Arm Trianglez: Trouble in a Gangster's Paradise

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by bagelgod, Jan 17, 2013.

  1. bagelgod

    bagelgod Green Belt

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    Dear f12,

    Thanks to Ryan Hall's Arm Triangle DVDs, I found myself going for this more in class. Previously I had abstained, as I hated putting a wicked crank on folks. I personally wake up every morning with a burning/grinding feeling in my neck from dudes who suck at arm triangles, so I try not to inflict the same on others.

    However, Ryan Hall has shown me the err of my ways. I've been hitting the choke pretty reliably in class, but I've come across the following issue. Against strong guys, I cannot for the life of me get their arm up by their head after I duck under. Their arm will be 90 degrees from their neck, and they're so strong I can't move it. Even at 45 degrees, they can still close their chicken winged arm to their ribs, crushing my head in the process. Even when I've jumped across the body, using my pitiful leg strength, I can't push their arm up.

    Now, granted, some of these guys are strong enough to lift a grown man off the ground as they are being armbarred. That being said, given that I've fallen in love with the arm triangle, it feels like I'm missing some kind of technical detail that is ruining my life.

    Regards,
    bagelgod
     
  2. tagnik

    tagnik Orange Belt

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    Sounds like they are defending it. Arm bar them
     
  3. Newcastle

    Newcastle Brown Belt

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    If you can't get it I wouldn't waste energy forcing it. Transition to something else.
     
  4. Discipulus

    Discipulus Black Belt

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    Bro, you gotta soften 'em up with punches first.
     
  5. kietzmanc

    kietzmanc Orange Belt

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    You have to get the arm up high before you put your head to the mat. Also are they setting themselves up for the Von Flue when they crush your head?
     
  6. richmFTW

    richmFTW Blue Belt

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    lol great answer considering its a thread in the grappling technique forum :cool:
     
  7. Vitamin C

    Vitamin C Black Belt

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    Considering ts says he has the arm triangle at least set up, and can be on the same side, I really don't see how the Von Flue comes in here.

    Bagelgod, I find I have the best luck when rolling with the bigger guys to use my chest to move their arm.
     
  8. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    Ryan shows some ways to get the arm out of position BEFORE settling into the finishing position. Basically a lot of it boils down to either using some kind of circular/angular pressure in order to force the arm in a direction in which it has no support, or better yet, make him stick his arm out for you in some manner, e.g. by grinding your forehead under his chin and tempting him to push your head away, then batting it out of position and closing off the space.

    If you don't kill the arm sufficiently before settling into finishing position, arm triangles can be very difficult to finish. Once you have taken the space away, though, even a strong opponent should not be able to reclaim it.
     
  9. kietzmanc

    kietzmanc Orange Belt

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    Note bold, maybe i'm getting the wrong picture but it seemed like that was a problem before he moved over to the other side.
     
  10. Murdoch

    Murdoch Brown Belt

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    This set kicks ass. All of Ryan's instructionals do. Like others have said try to transition to something else. Strong guys are typically, not always, somewhat slower. I'm 150 and can't bulky anyone but I can out transition them. So throw submissions like jabs once they're on their heels go for your attack. Otherwise it's like throwing heavy overhand rights all the time, easy to defend. Just my two cents.
     
  11. ironmanbret

    ironmanbret White Belt

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    i'd been "von flued" by my old instructor many times when i'd defend the arm triangle with the "hold the phone" defense...not sure exactly how he did it, he had long skinny arms which i think helped with the transition between the two (arm triangle to von flue).
     
  12. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    The Von Flue, as far as I know, is just an arm triangle finished on the 'wrong' side by compensating with a really heavy shoulder of justice while the opponent leaves his arm in position to be choked on the other side (hanging on to the guillotine). If the guy is 'answering the phone', you'll still finish it as an arm triangle/side choke if your pressure is going into his shoulder instead of his arm (as it should). Might take some time, but IMO you should win that battle eventually.
     
  13. richmFTW

    richmFTW Blue Belt

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    lol :D
     
  14. Vitamin C

    Vitamin C Black Belt

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    This is what I'm talking about. The person in position for the arm triangle (ts) would be the one in position to threaten the Von Flue.
    If anything strongman-defender would be attempting a bad headlock, wrong side guillotine.
     
  15. kietzmanc

    kietzmanc Orange Belt

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    oops
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2013
  16. Vitamin C

    Vitamin C Black Belt

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    Oh snap. I apologize, I read your post wrong. I see what you're saying now. Yes, ts could hunt for the Von Flue if they are fool enough to wrap their wrist under his head. If they are t-rex'ed and just closing their elbow to their ribs, the Von Flue won't be there imo.
     
  17. Ice 9 Cobra

    Ice 9 Cobra Black Belt

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    You can also lock his wrist in the army triangle and drive forward. It's like an arm lock, it'll hurt everything.
     
  18. Dirty Holt

    Dirty Holt Black Belt Professional Fighter

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    Pull their arm down like you are going for an Americana with your legs. When they defend that, slide their arm over for the triangle. These two moves flow together like an armbar and triangle from guard.
     
  19. TriangleMan

    TriangleMan Purple Belt

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    HAHAHAHA I don't know why this made me laugh
     
  20. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    I know Marcelo is the king of kings, but unless there is a massive size difference, anyone should be able to finish arm-in chokes with very little effort if their technique is right. The anaconda is the only arm-in choke I still have to put a little umph onto at times. Everything Ryan shows on the set (mainly the set is on the brabo/darce, arm triangle, and ezekiel) can be finished with zero strength. Although he also covers the high-elbow guillotines, north-south chokes, etc.

    As Ryan Hall says on the set, SO many instructors teach chokes wrong (mostly squeeze with some attention to limb positioning) that there's a big perception that arm-in chokes require strength and that's just not the case. Just locking the position and holding should be enough to put people out if your arms are in the right place. I think Marcelo's philosophy is great, but being able to use these other tools is a great thing.
     

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