Armatix Smart Gun

Uchi Mata said:
Let's be clear: I am more dangerous than I would be if I were untrained. Even responsible gun owners are more dangerous than they would be without guns. Their ability to inflict harm is upped by the gun whether they use it or not. SUV drivers likewise are more dangerous than Smart Car drivers, your chances of being killed in a collision with an SUV are much greater than if you hit a Smart Car.

That's a little beside the point though. Many things are dangerous. We cook on stoves, but they can burn the hell out of you. We drive cars, many people die in car wrecks. But the point of stoves and cars is not to intimidate and harm. If you're openly carrying a gun in public, what's the point other than to intimidate and show how dangerous you are? Gun people love to point out that guns are just tools. Fair enough. But that doesn't absolve the pro-gun lobby of taking responsibility for the very high level of danger that 'tool' entails, or make any allowances for the culture of violence as a first option that seems to me to be deeply embedded among American gun lovers. When I see threads like Byron Carter likes to make about people coming home from the store to their house getting robbed and they rush in with a gun and save the day, that scares me. Why? Because in that situation you should call the cops, not endanger yourself and potentially your family by starting a shootout. What I draw from stories like that and the responses to them are that many gun owners fantasize about being the white knight who kicks ass and saves the day, when the world really doesn't work like that. When in reality you're more likely to shoot a family member than an intruder. The level of delusion and fantasy about guns among certain gun owners is what alarms me, as is the glorification of deadly violence. So are guns just tools? Yes. But the culture that surrounds them makes their owners on the whole much more dangerous than, say, car drivers or people cooking dinner even though they both are using dangerous tools.
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I appreciate the thought out response. And lack of name calling and other silly nonsense.

I have said before, I am not a fan of open carry for various reasons. It is tactically unsound, gets you shot first in any kind of altercation, and weapon retention becomes an issue.

I agree on the culture of some in the gun rights crowd of glorifying violent conflict. I've mentioned that as well when discussing the militias out in BLM land in Nevada. It sounds all well and good to "stand up to the man" but it becomes a different story when bullets start flying and real people start dying.

With all that, I still believe responsible gun ownership(yes such a thing exists) is one of the backbones of the US. It is an individual right, that should not be infringed on lightly.

Even as a cop, I am ok with CCW holders. They are generally the small sliver of the population who will come help me when a suspect is kicking my ass instead of standing there filming me for youtube.
 
Scrody said:
You see a guy walking down the street with a bat and assume he's on his way to play baseball? I wouldn't lol unless he had some friends that had mitts and gloves. Thats the idea of concealed carry, you don't know who is carrying. Open carry is a whole other discussion. The only time I open carry is in the woods. Otherwise I agree for the most part. I will admit there is a certain amount of gun owners that are a tad worrying, but we all aren't like that. If we met one another, you wouldn't think I was armed or even liked guns.
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Why do normal people who happen to own guns let the extremists dominate the conversation? The NRA claims to speak for all gun owners and is pretty extreme, I never see any gun owners say anything against the NRA's positions. I don't think it's improper for the left to regard most gun owners as extremists because the extremists are the only ones in the public eye making you all sound crazy and dangerous. One reason I basically never vote GOP despite agreeing with their positions on some issues is that is seems like support for completely unfettered gun rights is a litmus test for candidacy. There are no moderates in the gun debate as far as I can tell.
 
Protectandserve said:
I appreciate the thought out response. And lack of name calling and other silly nonsense.

I have said before, I am not a fan of open carry for various reasons. It is tactically unsound, gets you shot first in any kind of altercation, and weapon retention becomes an issue.

I agree on the culture of some in the gun rights crowd of glorifying violent conflict. I've mentioned that as well when discussing the militias out in BLM land in Nevada. It sounds all well and good to "stand up to the man" but it becomes a different story when bullets start flying and real people start dying.

With all that, I still believe responsible gun ownership(yes such a thing exists) is one of the backbones of the US. It is an individual right, that should not be infringed on lightly.

Even as a cop, I am ok with CCW holders. They are generally the small sliver of the population who will come help me when a suspect is kicking my ass instead of standing there filming me for youtube.
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I'm curious about your response to this:

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Open-Carry-Demonstrators-Scare-Fort-Worth-Employees-257751871.html

Not so much the open carry, but the statement the protester made at the end about cops needing the help of gun owners. That smacks of vigilantism to me, which is the kind of thing that really scares me (non-LEOs who think it's their right to take justice into their own hands and arm heavily to do so).
 
