basics vs. advanced moves

[jiujitzurero]

i agree to the old adage that "the basics wins matches"...but then again, it wouldn't hurt to learn something unorthodox once in awhile to catch your opponent off guard. i think that 'advanced' moves when chopped down, are made up of little basic moves, and when drilled with enough repetition, become 'basic' themselves.

what is your take on this?

 

[Mikey Triangles]

i think you smoke too much pot...

 

[jasond]

i think you smoke too much pot...

Hahaha!

Seriously, Tim Credeur (Rodrigo Medeiros black belt) said something about this at a seminar recently. The gist of it was that since he's earned his black belt he's been fascinated with how basic white belt techniques like scissor sweeps, cross collar chokes, etc. He mentioned that you don't see very many black belts winning world championships with rubber guard triangles to omo platas to whatever, but you do see dozens of them walk off the mat after getting tapped with basic chokes and straight arm bars.

 

[blanko]

speaking of witch..; does anyone other than garcia use the x guard at a high lvl?

 

[Newcastle]

My BJJ coach said the exact same thing this week in class. It doesn't matter if you can hit a flying triangle choke if you suck at the fundamentals.

 

[ous]

so what are the basics moves??

I mean what do you consider the basics?
i know newbie alert

 

[jasond]

so what are the basics moves??

I mean what do you consider the basics?
i know newbie alert

I'd say the basic positional stuff from each major position + the basic subs from each.

Things like:

Guard
- Basic sweeps (scissor and hip bump)
- Basic subs (cross collar choke, arm bar, kimura)

In Guard
-Basics of good posture
-How to break the guard open (both kneeling and standing)
-Basic guard passes (knee-over, stacking, etc)
-Basic sweep / sub defenses

Mount
- Principles of holding mount / countering basic escapes
- Basic subs (arm bar, cross collar choke, Americana)

Under Mount
- Basic defensive positional principles
- Basic escapes / reversals (Upa, elbow-knee escape)

Side Control
-Principles of holding mount / countering basic escapes
-Basic subs (Americana, forearm choke, kimura)

Under Side Control
-Basic defensive positional principles
-Basic escapes / reversals (hip escape to guard replacement, hip escape to knees, etc)

Back Mount
-Principles of holding back mount / countering basic escapes
-Basic subs (RNC, sliding collar choke)

When Back Mounted
-Basic escape (back to to the mat-turn into opponent's guard)
-Basic sub defense

Things like that. Of course, this is just off of the top of my head and just my opinion; nothing in stone.

To be honest, I consider positions that a lot of people take for granted like half guard to be intermediate. I think a beginner should have a good base in the 8 basic positions to start with; especially when it comes to defending and escaping from them. I think the majority of a person's first few months should be dedicated almost entirely to defenses, escapes, and holding positions.

 

[Push]

the basic chokes, locks, sweeps and escapes that you learn at the beginning of your training. I am working on all of those right now and am doing pretty well with the other students that have been training for a while.

My biggest problem is I don't have enough experience to see the mistakes that my partner makes that would equal an easy win.

*edit* jason's explanation is much better than mine.

 

[Darksky]

Basics are great to fall back on in tough matches, but can get kind of old night after night. Some of the advanced moves are really challenging to get and really expose the technical and strategic side of grappling.

 

[jasond]

Basics are great to fall back on in tough matches, but can get kind of old night after night. Some of the advanced moves are really challenging to get and really expose the technical and strategic side of grappling.

I don't think anyone is saying that there's anything wrong with more advanced techniques; just that you don't want a new white belt (or anyone for that matter) to get caught up in learning all the newest, fanciest moves hyped on the Internet if they can't execute basic techniques properly.

 

[TacWar]

There are no such things as advanced techniques...there are basic positions and transitions to get there.

 

[jasond]

There are no such things as advanced techniques...there are basic positions and transitions to get there.

That's debatable. I'd argue that a beginner has no business trying to learn Brabo chokes from half guard if they can't even pass guard to advance to half guard in the first place or having guys trying to learn armbars from s-mount if they don't know how to achieve and hold traditional mount.

 

[TacWar]

That's debatable. I'd argue that a beginner has no business trying to learn Brabo chokes from half guard if they can't even pass guard to advance to half guard in the first place or having guys trying to learn armbars from s-mount if they don't know how to achieve and hold traditional mount.

So you believe beginners should only be shown guard and breaking guard techniques until they can pass? and that these are the only basic techniques? I think I'm with you that there are techniques those starting should learn. However, when people talk about "Advanced techniques" I believe they are trying to say they are moves you can't learn if you don't have the basics, and you can learn the brabo choke and s-mount as you are learning other techniques.

