Bent over rows (and variants)

[DrBdan]

personally i dont like barbell rows.. when i take my overall lifting seriously i include them. but i prefer grabbing the heaviest dumbell i can use for bent over rows..which for me requires using straps to hold the dumbells. knee and palm on flat bench and start cranking out reps. focusing on pulling my lat back and elbows up. one th setshing i notice, my back doesnt respond well as my pressing movements( heavy weight/low reps/high sets) instead my back responds better to moderate weight and high volume reps per set.

re: the bolded, I believe Tosa has said that physiologically this is correct. Back muscles respond better to a bit more volume. Maybe he can confirm if he sees this.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

The most noticeable sign of increased size in my back was when I did Madcow. So volume and frequency mattered for me.

 

[ballhawkdawk]

re: the bolded, I believe Tosa has said that physiologically this is correct. Back muscles respond better to a bit more volume. Maybe he can confirm if he sees this.

For what it's worth, I've read multiple times that Kroc rows/DB rows should be done with high volume. When I used to progress on them I would try to add a rep to my sets each week.

 

[TrueBias]

re: the bolded, I believe Tosa has said that physiologically this is correct. Back muscles respond better to a bit more volume. Maybe he can confirm if he sees this.

Dont worry, ill confirm it.

Only time I can recommend heavy rows are when they are supported. I cant count how many times ive tried to pull a heavy weight and ended upcheating or seen people move the bar for only inches. However a db row, a spider row, or a unilateral hammer strength row can get the job done.

Id say incorporate a mix of unsupported and supported. Which you do first is going to be the real mind fuck. Do the supported, heavier loads or do the bb rows while fresh so balance can handle challenging loads...

All boils down to "What are you training for?"

 

[IceWolf]

Many beginner programs like SS, SL and other 5 x 5 based programs all call for bent over rows. I was wondering what the more experienced members of the forum think about bent over rows in a beginners program.

Personally I have found that bent over rows cannot be trained like other compound lifts - simply be increasing the weight - and that when training the back in general a bodybuilding approach of isolating the specific muscles is needed. I guess this is why 5/3/1 uses back work as assistance, rather than main lifts.

Also, I find bent over rows one of the hardest exercises to properly engage the back in, rather than something like cable rows or even db rows. I find it much easier to just bicep the weight up. What are your opinions on bent over barbell rows in beginner programs?

If you read Rippetoe's Latest stuff... and I quote "F*** Rows, Seriously, F*** them!"

I think that sums it up, straight from the horse's mouth.

 

[bowlie]

If you read Rippetoe's Latest stuff... and I quote "F*** Rows, Seriously, F*** them!"

I think that sums it up, straight from the horse's mouth.

Seems extreme. Is he refering to bent over barbell rows, or all kinds?

Anyway, do you guys think that in general beginners should focus on DB rows and cable rows rather than barbell ones? This is what I have found, and I wish it was information I had come across earlier.

 

[Tosa]

re: the bolded, I believe Tosa has said that physiologically this is correct. Back muscles respond better to a bit more volume. Maybe he can confirm if he sees this.

Generally speaking the pressing muscles are more fast twitch dominant relative to the muscles of the back. So, for upper body work, the upper back would tolerate/respond better to more reps/volume than pressing exercises. Additionally, barring elbow issues, I've never heard of someone doing too much upper back work.

Although perhaps more important is how upper back training fits in with other training.
While upper back strength is important, and so is shoulder health, are we interested in a max BOR or DB row, or are we interested upper back work as assistance for other exercises, and for shoulder health.

 

[rikwebb]

What grip are you using bowlie? Asking just out of curiousity.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

Lots of people do make it look like a bent over curl, yes...

 

[FyrFytr998]

Only time I can recommend heavy rows are when they are supported.

So much truth. Like I stated before. A lot of folks going heavy on BOR's are "ego" repping with a shit ton of body English. Put them on a support and the weight doesn't move as well any more.

 

[ThinkGreen]

So much truth. Like I stated before. A lot of folks going heavy on BOR's are "ego" repping with a shit ton of body English. Put them on a support and the weight doesn't move as well any more.

That's just making it into more of an isolation movement. Are you saying heavy rows with leg drive are just for ego?

 

[FyrFytr998]

That's just making it into more of an isolation movement. Are you saying heavy rows with leg drive are just for ego?

Nah, I'm talking the newbs that move it a couple inches up and then bring their torsos down the rest of the way to make bar contact. Looks almost like they are kipping, lol.

I understand there is always some amount of sway with an unsupported heavy row, but the overall goal is for bar to travel to torso in one direction. Not both travel and meet halfway. I hope I explained that right.