Attn King Kabuki

Discussion in 'Dieting / Supplement Discussion' started by wamrage, Aug 31, 2005.

  1. wamrage

    wamrage Guest

    You seem like the man to ask about anything in here - so:

    I started working out and training hardcore again, started taking protein and creatine for the first time ever and although I've noticed a strength increase, and definitely put on some weight, it seems like I'm getting more than what I thought I would get in fat.

    What can you tell me about the type of Creatine and Protein I am taking?

    Creatine = CV2 (Capsules - 6 a day)

    Whey Protein - ISO XP (Seems like it is shit)

    If you could recommend something better (but it can't taste like shit, that's why I have creatine in pills now) that would be awesome. I have no limit really on what I'm willing to spend. I'd rather get good shit and see the gains then waste my money on crap.
     
  2. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Wait a second, you're saying you are taking these things and have gained fat? That would come more from your eating. Otherwise , I've never heard of those two supplements. CV2 is made by NxCare, who have some good supplements. BUT, they also market the Anavol which was supposed to compete with NO2, and NO ONE buys that shit. So I would wager to say CV2 is their product to compete with MRI's CE2, and wether anyone likes to admit it or not there's just not really any competing with MRI right now. NO2 still out-sells everything. And now CE2 is the hot Creatine, moreso than Cellmass by BSN, moreso than CM3 by San.
    ISO XP sounds like NXCare's answer to Isopure, which already has a reputation for tasting like absolute shit.

    But, there are options:


    Expensive - CE2 or Cellmass - These are the main two Esterfied creatines on the market that are alleged (because someone is going to start posting discrediting studies in here, so I'll say alleged to appease their argumentative natures) to bypass the liver completely, and not have the water-bloating effect monohydrate creatines and Creatine AKG's have. Cellmass is powdered drink, CE2 is pills.

    Cheap - Go for a creatine AKG or Monohydrate. I find (through words of my clients, because I still don't use creatine) that a simple monohydrate creatine, unflavored, mixed with like apple juice does good enough to have all the benefits of creatine. An AKG Creatine (like V12 by San), will have moreso of an effect, but they usually come in flavored formulas. Creatine monohydrate pills seem to be virtually useless.

    Protein:

    I almost ALWAYS recommend people give the Muscle Milk a shot before anything. It just really is more nutritious than most proteins out there. There are competition products (Optibol, Anabolic Milk, etc.) but none of them have quite the formula and good taste Muscle Milk does. And it gets the results despite being higher in calories. It's worked for big people trying to lose fat, skinny people trying to ut on muscle, I've given it to recovering surgery patients (even Cancer patients believe it or not) to keep their weight up, the stuff has just been put to the test and works.

    But...not a lot of guys want it. So, simple Whey Proteins. I myself am preferrential to Optimum Nutrition's 100% whey. Specifically the Vanilla flavor. If you're looking to cut up, it's low calorie, decent protein, and low sodium. Only drawback is it tastes like nothing whatsoever.
     
  3. Sonny

    Sonny Handsome Woman

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    Another cheap alternative is to buy regular micronized creatine monohydrate and dextrose seperately and mix them yourself! Just make sure the creatine you get is labeled creapure!
     
  4. Madmick

    Madmick Cerebrage Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Why is the MRI NO2 selling so well? It's the exact same thing as the Pinnacle, Universal, or IDS, for over twice the price. Unless these other manufacturers are producing egregiously below pharmaceutical standard, there should be no difference at all. This has to be merketing, because chemically, the difference isn't in the bottle. The Nitrix by BSN, on the other hand, is more than just AKG.

    The CE2 comes out to be cheaper than the Cellmass, but once again, it's less complex (not to say that "complex" is by rote a good thing, but in this case, it just means BSN's product contains the exact ingredient as MRI's and then some). The CM2 is ridiculously cheap in comparison to both and provides the same, core ingredient: Creatine Ester Hydrochloride.

    I don't understand people.

    If I went this way, I'd get the CM2 & the Nitrix.
     
  5. wamrage

    wamrage Guest

    All that shit should be carried at GNC?

    I don't have time to buy online if it's cheaper and wait for it to arrive and I don't mind paying more. I heard a lot of good things about muscle milk and id be willing to try it. It is just a powder right?

    To King - I figured I'd obviously gain some fat in the process but I didn't think as much as it LOOKS like I have so far. I haven't weighed myself but in a few weeks my bench has gone up about 25 lbs, so that feels pretty good, I just don't like the effects it has taken on my appearance at this point. I guess I'm stuck with doing what is necessary - bulking up and shedding the fat later as it's the only way that really works. Just hope I don't gain too much more.

    This Ester shit you guys are all talking about, what is the big difference between that and everything else? I'm assuming my CV2 Pills don't have that in them.
     
