Arm Trianglez: Trouble in a Gangster's Paradise

Ryan shows some ways to get the arm out of position BEFORE settling into the finishing position. Basically a lot of it boils down to either using some kind of circular/angular pressure in order to force the arm in a direction in which it has no support, or better yet, make him stick his arm out for you in some manner, e.g. by grinding your forehead under his chin and tempting him to push your head away, then batting it out of position and closing off the space.

If you don't kill the arm sufficiently before settling into finishing position, arm triangles can be very difficult to finish. Once you have taken the space away, though, even a strong opponent should not be able to reclaim it.

I think this is an awesome answer. If you're dropping into the position before their shoulder is rolled into their neck (not saying you're doing this) then they have a lot of space to fight with. So basically, if you duck under, they know an arm triangle is likely, so they go ahead and keep the space between their neck and shoulder.

If you can wait for their arm to be raised, or possibly attack with something else to get their elbow above the plane of their neck, then that's a great time to dive under and settle in.

I don't know how far into the set you are but the 2nd and 3rd disc show some really cool ways to get their elbows away from their core, which when going for your arm triangles, brabos, anacondas...is really all you're looking for.

I credit Seph Smith with any arm triangle success I've had. I still never imagined finishing them with one arm, but after this DVD, I finished 2 on a real solid friend just holding the position with one arm. Once their shoulder rolls into their neck it's a wrap!
 
Head and arm chokes can waste your muscle energy, marcello doesn't use arm I'm chokes for this reason he says it is better to use both of your arms against just the guys neck that way it doesn't really matter how big the person is

I'm gonna agree with Drew here. Marcelo is maybe the best submission grappler in the world, and I'm just a shitty hobbyist, but IMO his reasoning for not using arm triangles very much (he does them in sparring now and then) is just not very sound. Most arm triangles, especially the side choke and brabo choke, utilize your positioning and body weight to create most of the pressure, and require very little arm strength with the proper setup. Of course, 90 % of BJJ practitioners finish their arm triangles in a pretty crude and inefficient manner, preferring to just lock their arms and squeeze until their opponent goes to sleep or they contract a hernia, which is less effective vs. big/strong opponents.

Now, it may be that choking just the neck is a bit more efficient, but you can be sure that if that's the only kind of choke you do, your opponent will be tucking his chin like crazy and making you work hard to get access to his neck. Marcelo deals with this mostly by having superb timing and attacking in transitions when the neck is open. However, if you use arm triangles, you can choke the opponent without having to get under his chin, and the opponent's response to most arm triangle threats (expanding his chest and posturing) will often make it easier to get under the chin for the neck-only chokes as well.
 
Now, it may be that choking just the neck is a bit more efficient, but you can be sure that if that's the only kind of choke you do, your opponent will be tucking his chin like crazy and making you work hard to get access to his neck. Marcelo deals with this mostly by having superb timing and attacking in transitions when the neck is open. However, if you use arm triangles, you can choke the opponent without having to get under his chin, and the opponent's response to most arm triangle threats (expanding his chest and posturing) will often make it easier to get under the chin for the neck-only chokes as well.

Mind=blown. I feel like I innately felt that way, but I was never able to express it like this. Hats off and thank you!
 
You don't know how much I wish this MMA site had an MMA tech forum.

A good idea, actually. I watched Josh Barnett vs. Randy Couture, and I really wanted to post a thread to discuss his technique of pushing Randy's head away in his guard so that Randy reacts by pushing back in, and ends up headbutting Barnett's elbow strike. I just didn't know where to post it.
 
A good idea, actually. I watched Josh Barnett vs. Randy Couture, and I really wanted to post a thread to discuss his technique of pushing Randy's head away in his guard so that Randy reacts by pushing back in, and ends up headbutting Barnett's elbow strike. I just didn't know where to post it.

It stuns me there isn't one.

And I haven't seen that fight, but are you saying Josh pushes his head with say his left arm then drops that elbow down and strikes with his right?
 
IDK, I've rolled with some pretty big guys not saying my arm triangle technique is perfect but when you roll with a guy that is 220 with massive shoulders whether your technique is perfect or not I think its very hard to do and will waste alot of muscle energy , no one just lets your cross the arm over people will post their hand on their face ,elbow to your head and not let that arm go across so then it comes to a squeezing game

EDIT: after a while people will get good at defending guillotines and RNC if you keep getting them but thats part of the game , theres a reason marcello can hit it on anyone he didn't give up on it when people started defending it well and found away around their defences making him better and better at it

Like I said, you can't just force the arm across on someone strong, you have to kill the arm in an intelligent manner, i.e. encourage him to put it out of position for you, either in a positional transition, or as he uses it to push to defend against something else you are doing. You then only have to give the arm a little nudge as you drop into position and tighten everything up so he can't make space again. There are also ways of simply using superior leverage to force the arm into position, but against real beasts, I think the former strategy is the easiest. If he manages to 'answer the phone' once you are in a decent finishing position with most of the space killed, you probably have the leverage to choke right through his defense if your pressure goes into his shoulder (if you put your pressure into his triceps, like 99 % of BJJ players do with the arm triangle, his defense will work). If that somehow doesn't cut it, there are also numerous ways to peel his hand away from his face.

Now, if you do come across a guy who is so big and strong that he is able to maintain posture and negate your arm triangle pressure, his defense still opens up his neck for your RNC, guillotine and North-South choke, a reaction you may not have gotten otherwise. Not every attack in your arsenal has to be with the intent of finishing; sometimes a predictable reaction is almost just as valuable.

In any event, though, I don't believe that a proper arm triangle should ever turn into a 'squeezing game'; you should only be squeezing to eliminate the last remnant of space within the choke, while you use your weight and position (or the shoulder-drop if doing a 'blade' choke like the brabo or Ezekiel) to exert the pressure. Yes, you will probably squeeze as hard as you can when going for the finish in an actual fight or tournament, but that's just icing on the cake, and should only be to speed up the tap.

As for what you say about Marcelo not giving up on the RNC or guillotine and finding ways around the opponents' defense, I don't see why the same can't apply to arm triangles. Just as Marcelo has found the right leverage and right timing to get under a big, strong opponent's chin, an arm triangle expert can find the right leverage and timing to get a big, strong opponent's arm out of position. I'm sure Milton Vieira taps big guys all the time in training with arm triangles.

Now, Marcelo may not have the ideal build for becoming an arm triangle specialist, as he has very short arms (though this is not a problem with all arm triangles), but that doesn't mean that his dismissal of arm triangles as some kind of strength move is entirely accurate. Don't get me wrong, I listen attentively when Marcelo speaks on grappling, but he tends to categorically dismiss a lot of moves that others are currently winning world championships with (arm triangles, DLR guard etc.), and I think this is more his way of staying focused on the techniques he really believes in, than an actual rejection of these other moves' validity.
 


This video nicely explains the point of putting pressure into the opponent's shoulder rather than the triceps.
 
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