Opinion Bernie Sanders is going to win the Dem nomination in 2020, and become President

Honest question. What part of the two statements I will make below, do you disagree with?

1) the standard operating procedure in law for handling classified information does not allow for ignorance, or intent to be a defense.

2) Hillary Clinton did not properly store classified material.
I think they're both true. I am not claiming Hillary didn't mishandle the email server thing, so I'll just concede that so we can move on.

Do you think she is the only one to mishandle technology in that way? Hint: not a fucking chance. Trump right now is using unsecured technology and the right isn't bring investigations against him (and neither is the FBI that we are aware of). I'd wager lots of these guys mishandle information in similar ways.

You know that was political. And if you don't think the first time Bernie makes a small mistake mishandling something the right won't make a huge scandal out of it, assuming he runs and wins the nomination, I have a bridge to sell you.
 
America is not going to vote a socialist into the whitehouse

I would agree with this and it's probably why the Democrats sabotage him in the previous election.
 
I think they're both true. I am not claiming Hillary didn't mishandle the email server thing, so I'll just concede that so we can move on.

Do you think she is the only one to mishandle technology in that way? Hint: not a fucking chance. Trump right now is using unsecured technology and the right isn't bring investigations against him (and neither is the FBI that we are aware of). I'd wager lots of these guys mishandle information in similar ways.

You know that was political. And if you don't think the first time Bernie makes a small mistake mishandling something the right won't make a huge scandal out of it, assuming he runs and wins the nomination, I have a bridge to sell you.

No absolutely not. I'm am sure mishandling of classified info is status quo for the technology dinosaurs in Congress and the house.

The investigation itself, was politically motivated. That doesn't make it any less in bounds.

If anyone could ever prove that Jane Sanders knowingly falsified a loan document that asked her to speculate on what would happen in the future, that would be in bounds as well, despite being a 100% partisan witch Hunt, and having nothing to do with the rule of law. If that could be proven though(which is absurdly unlikely), I would support the rule of law being upheld despite the blatant partisan nature of it. The other choice is to thumb your nose at the rule of law, which is not something I am willing to do.
 
No absolutely not. I'm am sure mishandling of classified info is status quo for the technology dinosaurs in Congress and the house.

The investigation itself, was politically motivated. That doesn't make it any less in bounds.

If anyone could ever prove that Jane Sanders knowingly falsified a loan document that asked her to speculate on what would happen in the future, that would be in bounds as well, despite being a 100% partisan witch Hunt, and having nothing to do with the rule of law. If that could be proven though(which is absurdly unlikely), I would support the rule of law being upheld despite the blatant partisan nature of it. The other choice is to thumb your nose at the rule of law, which is not something I am willing to do.
I'm with you here and I certainly also believe in the rule of law but we have to also just be honest that politics is a really ugly game and if you want to get your policy passed you have to defend yourself from bullshit political and personal attacks from your opposition. I get it, that's why everyone distrusts politicians in general, but that is the game being played.

I think we need to be honest that the game is ugly but if we want policy we agree with to see the light of day we should vote for politicians that can win at a very ugly game. People who only support their dream politicians and stomp their feet when they don't win and cast protest votes are doomed to continue to see people like Trump win.
 
Well, that's because you're the walking embodiment of a golden mean fallacy.

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Honestly, to even argue that Trump would win over Sanders in Ohio and Pennsylvania is just silly, and taking those states would give Sanders a 270-268 floor.

Pollsters had Hillary winning in 2016 too.
 
I would agree with this and it's probably why the Democrats sabotage him in the previous election.

He wasn't actually sabotaged in any way, though. His biggest legitimate gripe was that there weren't enough debates on the schedule, though note that following initial complaints, more were added.

The other choice is to thumb your nose at the rule of law, which is not something I am willing to do.

Thumbing your nose at the rule of law would be interpreting an old law in a new, unconstitutional way for the sole purpose of eliminating the frontrunner in a presidential campaign.
 
He wasn't actually sabotaged in any way, though. His biggest legitimate gripe was that there weren't enough debates on the schedule, though note that following initial complaints, more were added.



