International 248 people, 66 children Palestinian dead after "Apartheid state" Israel launches airstrikes in Gaza

[FIGHTING TALK]

The real problem is that violence on both sides is affecting the non violent people of both sides, whom make up the vast vast majority. The ones that are engaged in violence are not the targets, this is the absurdity of it all.

 

[dannialn]

These ownership's are shady and bullshit

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-eas...li-attacks-on-gaza-strip-rises-to-32/2237483#

As for deaths duh, this sparked outrage around Gaza

Again, the people evicted were not killed, like you claimed. That Happened in Jerusalem, not gaza.
The people killed in Gaza happened later after the mess at Al Aqsa and after HAMAS decided to benefit from the situation and fire a barrage of hundreds of rockets into Israel.

 

[Samjj]

The native Arabs didn't have this conflict with the Jews who lived there continuously, those Jews lived more or less in peace with the native Arabs. In fact in the 18th century a powerful Muslim Arab of the region invited Jews of the region back to Palestine and helped them build infrastructure for their communities.

Its the Zionists who came from Europe who started this conflict by trying to create their ethnostate at the expense of the gentile population that was already living there. You know this but will obfuscate with these Zionists myths since that's the playbook.

Oh and btw the Palestinians, along with the native Bedouin and Druze, are the most genetically related to Middle Eastern Jewry. So when you say that Jews precede the Palestinians, you're avoiding the fact that the Palestinians are genetically the same people more or less who just happened to convert out of Judaism. Meanwhile European Jewry, the ones who started the Zionist movement and created and run Israel, are more related to the French.

What myths? Do you deny the existence of a Jewish kingdom from 2000 years ago? And what does it matter that the early Zionist movement was primarily driven by Ashkenazi Jews. The majority of Jews today living in Israel are of middle Eastern decent.

You also falsely claim that modern day Palestinians are the direct descendants of the population from 2000 years ago pre Jewish exile. Palestinians are also of diverse ancestry from all over the Mediterranean and Levant. In short, you decontextualize, mislead, and minimize history when it’s convenient for you.

 

[dannialn]

The native Arabs didn't have this conflict with the Jews who lived there continuously, those Jews lived more or less in peace with the native Arabs. In fact in the 18th century a powerful Muslim Arab of the region invited Jews of the region back to Palestine and helped them build infrastructure for their communities.

Its the Zionists who came from Europe who started this conflict by trying to create their ethnostate at the expense of the gentile population that was already living there. You know this but will obfuscate with these Zionists myths since that's the playbook.

Oh and btw the Palestinians, along with the native Bedouin and Druze, are the most genetically related to Middle Eastern Jewry. So when you say that Jews precede the Palestinians, you're avoiding the fact that the Palestinians are genetically the same people more or less who just happened to convert out of Judaism. Meanwhile European Jewry, the ones who started the Zionist movement and created and run Israel, are more related to the French.

Side stepping this, in my eyes, irrelevant historical anecdotes. How do you explain how well integrated the Druze and Christian Arabs are in the Israeli society? They are no less Palestinians then those living in Ramallah, so if this whole thing is driven by Israeli hatred, racism, colonization or whatever, how come those dont apply to these populations?

 

[FIGHTING TALK]

I’m not inclined to feel bad for Hamas. That being said, let the two militaries bang bro. Solve this once and for all. No outside involvement including Iran for Palestine.

Israel has a fully fledged state of the art world class military.
The Palestinians mostly throw rocks.
So there can be no war, not in the true sense, as only one side has the capability to inflict major long lasting damage on the other.

Now it certainly doesn’t excuse the Palestinians and hamas from their acts of violence, not in the slightest, and some of their decision making is beyond dumb and reckless. But it all has to be put into its correct context for peace to ever stand a chance or it will just continually spiral out of control and both sides inevitably lose and their people suffer.

Why the powers that be on both sides can’t see sense and shake hands for the benefit of their own people is quite puzzling to those of us in the west.

 

[Islam Imamate]

What myths? Do you deny the existence of a Jewish kingdom from 2000 years ago?

Huh? I never denied it but like I said it has precious little to do with the current conflict other than figuring into the mythology of Zionism.

And what does it matter that the early Zionist movement was primarily driven by Ashkenazi Jews. The majority of Jews today living in Israel are of middle Eastern decent.

It matters because it undermines your dishonest sleight of hands. You say that Jews have a historic presence in the region as if its the Jewish population that continuously lived in Israel that drove the Zionist movement when it was recent migrants from Europe who did.