My argument is that you learn the techniques and they are all basic, but you link them with transitions. Ie in your scenario with the S-mount you can know S-mount and normal mount, but you need to learn to transition from side control to mount to S-mount to armbar.

 

[bJJmON]

After watching the Pan-ams i have a whole new understanding of how important the basics are. The upper belts won their matches not flying submissions, or jumping around and doing flashy advanced moves. The matches were won by position and control. What impressed me most was how the better contenders would never give up points or position. If they got side control they weren't swept, they didn't goto half, they controlled their opponent, kept side, and finished from there.

Also watching Kron Gracie destroy everyone in his division and absolute with basic armbars and chokes makes you appreciate how effective technique can be. He won not because of his size or athleticism but how precise and well developed his technique was. very impressive

 

[Prokofievian]

I watched that eddie bravo interview too...

 

[jasond]

So you believe beginners should only be shown guard and breaking guard techniques until they can pass? and that these are the only basic techniques?

No. I probably should have explained myself better.

I think I'm with you that there are techniques those starting should learn. However, when people talk about "Advanced techniques" I believe they are trying to say they are moves you can't learn if you don't have the basics, and you can learn the brabo choke and s-mount as you are learning other techniques.

My argument is that you learn the techniques and they are all basic, but you link them with transitions. Ie in your scenario with the S-mount you can know S-mount and normal mount, but you need to learn to transition from side control to mount to S-mount to armbar.

I think we actually agree for the most part.

I'm not saying that people can't learn S-mount if they don't know how to transition to and hold mount. I just don't think it's a good learning curve to put them on. Also, S-mount wasn't the best example of what would be considered advanced. I should have said something along the lines of Robson Moura's cross guard or something like that.

I agree with you that someone could learn it before they learn some basic regular closed guard techniques. I just don't think it's a good idea for them to try a more exotic technique if they don't have at least a working understanding of the basic root position that it came from.

Kind of like someone trying to learn the arm bar from S-mount without knowing the transition from side control to mount, etc. Not that they have to master it, but they should have a good grasp of point A before they try to get to point D in my opinion.

Again, this is just my opinion.

 

[Aesopian]

speaking of witch..; does anyone other than garcia use the x guard at a high lvl?

I wish I knew his name but one of Gordo's black belts used x-guard before Marcelo made it famous. He did it a little differently and didn't hang out there as long as Marcelo does but it was still x-guard.

 

[Submariner]

After watching the Pan-ams i have a whole new understanding of how important the basics are. The upper belts won their matches not flying submissions, or jumping around and doing flashy advanced moves. The matches were won by position and control. What impressed me most was how the better contenders would never give up points or position. If they got side control they weren't swept, they didn't goto half, they controlled their opponent, kept side, and finished from there.

Also watching Kron Gracie destroy everyone in his division and absolute with basic armbars and chokes makes you appreciate how effective technique can be. He won not because of his size or athleticism but how precise and well developed his technique was. very impressive

Word. Mastering "the basics" is an advanced thing in and of itself. Just because you know how to do a move doesn't mean you've "mastered" it.

Setting up moves properly, weight distribution, recognizing openings, movement, timing, transitions, anticipating counters, having counters for the counters, etc. Those are things that are necessary to master the basics. And it takes YEARS.

 

[ous]

@jasond, thnks for the basic moves

 

[TacWar]

No. I probably should have explained myself better.



I think we actually agree for the most part.

I'm not saying that people can't learn S-mount if they don't know how to transition to and hold mount. I just don't think it's a good learning curve to put them on. Also, S-mount wasn't the best example of what would be considered advanced. I should have said something along the lines of Robson Moura's cross guard or something like that.

I agree with you that someone could learn it before they learn some basic regular closed guard techniques. I just don't think it's a good idea for them to try a more exotic technique if they don't have at least a working understanding of the basic root position that it came from.

Kind of like someone trying to learn the arm bar from S-mount without knowing the transition from side control to mount, etc. Not that they have to master it, but they should have a good grasp of point A before they try to get to point D in my opinion.

Again, this is just my opinion.

I think we are generally saying the same thing, but might just be arguing semantics with each other. My saying of "there is no such thing as advanced techniques just basic positions and transitions." is a bit of an oversimplification.. I'm implying that instead of thinking in terms of advanced versus basic we should think in position, submission, transition.. Ie you learn the position, then submissions from position, and then transition between different positions and submissions.... does that make a bit more sense?