Thumbing your nose at the rule of law would be interpreting an old law in a new, unconstitutional way for the sole purpose of eliminating the frontrunner in a presidential campaign.

Sure, that also doesn't mean ignoring the law being broken, because you can't prove this allegation, is a good decision.
 
He wasn't actually sabotaged in any way, though. His biggest legitimate gripe was that there weren't enough debates on the schedule, though note that following initial complaints, more were added.



Thumbing your nose at the rule of law would be interpreting an old law in a new, unconstitutional way for the sole purpose of eliminating the frontrunner in a presidential campaign.

It came out with the whole wikileaks stuff iirc. DNC chair resigned as did others.
 
Once people understand what socialism is and isn't they will.


in theory, communism isnt evil, people associate the word with evil based on past regimes.

What do you associate with the National Socialist Party?
 
Sure, that also doesn't mean ignoring the law being broken, because you can't prove this allegation, is a good decision.

No law was broken, though. The point was to reinterpret a law to find one being broken to steal the election, but that interpretation has never been used because it would fail a Constitutional challenge.

It came out with the whole wikileaks stuff iirc. DNC chair resigned as did others.

Nothing came out in Russia hacks about Bernie being sabotaged. Schultz preferred Clinton but didn't do anything that could be described as sabotage.
 
No law was broken, though. The point was to reinterpret a law to find one being broken to steal the election, but that interpretation has never been used because it would fail a Constitutional challenge.



Nothing came out in Russia hacks about Bernie being sabotaged. Schultz preferred Clinton but didn't do anything that could be described as sabotage.

What do you mean?

I can show you a story of a navy kid with a cell phone, on a nuclear submarine, he went to jail for less then what Clinton did.

What new interpretation of law was needed?
 
What do you mean?

I can show you a story of a navy kid with a cell phone, on a nuclear submarine, he went to jail for less then what Clinton did.

What new interpretation of law was needed?

A Navy kid? WTF?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/4/13500018/clinton-email-scandal-bullshit

However, as Jack Goldsmith, one of the top lawyers in George W. Bush’s administration explains, such a prosecution “would be entirely novel, and would turn in part on very tricky questions about how email exchanges fit into language written with physical removal of classified information in mind.”

Ben Wittes, a veteran legal journalist and Brookings fellow who has spent the past several years specializing in national security law, wrote that Comey’s characterization was clearly correct:

For the last several months, people have been asking me what I thought the chances of an indictment were. I have said each time that there is no chance without evidence of bad faith action of some kind. People simply don't get indicted for accidental, non-malicious mishandling of classified material. I have followed leak cases for a very long time, both at the Washington Post and since starting Lawfare. I have never seen a criminal matter proceed without even an allegation of something more than mere mishandling of sensitive information. Hillary Clinton is not above the law, but to indict her on these facts, she'd have to be significantly below the law.

It’s true that to a layman the Espionage Act’s reference to “gross negligence” sounds similar to Comey’s characterization of Clinton’s actions as “extremely careless.” But as Philip Zelikow, a counselor to Condoleezza Rice during the Bush administration and currently the Director of the Miller Center at the University of Virginia explains, they only sound alike “unless you do a tiny bit of homework” on the history and caselaw of the Statute.

...

As the Cato Institute’s Julian Sanchez writes, attempting a prosecution for non-malicious mishandling would likely result in the statute being held unconstitutional: “the Supreme Court’s opinion in Gorin v. United States (1941), which suggests that the Espionage Act’s intent requirements are an important feature that save it from unconstitutional vagueness.”

Etc. Everyone (meaning people with legal knowledge following the story) knew from the start that there was no legitimate case here.
 
Voters don't know a lot of about policy. It's about narratives.

Right, but the narratives flow from policies (at least for every candidate other than Trump, but we know him to be an exception).

Sanders' narrative was that wages are stagnating, that increasingly more of the pie is going to the ultra-powerful, that transnational corporations are exerting new levels of influence and distorting society in their image, and that the common man is getting screwed.

Hillary's narrative was that everything is fine and that nothing is wrong - just stay the course and don't vote for the outlandishly crazy person who is speaking to your anxieties!