You also falsely claim that modern day Palestinians are the direct descendants of the population from 2000 years ago pre Jewish exile. Palestinians are also of diverse ancestry from all over the Mediterranean and Levant.

Ostrer’s team also identified two major groups of Jews: Middle Eastern Jews (Iranian and Iraqi) and European/Syrian Jews. The split between these two groups of Jews occurred some 2,500 years ago.

Both groups of Jews shared ancestry with contemporary Middle Eastern and Southern European populations. The closest genetic relatives of the Middle Eastern Jews are Druze, Bedouin and Palestinians. The closest genetic relatives of the European group of Jews are Northern Italians, followed by Sardinians and French.

https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots-1.5411201

In short, you decontextualize, mislead, and minimize history when it’s convenient for you.

Hardcore projecting here buddy, you're the one jumping all over the place and dishonestly framing your claims.

Side stepping this, in my eyes, irrelevant historical anecdotes. How do you explain how well integrated the Druze and Christian Arabs are in the Israeli society? They are no less Palestinians then those living in Ramallah, so if this whole thing is driven by Israeli hatred, racism, colonization or whatever, how come those dont apply to these populations?

Christian Arabs are also subjected to eviction if they live in the occupied territories. If Israel wanted to grant citizenship to all Palestinians living in the occupied territories and integrate them into Israeli society equally under the law that'd be fine, actually preferable. Two state solution is dead in the water and the world doesn't need another Arab state, if anything it needs fewer but that's a conversation for another thread.

 

[Goatenstein]

War over their silly religious characters is worth it to them.

 

[dannialn]

Christian Arabs are also subjected to eviction if they live in the occupied territories. If Israel wanted to grant citizenship to all Palestinians living in the occupied territories and integrate them into Israeli society equally under the law that'd be fine, actually preferable. Two state solution is dead in the water and the world doesn't need another Arab state, if anything it needs fewer but that's a conversation for another thread.

I'm talking about the ones living in Israel that have a citizenship. CHristian Arabs are the most well educated group in Israel and their social economic status is on par with the Jews. The Druze are even of the best soldiers in the IDF, they were the best performing battalion in Lebanon for example.

 

[Halifax]

So do you think America should give back the country to the natives then? It's their religious homeland, they were killed and kicked off it for centuries, repeatedly lied to and abused the entire time.

Each case has its specifics. I don't know yours.

I don't know American history of treatment of Natives as well as I know Canadian treatment of indigenous first nations, particularly Halifax other than you Americans were a lot bloodier about it. What I do know is yes, Canada lied to us continuously and documented the fact in well written official treaties which came to light much later and are being discussed in courts and settlement hearings as we speak. The indigenous population granted Canada a lot of land in official documents for promises that were not kept and broken at many turns. A lot of land in Canada is still considered "unceded native land", and thus, we are not permitted to develop on it, sell, it, log it, without the permissions of the first nations counsels in control of those lands. Which is usually given after some financial transfers and incentives.

Unfortunately, we are also very very excluded from proceedings if you are part Native like myself and were not raised on the reservations and reservations I have seen have a very corrupted system designed to benefit the best swindlers like Mike Sack. When a former chief like his blood Jerry Sack can spread drugs and addiction in the community to use as leverage and extort your vote for him to remain chief, or threaten to have your home given to another family and move you to a shittier home if you don't cooperate(Chiefs have that power and the Canadian government can't intervene). Mike Sack's people live in Abject poverty. He is a multi millionaire who owns multiple constructions businesses and fisheries and swindles the money he is supposed to use as chief to help his people into his own private coffers.

http://kukukwes.com/2016/11/01/mone...ik-band-to-build-luxury-house-to-be-returned/

Yes, this chief is the face of "indigenous fishing rights" in Nova Scotia right now that is causing such a hubbub. All across Canada people who don't understand the situation jump on his side and call the fishermen trying to make him follow the fishing seasons for conservation "racist" trying to deny them a modest living lol. Meanwhile like everyone in the know in Nova Scotia, including other First nations in Nova Scotia hate his guts and try to explain to the media who this guy is to no avail. A huge conglomerate of First Nations recently bought Clearwater fishing, worth billions, and now he is fighting with THEM. But the media won't print that. Doesn't fit their "racist" narrative when its Natives fighting with Natives.

