traditional, and taught by weak ass old poseur men. If these arts were "traditional" they would teach less forms, fight constantly, and not wear silk fucking pajamas.

Look at Daido Juku, Enshin, Kyokushin etc... these are good traditional styles.

 

[Godhand13]

"Deadly techniques" are force multipliers of already existing skills, technique and power.

They are NOT a replacement for fundamental, core techniques.

If you can't even hit someone in the face with a jab, you WILL NOT stab them in the eye with your finger.

And if you don't do the heavy hand, finger, and bone conditioning such as seen in Uechi Ryu Karate, then you WILL NOT even be really able to hurt someone with those "deadly techniques."

Much of the destructive ability involves conditioning your body, special hand shape, etc to withstand the force of the blow and not collapse due to having a weak wrist, tendon strength, etc. You don't conditioning your Phoenix-Eye fist then you will break your fucking knuckles punching someone like that.

Hence why the "combat sports" training paradigm is the most successful at developing actual skills useable IN A FIGHT. You cannot eye gouge your partner but guess what, you can punch, kick, knee and even elbow.

While traditional conditioning techniques are successful at, guess what, CONDITIONING various body parts to be able to sustain the trauma and blunt force required to use them at full capacity.

Most "traditional" systems are not "traditional" anymore. What "traditional" means is like 500 years ago. When soldiers and imperial bodyguards trained, guess what, they don't do forms all day. They fought, fought, and fought each other, cross-trained between the five ranges of fighting. In Chinese martial arts we call Ti (kicking), Da (punching), Na (seizing e.g. grappling/clinching), and Shuai (throwing)

Oh guess what they do in MMA.... they train all four classic ranges of fighting.

"Traditional" martial arts mostly has become crap, NON-traditional, and taught by weak ass old poseur men. If these arts were "traditional" they would teach less forms, fight constantly, and not wear silk fucking pajamas.

Look at Daido Juku, Enshin, Kyokushin etc... these are good traditional styles.

Dude, that is sooo true

 

[Payak]

the style thats best is the one you choose and then work your ass off to properly understand how to use the art in a real situation.
in otherwords hardwork is key.
for me i like muay thai and silat puttani but im biased as i do them.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

It honestly doesnt take a wealth of training to be able to boot someone in the schmeckle or poke them in the eye and thinking you will find some style that will give you a, lets say secretive grasp of how to do these things in a fight isnt being grounded in reality.


Besides who is to say a fighter who trains under a rule set wont just as easily stomp your knee in the other direction or gouge your eye out if he is given the chance too? hell we see groin shots and eye pokes in MMA all the time and sometimes they are even intentional. :icon_chee

Further many of the areas like the eyes or groin are small targets thus commiting yourself to attacking them can be bad idea against someone who is commiting themselves to hitting larger more practical areas of your body

Headbutting can be done incorrectly in the heat of a fight and you can end up hurting yourself as much or more than your opponent and biting all together is bad idea as you dont want someones blood in your mouth.

 

[BDragon221]

"Deadly techniques" are force multipliers of already existing skills, technique and power.

They are NOT a replacement for fundamental, core techniques.

If you can't even hit someone in the face with a jab, you WILL NOT stab them in the eye with your finger.

And if you don't do the heavy hand, finger, and bone conditioning such as seen in Uechi Ryu Karate, then you WILL NOT even be really able to hurt someone with those "deadly techniques."

Much of the destructive ability involves conditioning your body, special hand shape, etc to withstand the force of the blow and not collapse due to having a weak wrist, tendon strength, etc. You don't conditioning your Phoenix-Eye fist then you will break your fucking knuckles punching someone like that.

Hence why the "combat sports" training paradigm is the most successful at developing actual skills useable IN A FIGHT. You cannot eye gouge your partner but guess what, you can punch, kick, knee and even elbow.

While traditional conditioning techniques are successful at, guess what, CONDITIONING various body parts to be able to sustain the trauma and blunt force required to use them at full capacity.

Most "traditional" systems are not "traditional" anymore. What "traditional" means is like 500 years ago. When soldiers and imperial bodyguards trained, guess what, they don't do forms all day. They fought, fought, and fought each other, cross-trained between the five ranges of fighting. In Chinese martial arts we call Ti (kicking), Da (punching), Na (seizing e.g. grappling/clinching), and Shuai (throwing)

Oh guess what they do in MMA.... they train all four classic ranges of fighting.

"Traditional" martial arts mostly has become crap, NON-traditional, and taught by weak ass old poseur men. If these arts were "traditional" they would teach less forms, fight constantly, and not wear silk fucking pajamas.

Look at Daido Juku, Enshin, Kyokushin etc... these are good traditional styles.

Hmmm good point, especially the last part about "traditional" martial arts no longer being so traditional. I never thought of it like that, thanks

 

[FadeIntoViolenc]

I am happy I can be of assistance, I have 7 years experience in a traditional Chinese martial art system and did half a year of MMA and 3 years of Muay Thai now.

That said, I learned how to fight mostly from my Thai boxing class.

Go figure right?

 

[lparnes]

muay thai, muay boran, pridal syray these r the most effective stand up martial arts in the world. also good is sholin kung fu, kenpo karate, and tae kwon do