Yeah, the American people and the media have zero tolerance for any hint of corruption from the left, but it's totally tolerated on the right. The working the refs strategy has worked from a political standpoint, though it's morally and intellectually poisonous.

To be fair, the depth of this hypocrisy was not fully understood until now, given that the only previous Republican presidency of the post-Gingrich era had the benefit of its corruption scandals being obfuscated by the haze of the nation's greatest national tragedy in history.

I'm not as confident as you that the right wouldn't be able to manufacture claims against Bernie, even if they're totally made up. They did it to Hillary and they'll do it against any Democrat and we know that because history tells us it will happen!

To think they could manufacture, in three months time, the same or even comparable bad will to that which they fomented against Clinton over decades is just silly.

Hillary and many other prominent Democrats also have pro-labor policy but I think you're overstating the appetite for non-market based policy, which is what I think you're referring to with neo-liberal policy.

"Market-based" is certainly a cop-out. A policy platform that only allows the welfare of its people to come from added growth, and which ensures that it cannot be provided through accessing existing wealth and cutting into existing distributional disparities, is not merely market-based. A policy can be rooted in market logic or tied to market performance without its benefits for everyday people being mere luxury to be had once ever-upward profit margins are first established and post-tax income levels for the rich fulfilled.

The thing I think you and many of Bernie's ardent supporters are also not pricing in here is the cost of his popular programs. Sure, universal healthcare, free college (which many Democrats support), daycare support etc. are great and I support many ideas here, but the right will make certain that people will be well aware of the costs and that their taxes will absolutely go up. Bernie admitted himself that the middle class will also have to help foot the bill for universal healthcare, for example.

I guess we'll see if people have the stomach for higher taxes when they're struggling to make ends meet.

I don't think this is a meaningful consideration to be honest, but I could be wrong.
 
Etc. Everyone (meaning people with legal knowledge following the story) knew from the start that there was no legitimate case here.

From what I recall, the plain letter of the regulation was such that she clearly violated it and that it was just a case of the law never really being applied, not of it being construed contrary to its plain meaning.
 
Pollsters had Hillary winning in 2016 too.

Pollsters were more accurate in determining the 2016 election than the 2012 or 2008 elections.

Clinton was favored by 2.8% a week before the election (previously about 5.5% before the Comey re-opening).
She won the popular vote by 2.1%.
 
No law was broken, though. The point was to reinterpret a law to find one being broken to steal the election, but that interpretation has never been used because it would fail a Constitutional challenge.



Nothing came out in Russia hacks about Bernie being sabotaged. Schultz preferred Clinton but didn't do anything that could be described as sabotage.

Per NY Times:

"The breach of the Democratic committee’s emails, made public on Friday by WikiLeaks, offered undeniable evidence of what Mr. Sanders’s supporters had complained about for much of the senator’s contentious primary contest with Mrs. Clinton: that the party was effectively an arm of Mrs. Clinton’s campaign. The messages showed members of the committee’s communications team musing about pushing the narrative that the Sanders campaign was inept and trying to raise questions publicly about whether he was an atheist."

The DNC was def plotting and scheming. What they actually did may be of question.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/...serman-schultz-dnc-wikileaks-emails.html?_r=1
 
To think they could manufacture, in three months time, the same or even comparable bad will to that which they fomented against Clinton over decades is just silly.

Why is it silly? Are you not paying attention to how fast the right can get on the same page with right wing media outlets and get messages out via social media? Shit, Trump speaks to Hannity every night (not joking).

I also think you're mistaken if you don't think right wing strategists were ready with attacks on Bernie in the event he won.

"Market-based" is certainly a cop-out. A policy platform that only allows the welfare of its people to come from added growth, and which ensures that it cannot be provided through accessing existing wealth and cutting into existing distributional disparities, is not merely market-based. A policy can be rooted in market logic or tied to market performance without its benefits for everyday people being mere luxury to be had once ever-upward profit margins are first established and post-tax income levels for the rich fulfilled.

