Arm Trianglez: Trouble in a Gangster's Paradise

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bagelgod

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Dear f12,

Thanks to Ryan Hall's Arm Triangle DVDs, I found myself going for this more in class. Previously I had abstained, as I hated putting a wicked crank on folks. I personally wake up every morning with a burning/grinding feeling in my neck from dudes who suck at arm triangles, so I try not to inflict the same on others.

However, Ryan Hall has shown me the err of my ways. I've been hitting the choke pretty reliably in class, but I've come across the following issue. Against strong guys, I cannot for the life of me get their arm up by their head after I duck under. Their arm will be 90 degrees from their neck, and they're so strong I can't move it. Even at 45 degrees, they can still close their chicken winged arm to their ribs, crushing my head in the process. Even when I've jumped across the body, using my pitiful leg strength, I can't push their arm up.

Now, granted, some of these guys are strong enough to lift a grown man off the ground as they are being armbarred. That being said, given that I've fallen in love with the arm triangle, it feels like I'm missing some kind of technical detail that is ruining my life.

Regards,
bagelgod
 
Sounds like they are defending it. Arm bar them
 
If you can't get it I wouldn't waste energy forcing it. Transition to something else.
 
You have to get the arm up high before you put your head to the mat. Also are they setting themselves up for the Von Flue when they crush your head?
 
kietzmanc said:
You have to get the arm up high before you put your head to the mat. Also are they setting themselves up for the Von Flue when they crush your head?
Click to expand...

Considering ts says he has the arm triangle at least set up, and can be on the same side, I really don't see how the Von Flue comes in here.

Bagelgod, I find I have the best luck when rolling with the bigger guys to use my chest to move their arm.
 
Ryan shows some ways to get the arm out of position BEFORE settling into the finishing position. Basically a lot of it boils down to either using some kind of circular/angular pressure in order to force the arm in a direction in which it has no support, or better yet, make him stick his arm out for you in some manner, e.g. by grinding your forehead under his chin and tempting him to push your head away, then batting it out of position and closing off the space.

If you don't kill the arm sufficiently before settling into finishing position, arm triangles can be very difficult to finish. Once you have taken the space away, though, even a strong opponent should not be able to reclaim it.
 
Vitamin C said:
Considering ts says he has the arm triangle at least set up, and can be on the same side, I really don't see how the Von Flue comes in here.

Bagelgod, I find I have the best luck when rolling with the bigger guys to use my chest to move their arm.
Click to expand...

bagelgod said:
Dear f12,

Thanks to Ryan Hall's Arm Triangle DVDs, I found myself going for this more in class. Previously I had abstained, as I hated putting a wicked crank on folks. I personally wake up every morning with a burning/grinding feeling in my neck from dudes who suck at arm triangles, so I try not to inflict the same on others.

However, Ryan Hall has shown me the err of my ways. I've been hitting the choke pretty reliably in class, but I've come across the following issue. Against strong guys, I cannot for the life of me get their arm up by their head after I duck under. Their arm will be 90 degrees from their neck, and they're so strong I can't move it. Even at 45 degrees, they can still close their chicken winged arm to their ribs, crushing my head in the process. Even when I've jumped across the body, using my pitiful leg strength, I can't push their arm up.

Now, granted, some of these guys are strong enough to lift a grown man off the ground as they are being armbarred. That being said, given that I've fallen in love with the arm triangle, it feels like I'm missing some kind of technical detail that is ruining my life.

Regards,
bagelgod
Click to expand...

Note bold, maybe i'm getting the wrong picture but it seemed like that was a problem before he moved over to the other side.
 
This set kicks ass. All of Ryan's instructionals do. Like others have said try to transition to something else. Strong guys are typically, not always, somewhat slower. I'm 150 and can't bulky anyone but I can out transition them. So throw submissions like jabs once they're on their heels go for your attack. Otherwise it's like throwing heavy overhand rights all the time, easy to defend. Just my two cents.
 
Vitamin C said:
Considering ts says he has the arm triangle at least set up, and can be on the same side, I really don't see how the Von Flue comes in here.

Bagelgod, I find I have the best luck when rolling with the bigger guys to use my chest to move their arm.
Click to expand...

i'd been "von flued" by my old instructor many times when i'd defend the arm triangle with the "hold the phone" defense...not sure exactly how he did it, he had long skinny arms which i think helped with the transition between the two (arm triangle to von flue).
 
The Von Flue, as far as I know, is just an arm triangle finished on the 'wrong' side by compensating with a really heavy shoulder of justice while the opponent leaves his arm in position to be choked on the other side (hanging on to the guillotine). If the guy is 'answering the phone', you'll still finish it as an arm triangle/side choke if your pressure is going into his shoulder instead of his arm (as it should). Might take some time, but IMO you should win that battle eventually.
 
ironmanbret said:
i'd been "von flued" by my old instructor many times when i'd defend the arm triangle with the "hold the phone" defense...not sure exactly how he did it, he had long skinny arms which i think helped with the transition between the two (arm triangle to von flue).
Click to expand...

This is what I'm talking about. The person in position for the arm triangle (ts) would be the one in position to threaten the Von Flue.
If anything strongman-defender would be attempting a bad headlock, wrong side guillotine.
 
kietzmanc said:
You have to get the arm up high before you put your head to the mat. Also are they setting themselves up for the Von Flue when they crush your head?
Click to expand...

Oh snap. I apologize, I read your post wrong. I see what you're saying now. Yes, ts could hunt for the Von Flue if they are fool enough to wrap their wrist under his head. If they are t-rex'ed and just closing their elbow to their ribs, the Von Flue won't be there imo.
 
You can also lock his wrist in the army triangle and drive forward. It's like an arm lock, it'll hurt everything.
 
Pull their arm down like you are going for an Americana with your legs. When they defend that, slide their arm over for the triangle. These two moves flow together like an armbar and triangle from guard.
 
neverletup said:
Head and arm chokes can waste your muscle energy, marcello doesn't use arm I'm chokes for this reason he says it is better to use both of your arms against just the guys neck that way it doesn't really matter how big the person is
Click to expand...

I know Marcelo is the king of kings, but unless there is a massive size difference, anyone should be able to finish arm-in chokes with very little effort if their technique is right. The anaconda is the only arm-in choke I still have to put a little umph onto at times. Everything Ryan shows on the set (mainly the set is on the brabo/darce, arm triangle, and ezekiel) can be finished with zero strength. Although he also covers the high-elbow guillotines, north-south chokes, etc.

As Ryan Hall says on the set, SO many instructors teach chokes wrong (mostly squeeze with some attention to limb positioning) that there's a big perception that arm-in chokes require strength and that's just not the case. Just locking the position and holding should be enough to put people out if your arms are in the right place. I think Marcelo's philosophy is great, but being able to use these other tools is a great thing.
 
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