Attn King Kabuki

[Madmick]

You basically almost can't go wrong with post-workout meals in-all truth, because you're body is so ready to accept nutrients it's not even funny. But because of Casein's slow absorbance, it is better post. Pre-workout it'd still be in your stomach most likely.

I don't think this is right, Kabuki. Casein is slow-releasing, but I think that's a good thing for preworkout, because that protein is slowly released to your muscles throughout your workout (the same principle applied in carbs: low-glycemic before, so they sustain your energy, and high-glycemic immediately after, to spike your insulin and increase your absorption of nutrients...with a meal a few hours later to stabilize the blood sugar and avoid a crash from the spike).

I think Muscle Milk is better suited preworkout since the MCT's will provide energy, but assuming they also increase metabolism, they will mobilize your body fat to also be used as energy (as opposed to eating carbs immediately before a workout which will be burned for energy and prevent the burning of fat, and consequently, weight loss).

 

[Sinister]

From what I understand, the body would prefer to burn whatever is in your stomach as opposed to stored bodyfat during your workout, including protein. I know I've said before that the body doesn't want to burn protein for energy first (which is primarily true), but the high-calorie content and slow release of the Casein in Muscle Milk I think might make it a perfect culprit. I'd rather have it post-workout when all of the nutrients can be assimilated slowly after the muscles have been broken down and glycogen stores have been depleated, same idea behind having it first-thing in the morning. To me it makes more sense to have Whey, which is assimilated quickly, before your workout because the Protein will be already assimilated by the time you workout. I wouldn't necessarily want my body trying to absorb over 300 calories WHILE I'm trying to burn calories.

 

[Madmick]

From what I understand, the body would prefer to burn whatever is in your stomach as opposed to stored bodyfat during your workout, including protein. I know I've said before that the body doesn't want to burn protein for energy first (which is primarily true), but the high-calorie content and slow release of the Casein in Muscle Milk I think might make it a perfect culprit. I'd rather have it post-workout when all of the nutrients can be assimilated slowly after the muscles have been broken down and glycogen stores have been depleated, same idea behind having it first-thing in the morning. To me it makes more sense to have Whey, which is assimilated quickly, before your workout because the Protein will be already assimilated by the time you workout. I wouldn't necessarily want my body trying to absorb over 300 calories WHILE I'm trying to burn calories.

Hmmm...we're on the same page.

But I disagree with Muscle Milk after a workout for the reason it takes a longer amount of time to be assimilated when your body needs nutrients in that one hour window. And I can't be certain about my position that it should be taken pre-workout (since I don't know the exact absorption timetable for caseins, or whey concentrates and isolates, for that matter), but I take that position on the principle it has long been recommended to athletes to eat a meal of primarily low-glycemic carbohydrates (and secondarily of a whole food protein) a few hours before working out because the carbohydrates will not spike the insulin levels, but will be used steadily- and directly- from the bloodstream as energy. In this case, the MCT's substistute for the low-gly carbs, and the casein for the less quickly digested whole food protein (as opposed to a quickly absorbed whey).

So I guess I should specify (or perhaps reverse, I'm not sure if I made a mistake earlier) my position: it is best to take Muscle Milk not immediately, but 2 hours before a workout.

 

[Madmick]

I've had this discussion before with your favorite former poster *wink wink* whose point you actually agree with here (can you believe it?)

Upon reading this, you know, I immediately went out and bought a case each of NO2 and CE2.

Just kidding...no I'm not.

There is ONE thing though that seperates MRI's NO2 from everything else, and that's their delivery system.

The two websites I checked (DPS and Bodybuilding) didn't list the "Phylex9 Delivery System." I thought this stuff was just pure AKG. It was mind-boggling.

The delivery system makes more sense. That's where feedback from customers on a large scale (something you, Kabuki, can offer us...not asking one guy whose big in the gym) is useful, since when they test the effects of stuff like AKG, they usually only test the agent itself, and never test the varying delivery systems on the market. So there could be a difference here, although as always, I'm skeptical.

I hadn't heard of Ed Byrd, but it's good to know there's a guy out there who actually believes in his shit to the point he's willing to sue to protect it. That can't be convenient.

 

[Sinister]

Man someone was bitching about NO2 up here once and they said they went to a Byrd seminar where he explained it. The dude said he went up to question Ed who basically ignored all his questions but handed him 3 free bottles of the NO2. His conclusion was that Ed COULDN'T answer his questions and that the stuff is snake oil. I said (paraphrased) "hmm, so basically he didn't let you run your mouth, and basically suggested you try the shit ($160 worth for free) and make your own decision, and you're pissed because he didn't kiss your ass by revealing trade-secrets. Great."

But I disagree with Muscle Milk after a workout for the reason it takes a longer amount of time to be assimilated when your body needs nutrients in that one hour window. And I can't be certain about my position that it should be taken pre-workout (since I don't know the exact absorption timetable for caseins, or whey concentrates and isolates, for that matter), but I take that position on the principle it has long been recommended to athletes to eat a meal of primarily low-glycemic carbohydrates (and secondarily of a whole food protein) a few hours before working out because the carbohydrates will not spike the insulin levels, but will be used steadily- and directly- from the bloodstream as energy. In this case, the MCT's substistute for the low-gly carbs, and the casein for the less quickly digested whole food protein (as opposed to a quickly absorbed whey).

Your argument isn't unreasonable, and I do think we're on the same page. I just think we have different times-tables ourselves for how we use our supplements. Like before my workout I use a low GI carb drink fortified with my amino vital. And after the workout if I don't have real food I have the Muscle Milk IMMEDIATELY (I don't think Casein takes longer than one hour to absorb). Sometimes I have the Muscle Milk then eat again an hour or so later. I prefer the slow release immediately after workout only because I think of my body as a machine. So say, by principal, you have an overheated car. Do you pop off the cap and pour coolant in it RIGHT when it's done over-heating until it's full? Not usually. You wait (slow-release) let it cool down, and add the most significant coolant while it's re-cooperating.

It's hard to explain, but it does get results. Like any person who is training to hopefully become something of a viable athlete, I have wierd superstitions and shit that many people tell me I'm crazy for. As long as they work (even if it's placebo-effect), I really don't care. lol