Opinion Are we on a path to rational fascism?

[IGotAHugePeckah]

Antifa is a direct response to the fascist leanings of the American alt-right. Not saying I condone their conduct but you can't sweep away the fact that by and large conservatives have always tended to be more authoritarian. If we ever end up in some sort of fascist state it'll be because conservatives in charge lead us there out of a reactionary fear against the purple-haired battle sluts (much respect @Higus) who in reality have almost zero political power.

All that said, freedom of speech is one of our most sacred rights, and I condemn anyone right or left who wants to suppress speech. Gross speech and hate speech is protected speech, and we need to hear it. The trend from my fellow lefties to try and suppress said speech is not only un-American it's also wrong, it further radicalizes not only the fringe bu fence-riders, since they see that one side is just trying to suppress speech and isn't actually going after it, and it will ultimately come back to bite us.

I agree with you that, historically, the right has been more about fascism, but in my view Antifa have more closely resembled fascism than the alt-right ever has.

When people think of the alt-right, they think of that one scumbag who ran over that woman in Charlottesville. But I can't recall the alt-right trying to censor speech and having events shut down, going to Hillary/Democratic events and hitting people with bike locks, assaulting the media (who are off limits even in real war zones) and destroying their equipment. I don't see the alt-right making efforts to have left wing personalities deplatformed, or trying to decide what people can and can't read, listen to, or think.

 

[AngryPorto]

So when they attack Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro they are attacking the alt-right?
When they call black people the N word and mexicans the S word because they are part of the military they are attacking the alt right???

They are just a bitter bunch of pussy white skinny bitch ass cowards wearing a HOOD, er, I mean MASK attacking everyone who doesn't agree with them like a fucking fascist does.

Any time you see an ON THE NOSE name you know that word has nothing to do with their purpose.
Examples: Progress has nothing to do with progress. anti-fascist has nothing to do with being against fascism.

Hey, it is progress to say a man without a dick is a woman and can do women's powerlifting...no it is not antiscience, it is progress....we are progressives ffs!

Hey, we are antifascists...so what if we gank everyone we don't agree with like a fucking fascist...we are not fascists....I mean our name is fucking anti-fascists ffs!!!

Who needs to act out truth when all the truth you ever need is in your self given title???

I don't disagree with anything you brought up. I think JBP and Ben "Facts Don't Care About Your Feelings Except For the Dumb Non-factual Magical Shit I Believe In" Shapiro deserve to speak without being shouted down like anyone else. I want to actually counter their ideas and expose them as garbage, and we can't do that if they're being censored, correct.

I don't want trans-women competing with biological women in sports where physiology matters. They have an inherent advantage. I'm okay with trans-men competing with men since they are at an inherent disadvantage.

But you're giving WAY too much power to Antifa and dismissing why they're even here. Shapiro and JBP are not alt-right, agreed, but the right in this country has shifted so far to the right that they now look at Pelosi and Hillary as radical lefties. They are centrists at best, right-of-center even on some issues like regulating wall street, free trade, and war. Antifa is here countering fascists. Not well in many circumstances, but that's why they're here.

You've fallen victim to the culture war bullshit. You're of course free to worry about all those things, sure, but while you're worrying about crap that doesn't matter like what gender pronouns purple-haired battlesluts want you to use (respect @Higus), you're being tricked by the actual elite class (the wealthy, not academics) into fighting stupid distraction culture war shit while they run out the back with all the money.

 

[AngryPorto]

I agree with you that, historically, the right has been more about fascism, but in my view Antifa have more closely resembled fascism than the alt-right ever has.

When people think of the alt-right, they think of that one scumbag who ran over that woman in Charlottesville. But I can't recall the alt-right trying to censor speech and having events shut down, going to Hillary/Democratic events and hitting people with bike locks, assaulting the media (who are off limits even in real war zones) and destroying their equipment. I don't see the alt-right making efforts to have left wing personalities deplatformed, or trying to decide what people can and can't read, listen to, or think.

I am unilateraly against all forms of censorship. Freedom of Speech is sacred in this country and must be protected even for hate speech.
I don't agree with many of Antifa's tactics but you can't dismiss why they're here. The right in this country has shifted so far right that they are legit bordering on actual fascism. Look at the anti-BDS laws and the abortion laws they're passing. While people like you argue about college kids trying to de-platform charlatans, the actual far-right in this country are enacting fascist-lite policies. I'm sorry but I care more about that than a de-centralized group of kids lashing out at who they view as offensive. I condemn their tactics but I sympathize with their motives, and the false equivalency between Antifa and actual fascist-leaning conservatives in this country is very alarming.

 

[IGotAHugePeckah]

the false equivalency between Antifa and actual fascist-leaning conservatives in this country is very alarming.

I'm not advocating for a false equivalency. I don't think there's an equivalency to be made - it's pretty clear that Antifa are much worse than those they are fighting, at least if you care anything about freedom, law and order.

You say the far-right is enacting fascist-lite policies... like what, exactly? I'm not a fan of anti-BDS, but it failed in senate, and the abortion law passed in Alabama.

So how do you define fascism? It seems like you (and far leftists) view it as any law you personally disagree with, or any politician that is right of Bernie Sanders.

 

[AngryPorto]

I'm not advocating for a false equivalency. I don't think there's an equivalency to be made - it's pretty clear that Antifa are much worse than those they are fighting, at least if you care anything about freedom, law and order.