Cop-out? At the core there is no way to sustain our economy or society without a market unless you're proposing socialism, and we know were that leads. Now of course I'm taking your comment to an extreme to illustrate that market-based solutions are definitely not a "cop-out" as you call them. They're the best system we've got (they can actually be implemented).

Now, neo-liberal as I understand it means a preference to market-based solutions not entirely market-based solutions. You can probably come up with lots of examples where the market does a shit job of addressing the problem and I'll very likely agree with you.

A good example of where you and I probably disagree which highlights the differences on the left is healthcare. I personally prefer something like Obamacare if we can fix the problems with it. That would represent a market-based solution. You likely prefer some form of universal healthcare which I see lots of big hurdles (aside from political) and think the ACA can address a lot of the same things. To say the ACA is a cop out isn't fair given it's undeniably a big step in the right direction and could be quite good if our politics weren't so tribal and broken.

I don't think this is a meaningful consideration to be honest, but I could be wrong.

I think @Jack V Savage is right in that people aren't all that knowledgeable or care that much about policy at all. But my point there is if Bernie had the chance to debate Trump on why we need a universal healthcare or free college the right was going to remind the world what that would cost and it would certainly hurt Bernie. Raising taxes is unpopular for any candidate.

I don't think you can say both X policies are popular and important to people but the cost of X policies is not. Particularly the ambitious stuff that would certainly require raising taxes on middle class folks (not just the rich).
 
Right, but the narratives flow from policies (at least for every candidate other than Trump, but we know him to be an exception).

That's where the lack of criticism comes in. The narrative that the GOP would tell is that Sanders wants to raise your taxes to pay for welfare for blacks. And the "broad support across the spectrum" would evaporate. You might not be old enough to remember the '90s, but I think a lot of the left still has the healthcare reform failure in mind. It seemed inevitable until the rubber hit the road, the industry lobbied against it, and it vanished. Then Democrats took the L, and figured that the GOP alternative from the era was at least a big improvement over the status quo and would get broad support. Except even though the policies individually polled well, the reforms were presented (plausibly to a lot of the country) as the end of freedom in America. The GOP even posed briefly as defenders of Medicare, which the MSM took at face value and their supporters bought.

A lot of Bernie fans think that older Democrats are just evil or sellouts or something. Clinton is even portrayed as some kind of conservative by many of them, which is utterly ridiculous. What it really is is a belief--an intellectual one as well as a deeply felt one born of experience--that making real reforms is much harder than it looks. A lot of the country is viciously resistant to change (especially if it can be portrayed as benefiting minorities), the MSM is terrible, the right-wing media is even worse, the far left has no commitment to stay and fight or even just to vote, and the GOP base exclusively trusts partisan sources.

Sanders' narrative was that wages are stagnating, that increasingly more of the pie is going to the ultra-powerful, that transnational corporations are exerting new levels of influence and distorting society in their image, and that the common man is getting screwed.

Hillary's narrative was that everything is fine and that nothing is wrong - just stay the course and don't vote for the outlandishly crazy person who is speaking to your anxieties!

Somewhat, yes. Democrats were looking to succeed a popular and massively successful Democratic president. If you're going to say that everything sucks, the natural question would be, "why wouldn't we vote for the other guys, then?" That's one reason it's hard to succeed an incumbent from your own party. Funny thing is, though, once Trump took office, he was able to start his re-election campaign with, "everything is awesome," which is mostly right despite no change in the state of the country.

To be fair, the depth of this hypocrisy was not fully understood until now, given that the only previous Republican presidency of the post-Gingrich era had the benefit of its corruption scandals being obfuscated by the haze of the nation's greatest national tragedy in history.

It was well understood.

To think they could manufacture, in three months time, the same or even comparable bad will to that which they fomented against Clinton over decades is just silly.

Clinton was by far the most popular politician in the country before the campaign started. It's simply not true that she was hated over decades.

From what I recall, the plain letter of the regulation was such that she clearly violated it and that it was just a case of the law never really being applied, not of it being construed contrary to its plain meaning.

There was no law violation unless you introduced a new interpretation, that would likely fail a Constitutional test. It was a (minor) protocol violation.
 
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