  6. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I've had this discussion before with your favorite former poster *wink wink* whose point you actually agree with here (can you believe it?) lol. There is ONE thing though that seperates MRI's NO2 from everything else, and that's their delivery system. Here's the scoop on that:

    Ed Byrd holds that patent, and is notorious in the Industry for being willing to go to war over the integrity of his shit (hence EAS being so big when he was a co-owner and now it's gone to absolute bunk), thus, all of these other manufacturers at-best can only slightly replicate the delivery system in the NO2. Which means they can come close, but not duplicate it nearly exactly, he WILL sue the pants off of them. That delivery system is well-known, and I've had in the couple of years I've been working for GNC, customers try different products. Some of my long-term customers are more than willing to guinea pig, it's kind of frightening. No-Explode, Muscle Nitrous (VPX), Nitrix, Anavol, Pump-Tech, every NO booster has been tried and tested, and NO2 is still the one of choice. Yeah it's expensive as balls, but keep in mind, most guys get it during the Gold Card week along with everything else in their regimen at my store, so they walk in expecting to spend about $200-$250, and it's no big deal at this point. They have already effectively budgeted it into their routines and don't even think twice about it at this point.

    Now that's not to say there aren't alternatives. One of my managers is studying to become a Pharmacologist and I actually had the pleasure of listening to him talk with a pharmacist and the dude speaks the lingo as well as I speak psycho-babble. He was telling me that a lot of these guys COULD get the same effect as Nitrous boosters using the simple combination of Arginine/Ornithine taken in higher doses, along with something else (I forget), it won't be the same, but it will be cheaper. I'm going to go this route myself just to test it out. However, the NO2 has stories tied to it in my experience like this:

    One of my long-term clients is a registered Nurse and has been for I don't know, nearly 20 years. He works for a Hospital, couple of years ago he was moving one of the big hospital beds and heard a snap, then couldn't move, couldn't take his hands off the posts of the bed, without excrutiating pain. Come to find out he ruptured (as in they exploded) two discs in his back. They wanted to give him Spinal Fusion surgery, so he says to the Doctor "look, nevermind that shit. I know that surgery and I will have limited movement and be under some kind of pain management medication for the rest of my life. If this was YOUR back, what would you do?" The Doctor tells him he can do a weight-training program and idealistically, if he can strengthen his back enough to hold what's left of his spine in-place, then he won't have to do the surgery. So he decided to give that route a go. So basically, this dude has to work out or he cannot move. Now he's like in his late 40's and looks great, can move, and he says without the NO2, he wouldn't have been able to do it. He buys about 3 bottles at a time every couple of months. I've told him about the comparison products, he told me no fucking way. lol EVERY time he's in the store if I'm telling another dude about it, or another guy asks about it because he sees him buying 3 bottles of something that costs $80, he tells them that story and there's another buy for NO2.

    wamrage - As I said, the Esterfied creatine was created to bypass the liver and prevent too much water bloating. It's in the process of everyone who questions supplement companies trying to discredit it, but the guys who have tried it like it enough, though monohydrate still has just as many faithful buyers as ever. I think CV2 probably has AKG creatine, which is like the in-between of monohydrate and Ester, more potent than monohydrate, not as "advanced" as Esterfied.

    And dude, you don't have to get fat to bulk. There are ways to do it and stay lean, but it just takes a bit more time and effort.
     
  7. Sherdog_Mutt

    Sherdog_Mutt Purple Belt

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    Great! Now I read this thread... after I plunked down the money to purchase Anavol. What's so bad about Anavol anyways?
     
  8. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Nothing is wrong with it per se, like there's nothing wrong with "Tasteeo's" as opposed to Cheerios, "Krispy Rice" as opposed to Rice Krispies, "Fruit Rings" as opposed to Fruit Loops, you get the idea.
     
  9. Sherdog_Mutt

    Sherdog_Mutt Purple Belt

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    I have to admit. The stuff tastes like citrus flavored ass. Not that I would know what ass tastes like.
     
  10. kungfool

    kungfool White Belt

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    King Kabuki -

    Is Muscle Milk really that good? I haven't seen anyone on this forum express any disappointment towards it, so far. Is there any reason to switch from my regular whey/casein proteins to it?

    I'm surprised it worked for big people trying to lose fat - the calorie count scared me away when I thought of buying it.
     
  11. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    The calories come from the MCT's and the Protein. Low-calorie proteins are good for JUST the protein, but overall they're not really that nutritious. The Muscle Milk works the way it does for big people in the same way good fats help the metabolism function and process stored bodyfat properly. True enough there's been people who don't like it or it hasn't "worked" for them...(I take that with a grain of salt because almost ALWAYS when a supplement doesn't work it's the fault of the person taking it), but that would be like 2% of the people who use it.
     