Protectandserve said:
Even as a cop, I am ok with CCW holders. They are generally the small sliver of the population who will come help me when a suspect is kicking my ass instead of standing there filming me for youtube.
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Interesting anecdote and helps confirm my personal beliefs based on the fellow CCW holders I've met.

Also lends some credence to the whole sheep, sheep-dog, wolf thing.

Some people just aren't made for confrontation/intervention/courageousness.
 
Uchi Mata said:
Why do normal people who happen to own guns let the extremists dominate the conversation? The NRA claims to speak for all gun owners and is pretty extreme, I never see any gun owners say anything against the NRA's positions. I don't think it's improper for the left to regard most gun owners as extremists because the extremists are the only ones in the public eye making you all sound crazy and dangerous. One reason I basically never vote GOP despite agreeing with their positions on some issues is that is seems like support for completely unfettered gun rights is a litmus test for candidacy. There are no moderates in the gun debate as far as I can tell.
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I'm a moderate in the gun debate. I'm not a member of the NRA. It's the same way hardcore gun owners assume anyone that wants to see firearms restricted is a bleeding heart liberal. There is always a huge silent majority on any issue. Blanket statements never help anything, they just make that silent majority pick extreme sides because there's never any middle ground. You can blame politics for that one, not the people.
 
45ACP said:
Most gun owners do not do this. In fact I'd bet there are a higher percentage of martial artists who try to project that image (covered in tats and affliction/tap out gear) than gun owners who do the same.

You've pointed out some of the differences but if you can't see the parallels between armed self-defense and unarmed self-defense I don't really know what else to say.

You simply refuse to acknowledge any point that doesn't fit your beliefs, even when it contradicts your own logic. You even freely admit in this very thread to holding opinions that are "illogical" and "silly" on the topic of gun ownership. How do you justify holding beliefs that you know to be illogical?

Please explain how your assertion that liking guns = liking killing is any different than saying liking martial arts = liking hurting people.
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Liking guns == liking killing is the illogical part. I mention it as illogical because I can't justify it. It's not a logical belief, any more than thinking you need guns to ward off tyranny is really a logical belief in 20th America. I say it's illogical because intellectually I know that most gun owners are perfectly law abiding an extremely unlikely to ever shoot anyone. I hold it because the conversation regarding guns is dominated by extremists who I think are ready if not eager to use violence, and that's the image that gets burned into my mind. So if you're talking about visceral reactions, which is what I was talking about in that post, that includes both logical and illogical beliefs. Maybe if I saw a single gun owner stand up and say 'you know, the NRA is a little too extreme on some of these things' or 'you know, it's really a bad thing that a bunch of militia wannabes threatened to shoot BLM agents in Nevada' it might start changing my mind. I'm still waiting.
 
Protectandserve said:
Even as a cop, I am ok with CCW holders. They are generally the small sliver of the population who will come help me when a suspect is kicking my ass instead of standing there filming me for youtube.
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I had a police officer tell me the same thing a week or so ago. Is a citizen legally able to assist a LEO if the LEO needs help? I always wondered about that.
 
Uchi Mata said:
I'm curious about your response to this:

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Open-Carry-Demonstrators-Scare-Fort-Worth-Employees-257751871.html

Not so much the open carry, but the statement the protester made at the end about cops needing the help of gun owners. That smacks of vigilantism to me, which is the kind of thing that really scares me (non-LEOs who think it's their right to take justice into their own hands and arm heavily to do so).
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The open carry protestors crowd got it banned in CA. They were extremely idiotic in their approach. Openly hostile with police in an attempt to "get their rights violated." There's a video out there of I believe Santa Ana PD checking on a guy carrying a rifle. Cop is polite and well spoken to the guy. Guy comes across as an ass to the cop with how he talks. Cop sends him on his way after a brief explanation of why he stopped to talk to him and the guy looks upset that the cop did not go jackbooted thug on him.

If people have a hard time understanding why a room full of people freak out when they walk in with rifles (slung or not) I really don't know what to say.

Also, people need to be very well versed in the law to know when they can or cannot intervene in a situation. They also need to know what to do when the cops show up so they don't get shot by mistake as well(something trained by police for use in off duty situations).
 