The Sack family was given 10 fishing boats worth 2.5 million dollars, equipment and training decades ago in an effort to help his band become able to give more bandmembers a modest living Lobster fishing. Instead jerry Sack sold the 10 boats for 1.2m dollars and leased the Lobster licenses out to non tribe fishermen and kept the profits, only allowing a little to trickle to the band he supposed to take care of.

Now he sees dollar signs in Lobster fishing out of season to corner the market, so he is fishing during molting season, which will ultimately harm stocks and endanger the supply of Lobster in the future and calling it "racist" when they try to stop him.

So yeah, that's our situation. What's yours? Which are you referring to? Each band has its History

I know in certain parts of America, the US troops armed certain bands so they could wipe out other bands and make deals with them, and that some tribes sided with the french in their battles and then lost. but I would need to look at which specific scenario you are referring to to understand what point you are even trying to make

In this case the muslim sultan, who had control of that territory for hundreds of years , sold tons and tons of land to the jewish for the purpose of them returning to the holy land. And then after taking their money, evicted and killed a bunch of them in ww1.

 

[Halifax]

Israel was founded by terrorist you ignorant little git, and they elected several of their PM's from those internationally recognized terrorist groups. Palestinians have every right to fight back against the illegal occupation of the WB and the blockade/siege of Gaza. Only a sad demented hasbara troll would defend an apartheid state.

 

[BIKES!]

Just checking in to see if SherIsis kept this empty OP thread up that blatantly breaks their rules. SherIsis gonna SherIsis

 

[Islam Imamate]

I'm talking about the ones living in Israel that have a citizenship. CHristian Arabs are the most well educated group in Israel and their social economic status is on par with the Jews. The Druze are even of the best soldiers in the IDF, they were the best performing battalion in Lebanon for example.

And this is why people call Israel an Apartheid state, Israeli sovereignty over all but one set of laws for those on one side of the wall and another for the ones over the wall.

As for those guys, sure I'm not pretending all non-Jews under Israeli sovereignty are treated the way the people in the occupied territories are but let's not pretend the Israeli state is neutral towards its demographic make up. Its very much conscious of its overall demographics as well as the demographics of certain regions within Israel proper and the occupied territories, hence the "realities on the ground" line they like to use. They expand settlements in the occupied territories until they can say the "realities on the ground" don't allow for that land to go to a hypothetical Palestinian state. Its also why, as evidenced by the Sheikh Jarrah incident, they want to move in as many Jews into East Jerusalem as possible and move out as many Palestinians because they ultimately want to claim all of Jerusalem and once the demographics justify it the state will claim that the "realities on the ground" don't allow for East Jerusalem to become the capital of a hypothetical Palestinian state. Do they ever use non-Jewish Israeli citizens for this purpose? As far as I know, no not really.

Its also why you dodged my point there, because you'd have to admit that the reason Israel will heavily resist any attempt at a one state solution with equal rights for all is because it would radically alter Israeli demographics in favor of non-Jews. Same reason they resist right of return.

 

[Halifax]

Religious birthplace? What kind of nonsense is this? The Jews gained Israel after the time of Moses about 3200 years ago. They were kicked out of that land by the Romans after they rejected their own Messiah and suffered the consequences. The Romans expelled the Jews from Jerusalem around 100AD, destroyed the Temple and allowed no Jews to live there. This means the Jews ruled over the land for around 1300 years. After they rejected Jesus almost 2000 years passed before they came back to terrorize the Palestinians and claim the land was there's by God given right. 2000 years! For comparison consider that it has been less than 500 years since the Native Americans lost America to the Europeans. You can't claim you ancestors owned some land 2000 years ago and so it belongs to you today. Secondly, the Muslims never took the land from the Jews. They took it from the Byzantines who ruled there at the advent of Islam. Consider also that the Muslims gained the land of Israel around 700 AD and then lost it recently meaning they also ruled over it for about 1300 years. The two groups, one the children of Abraham through Issac and the other the children of Abraham through Ishmael both ruled Israel for about 1300 years and today they fight over it. In this is a sign for those who believe in God.

This is the pact the leader of the Muslims signed with the inhabitants of Jerusalem (which the Romans called Aelia) in 638AD.