  12. kungfool

    kungfool White Belt

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    Ah, thanks for the info.

    Is this for postworkout only? I thought mixing large amounts of carbs and fat was a no-no (then again, that could be another internet myth) - I usually have 2 bananas or some gatorade after lifting.
     
  13. wamrage

    wamrage Guest

    So NO2 or some sort of Esterfield comes in capsules? I hate powder so much, and im not afraid of dropping lots of money for good stuff.

    Would you cycle on and off NO2? I was told by some not to and some people to cycle...my buddy does and he has gotten huge so I'll probably just take his advice.

    If I can get capsules of NO2 I'll do that, and I'll give muscle milk a try too (Is that powder you mix with water? milk?)

    Thanks again

    About the getting fat thing, I think I tend to watch what I eat a bit less when bulking. When I cut I eat soooo healthy, and I think I gotta just do the same thing but eat a lot more.
     
  14. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Bananas and gatorade = carbs.

    You basically almost can't go wrong with post-workout meals in-all truth, because you're body is so ready to accept nutrients it's not even funny. But because of Casein's slow absorbance, it is better post. Pre-workout it'd still be in your stomach most likely.
     
  15. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    YES!

    I mix my Muscle Milk with Skim Milk. I'm in a HEAVY cutting phase right now so I half-dose it. If you're trying to bulk the full dose is good. Two scoops.

    MRI puts out both the NO2 and CE2 (their Esterfied Creatine), but before someone cries shennanigans, I'd say unless you have a GNC Gold Card, find a better deal on them than GNC, we sell it for actual retail Price, which is a damnable sin nowadays. You could tentatively find them both MUCH cheaper in other places.

    Oh and yes both of them are in pill-form, but be prepared, you gotta take a buttload of them. If you're supplement regime is anything like mine though, you'll be used to it. My breakfast appetizer is a round of about 17 pills total. lol
     
  16. wamrage

    wamrage Guest

    Thanks for the quick reply.

    I actually lost my gold card but they wrote down in a book somewhere at the store that I'm a gold member I think.

    So at gold prices it's not so bad? Any idea how much muscle milk + NO2 runs roughly?

    17 pills - that's crazy! what are you taking? right now I take 10 pills a day between creatine, vitamins, flax seed oil, and calcium.

    It's tough to stay in shape because i moved out and we eat a lot of shit, I think I just need to get a george foreman and start making lean chicken a lot to go with my tuna and other stuff. I can cook but I can't think of anything good for me to eat.......im assuming pasta isn't really a good call because it's pure carbs and my body needs more protein to build muscle
     
  17. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Actually for mass you need as much good carbs and good fat to build muscle effectively. Cooking all your own shit is the best Bro, all the pro's usually do it, and they know how to order good food at restaurants. I take a lot of things most guys don't because they don't think of it. I've never done this up here, but I'll give a quick rundown of the supps I take:

    CLA/EFA complex - Joints, skin, good fats, etc.
    Concentrated Fruit capsules - for the anti-oxidant properties, and that I don't eat a lot of fruit.
    Concentrated Vegetable Caps - same reason as the fruit one, but I do eat a lot of greens, I use this on days I'm in a hurry.
    Multivitamin - self-explanatory.
    Triflex - preventative joint care.
    DHEA - trying it out to see what all the hoopla is about.
    Saw Palmetto - preventative prostate care.
    Tyrosine - compliments my fat-burner.
    Thermogenic - Trying out the D4 by Cellucore, new line.
    Cortislim - reduces the cortisol and tentative fat-storage post-workout.
    COQ10 - you'd be sirprised how many supplements deplete your Co-enzyem Q10 levels, so I take a low-dose just for maintenance and healthy blood circulation to the heart.

    That's it right now.

    During Gold Card week the Muscle Milk/NO2 combination will run you roughly $97.50, which is down from $121.98 standard retail.

    But I'll let you in on a secret. There's a big Labor Day sale going on Labor Day weekend and the Muscle Milk is going to be about $26 a piece. Which would bring the total down to $90 if you want optimum savings.
     
  18. wamrage

    wamrage Guest

    Thanks for taking your time to help a guy out.

    I'm thinking I should get a veggie capsule of some sort too...

    Is that sale just in the states or all GNC? I'm up in Canada
     
  19. finnegan

    finnegan Mountains and Fleas

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    Is this the 40th anniversary sale, or this another sale on top of that?
     
  20. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    It's the Labor Day Sale, the 40th Annivesary thing is a promotion, the sale is JUST for Labor Day weekend.

    And it should be chain-wide, Canada included.
     

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