Scrody said:
I'm a moderate in the gun debate. I'm not a member of the NRA. It's the same way hardcore gun owners assume anyone that wants to see firearms restricted is a bleeding heart liberal. There is always a huge silent majority on any issue. Blanket statements never help anything, they just make that silent majority pick extreme sides because there's never any middle ground. You can blame politics for that one, not the people.
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There are nationally elected democrats who are moderately pro-gun. Are there any prominent republican office holders who are moderately pro-gun control? I doubt it, because I don't think they could get elected. I feel like there's a lot more room for diversity of viewpoints on the left on this issue (not all, by any means) than is allowed for on the GOP side.
 
Scrody said:
I had a police officer tell me the same thing a week or so ago. Is a citizen legally able to assist a LEO if the LEO needs help? I always wondered about that.
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Yes. I've seen it done, had people help me with a few situations but never anything serious. Mostly medical aids, somewhat uncooperative suspects or just holding someone down, keying the radio, etc.

You'd have to be extremely careful pulling a gun to help a cop. There is a big chance you get shot by responding cops, depending on the info given by dispatch to them. One of the reasons I carry my badge, a police raid jacket and vest in my car when off duty. Stuff I can throw on to be easily ID'd as a fellow good guy.
 
Uchi Mata said:
Are there any prominent republican office holders who are moderately pro-gun control?
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Chris Crispy is GOP and is a strong supporter of gun control. Schwarzenegger was pretty pro-gun control too. Bloomburg was a republican when he was mayor of NYC. Just a couple examples but yeah, they're out there.

They normally only succeed in liberal areas (like NJ, CA and NYC).
 
Uchi Mata said:
There are nationally elected democrats who are moderately pro-gun. Are there any prominent republican office holders who are moderately pro-gun control? I doubt it, because I don't think they could get elected. I feel like there's a lot more room for diversity of viewpoints on the left on this issue (not all, by any means) than is allowed for on the GOP side.
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Well I will admit you got me there lol that's one of the only things I agree with republicans on. Even on here, most people assume I'm a hardcore conservative. I can't tell you how many times I've been labelled a conservitard just because I'm a fan of guns. Those people push me to the far right, even though I don't agree with a whole lot of what they have to say. I just feel like the bleeding hearts always look for a quick solution to complex problems that require a little more thought than just "ban guns." It's not a gun problem, you said yourself yesterday that Switzerland has high gun ownership, but very little gun crime. We're a violent nation, and I'm not in favor of restrictions that are only feel good legislation that does little to actually solve the problem of gun crime. Any further legislation will take away rights of the law abiding people, because the criminals are already committing crimes. They don't care about laws.
 
Protectandserve said:
Yes. I've seen it done, had people help me with a few situations but never anything serious. Mostly medical aids, somewhat uncooperative suspects or just holding someone down, keying the radio, etc.

You'd have to be extremely careful pulling a gun to help a cop. There is a big chance you get shot by responding cops, depending on the info given by dispatch to them. One of the reasons I carry my badge, a police raid jacket and vest in my car when off duty. Stuff I can throw on to be easily ID'd as a fellow good guy.
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Yeah I didn't mean pulling a weapon to assist lol just like if you're rolling around on the ground with a suspect and it's clearly getting out of control, say I walked up and choked the guy out while you are able to put the cuffs on him, am I in the clear?
 
Scrody said:
Yeah I didn't mean pulling a weapon to assist lol just like if you're rolling around on the ground with a suspect and it's clearly getting out of control, say I walked up and choked the guy out while you are able to put the cuffs on him, am I in the clear?
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At my department, you'd get a challenge coin and a thank you letter from at least my supervisor and probably the chief of police. Legally you should be good to go.
 
Protectandserve said:
At my department, you'd get a challenge coin and a thank you letter from at least my supervisor and probably the chief of police. Legally you should be good to go.
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Right on. Good to know lol although i probably don't have to worry about that. Most of the cops in my city are nuclear lol
 
Scrody said:
Yeah I didn't mean pulling a weapon to assist lol just like if you're rolling around on the ground with a suspect and it's clearly getting out of control, say I walked up and choked the guy out while you are able to put the cuffs on him, am I in the clear?
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In PA we are allowed to use deadly force to intervene to defend the victim during a violent felony (rape, murder, kidnapping, etc). So if a cop (or anyone) was in the process of being murdered, I could legally shoot the attacker.

Just FYI. Not all states have such a law.
 
Why doesn't anybody mention the other benefit to this technology? No more stolen guns.
 
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