«In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. This is the assurance of safety which the servant of God, ʿUmar, the Commander of the Faithful, has given to the people of Aelia(Jerusalem). He has given them an assurance of safety for themselves, for their property, their churches, their crosses, the sick and healthy of the city and for all the rituals which belong to their religion. Their churches will not be inhabited by Muslims and will not be destroyed. Neither they, nor the land on which they stand, nor their cross, nor their property will be damaged. They will not be forcibly converted. And Jews will not live in Aelia with them. The people of Jerusalem must pay the taxes like the people of other cities and must expel the Byzantines and the robbers. Those of the people of Jerusalem who want to leave with the Byzantines, take their property and abandon their churches and crosses will be safe until they reach their place of refuge. The villagers [who had taken refuge in the city at the time of the conquest] may remain in the city if they wish but must pay taxes like the citizens. Those who wish may go with the Byzantines and those who wish may return to their families. Nothing is to be taken from them before their harvest is reaped. If they pay their taxes according to their obligations, then the conditions laid out in this letter are under the covenant of God, are the responsibility of His Prophet, of the caliphs and of the faithful. Witnessed by: Khālid b. Walīd; ʿAmr b. al-ʿĀs; ʿAbd al-Rahmān b. al-ʿAwf; Muʿāwiya b. Abī Sufyān.» -- al-Tabari

I see you like to leave out lots of history there bud. The multiple switching of control of Jerusalem in crusades, the multiple pilgrimages and immigration by Jews, sometimes invited, in huge numbers who settled only to be wiped out by the next generation of arabs. The ottoman Sultans opened it as a seat for all religions in the 1500's, which lead to more jewish mass immigration(and some revolts by the anti semetic). The most well known synagogue in Jerusalem was built in 1700 and stood until it was destroyed by the Arab legion in 1948.

But yeah keep saying they had not come back in 2000 years.

Since the muslim sultan had control of that land for hundreds of years and decided to sell it en masse to jewish residents after all. And then evicted them in ww1 after taking their money. Where do you stand there? Tough shit for them?

Just checking in to see if SherIsis kept this empty OP thread up that blatantly breaks their rules. SherIsis gonna SherIsis

SherQaeda always had a better ring to it.

 

[dannialn]

And this is why people call Israel an Apartheid state, Israeli sovereignty over all but one set of laws for those on one side of the wall and another for the ones over the wall.

As for those guys, sure I'm not pretending all non-Jews under Israeli sovereignty are treated the way the people in the occupied territories are but let's not pretend the Israeli state is neutral towards its demographic make up. Its very much conscious of its overall demographics as well as the demographics of certain regions within Israel proper and the occupied territories, hence the "realities on the ground" line they like to use. They expand settlements in the occupied territories until they can say the "realities on the ground" don't allow for that land to go to a hypothetical Palestinian state. Its also why, as evidenced by the Sheikh Jarrah incident, they want to move in as many Jews into East Jerusalem as possible and move out as many Palestinians because they ultimately want to claim all of Jerusalem and once the demographics justify it the state will claim that the "realities on the ground" don't allow for East Jerusalem to become the capital of a hypothetical Palestinian state. Do they ever use non-Jewish Israeli citizens for this purpose? As far as I know, no not really.

Its also why you dodged my point there, because you'd have to admit that the reason Israel will heavily resist any attempt at a one state solution with equal rights for all is because it would radically alter Israeli demographics in favor of non-Jews. Same reason they resist right of return.

What point did I dodge? That the two state solution is a possibility but a demographic problem? I have nothing to add or contradict that.

Of course Israel has different sets of laws for non-citizens, al countries do. But fact that 20% of the Israeli population are Arabs with equal rights and representation, many of whom even server in the IDF, is often ignored and doesn't sit well with the `Apartheid` accusations.
No country is, or should be, ignorant about its demographics, that's why you a have caps on immigration and refugees. What country in the world would agree to change its political, religious, ethnic, etc demographic in a swing of a finger?
I'm not dismissing the mistreatment and atrocities of the illegal settlements and occupation. But the accusation that its all to exterminate or displace all Palestinians are disconnected from reality, in which every fifth Israeli citizen is an Arab of Palestinian descent, a population which has been steadily growing, progressing and integrating.

Yes, many asshole settlers act by trying to create `realities on the ground`. Same claim that the Palestinians in Sheikh Jarrah have, btw. I would've been glad if most of that was evicted and a Palestinian nation esablished in the WB.
It is however, a tough prescription to sell after what happened in Gaza after Israel left and evicted its' settlements there. And the WB is right in the center of Israel, a totally different ball game in terms of security.

 

[Factory]

Trouble for israeli media... lynching of Arab by Jewish mob

 

[Islam Imamate]

What point did I dodge? That the two state solution is a possibility but a demographic problem? I have nothing to add or contradict that.

Of course Israel has different sets of laws for non-citizens, al countries do. But fact that 20% of the Israeli population are Arabs with equal rights and representation, many of whom even server in the IDF, is often ignored and doesn't sit well with the `Apartheid` accusations.
No country is, or should be, ignorant about its demographics, that's why you a have caps on immigration and refugees. What country in the world would agree to change its political, religious, ethnic, etc demographic in a swing of a finger?
I'm not dismissing the mistreatment and atrocities of the illegal settlements and occupation. But the accusation that its all to exterminate or displace all Palestinians are disconnected from reality, in which every fifth Israeli citizen is an Arab of Palestinian descent, a population which has been steadily growing, progressing and integrating.

Yes, many asshole settlers act by trying to create `realities on the ground`. Same claim that the Palestinians in Sheikh Jarrah have, btw. I would've been glad if most of that was evicted and a Palestinian nation esablished in the WB.
It is however, a tough prescription to sell after what happened in Gaza after Israel left and evicted its' settlements there. And the WB is right in the center of Israel, a totally different ball game in terms of security.

What countries restrict the movements of their non-citizens the way Israel does? How many erect a wall around them and fire upon them if those non-citizens step out of line? How many subject them to the kind of checkpoint system that Israel has? There's no comparison between the way Israel treats the Palestinians in the occupied territories and the way other nations treat non-citizens, its an absolutely absurd comparison. Compare how the Native Americans are treated here, they have their own reservations but they're freely allowed to come and go. Are the Palestinians in the occupied territories allowed this privilege?

Sure no country wants to change its demographics in the blink of an eye but most countries aren't setting up an Apartheid regimes and most countries tend to try to integrate those under their sovereignty unlike Israel. The countries that don't do this, such as those like the Chinese with the Uighurs and the Turks with the Kurds, are often criticized for it.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Trouble for israeli media... lynching of Arab by Jewish mob

Oh look, one of the well integrated Arab-Israelis I've been hearing about.

 

[Samjj]

Huh? I never denied it but like I said it has precious little to do with the current conflict other than figuring into the mythology of Zionism.

It matters because it undermines your dishonest sleight of hands. You say that Jews have a historic presence in the region as if its the Jewish population that continuously lived in Israel that drove the Zionist movement when it was recent migrants from Europe who did.


https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots-1.5411201


Hardcore projecting here buddy, you're the one jumping all over the place and dishonestly framing your claims.

Christian Arabs are also subjected to eviction if they live in the occupied territories. If Israel wanted to grant citizenship to all Palestinians living in the occupied territories and integrate them into Israeli society equally under the law that'd be fine, actually preferable. Two state solution is dead in the water and the world doesn't need another Arab state, if anything it needs fewer but that's a conversation for another thread.

You’re categorically dishonest in your deciding which pieces of history are relevant to the discourse and which not. You also have a fundamental misunderstanding of one side of the conflict and resist every opportunity to do so. Fare thee well Kafir, I hope you find gainful employment and a loving partner someday.

 

[dannialn]

What countries restrict the movements of their non-citizens the way Israel does? How many erect a wall around them and fire upon them if those non-citizens step out of line? How many subject them to the kind of checkpoint system that Israel has? There's no comparison between the way Israel treats the Palestinians in the occupied territories and the way other nations treat non-citizens, its an absolutely absurd comparison. Compare how the Native Americans are treated here, they have their own reservations but they're freely allowed to come and go. Are the Palestinians in the occupied territories allowed this privilege?

Sure no country wants to change its demographics in the blink of an eye but most countries aren't setting up an Apartheid regimes and most countries tend to try to integrate those under their sovereignty unlike Israel. The countries that don't do this, such as those like the Chinese with the Uighurs and the Turks with the Kurds, are often criticized for it.

Do the native americans form organizations that oppose the US existence, bomb major US cities and carry out terror attacks against civilians while paying a monthly salary to those that succeed in killing as many innocents as possible?
I seem to remember the US in a coalition with other western governments actually invading and bringing colossal numbers of death and destruction to countries on the other side of the globe(!) after just one terror attack (as horrifying as it was). I could only imagine the lengths the US would go to if the mexican cartels started shelling LA.
And again, if it was a racially motivated Apartheid, how come none of that is true for the Palestinians that are Israeli citizens? No checkpoints, no walls, no nothing.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

Saying Palestinians are a "modern creation" is like saying "Native Americans" were created only a few centuries ago.

He is right, they were Levantine Arabs mostly before their struggle with the Jews shaped their identity.