You say the far-right is enacting fascist-lite policies... like what, exactly? I'm not a fan of anti-BDS, but it failed in senate, and the abortion law passed in Alabama.

So how do you define fascism? It seems like you (and far leftists) view it as any law you personally disagree with, or any politician that is right of Bernie Sanders.

I wouldn't consider myself far-left. I'm a social democrat, left-of-center internationally. I may appear far left to you because the Overton Window in the United States is so far to the right. True far-leftists are post-capitalist socialists or communists, which I am not.

From wikipedia: Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical, right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism,[1][2][3][4] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy,[5] which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

Fascist policies the far-right in this country are for:
- Anti-BDS: literally a violation of free speech and a form of censorship. People like Shapiro, Dave Rubin, other trendy right-wing commentators are either quiet or completely wrong on this issue
- Anti-abortion laws as passed in several states in the south, Ohio, Missouri: I recognize this is a very charged issue. Ultimately however it is the government dictating to women what they can and can't do with their bodies. Again I recognize that this very premise is rejected by "pro-lifers" as they believe an unborn fetus is equivalent to a born child, but this is the perspective of pro-choicers
- Our INSANE "defense" budget, our numerous interventionist and illegal foreign wars against countries that didn't attack us, along with further militarization of police and our southern border
Not policies but rhetoric:
- Demonization of Central/South American refugees as less-than-human (some are good people though) despite the fact that the reason we have an immigration crisis in the first place is due to our horrible foreign policy towards Central and South America as well as our failed War on Drugs (which disproportionately subjugates minorities)
- Trump's rhetoric consists of shit like "Maybe I should get a 6-year term", his anti-press rhetoric (although I agree that mainstream media is garbage), his "lock her up" chants is literally him threatening to imprison his political opposition, and his general "Murica is the best" rhetoric even though the only metrics that show us in first place are defense spending and incarcerated citizens per capita. We may be the land of the free but we literally imprison more of our citizens than any other country, mostly for non-violent drug related shit.

I'm not saying we currently live in a fascist state but the inklings are there. This is why I care less about what stupid college kids shout at charlatans and more about what politicians and the president are actually saying and doing. Break out of the culture war bubble right-wing media tries to trap you in and look at the greater picture. And if you want sources or more examples let me know.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

Every family has cancer.

No, that simply isn't so.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I agree with you that, historically, the right has been more about fascism, but in my view Antifa have more closely resembled fascism than the alt-right ever has.

When people think of the alt-right, they think of that one scumbag who ran over that woman in Charlottesville. But I can't recall the alt-right trying to censor speech and having events shut down, going to Hillary/Democratic events and hitting people with bike locks, assaulting the media (who are off limits even in real war zones) and destroying their equipment. I don't see the alt-right making efforts to have left wing personalities deplatformed, or trying to decide what people can and can't read, listen to, or think.

https://www.professorwatchlist.org/
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/...ize-sonoma-state-president?artslide=0&sba=AAS

Etc.

Free speech is a liberal value that is almost exclusively defended on principle by liberals, though the right sometimes joins the fight for practical reasons.

This has a database:

https://niskanencenter.org/blog/there-is-no-campus-free-speech-crisis-a-close-look-at-the-evidence/

Sources included the Chronicle of Higher Education, Inside Higher Ed, AAUP, FIRE, and Campus Reform. You can view the resulting dataset here.

Inevitably there were ambiguous cases. Some involved professors who resigned over withering public criticism but retained the support of their institutions (e.g. Areej Zufari at Rollins College, Dale Brighamat the University of Missouri). In others, the evidence was suggestive but ultimately too thin to establish causation (e.g. Daniel Browning at William Carey College). Such cases were excluded from the dataset. On the other hand, I chose to include deans and comparable non-faculty academics (e.g. Nicholas Christakis at Yale University, N. Bruce Duthu at Dartmouth College) on the grounds that doing so contributes to an overall assessment of the campus free speech situation.

What remains are 45 cases from 2015 to 2017 where a faculty member was fired, resigned, or demoted/denied promotion due to speech deemed by critics as political. Of these, more than half (26) occurred in 2017, the clear majority (19) being over liberal speech. This disparity persists even after removing terminations occurring in private religious institutions.

 

[IGotAHugePeckah]

I wouldn't consider myself far-left. I'm a social democrat, left-of-center internationally. I may appear far left to you because the Overton Window in the United States is so far to the right. True far-leftists are post-capitalist socialists or communists, which I am not.

From wikipedia: Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical, right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism,[1][2][3][4] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy,[5] which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

Fascist policies the far-right in this country are for:
- Anti-BDS: literally a violation of free speech and a form of censorship. People like Shapiro, Dave Rubin, other trendy right-wing commentators are either quiet or completely wrong on this issue
- Anti-abortion laws as passed in several states in the south, Ohio, Missouri: I recognize this is a very charged issue. Ultimately however it is the government dictating to women what they can and can't do with their bodies. Again I recognize that this very premise is rejected by "pro-lifers" as they believe an unborn fetus is equivalent to a born child, but this is the perspective of pro-choicers
- Our INSANE "defense" budget, our numerous interventionist and illegal foreign wars against countries that didn't attack us, along with further militarization of police and our southern border
Not policies but rhetoric:
- Demonization of Central/South American refugees as less-than-human (some are good people though) despite the fact that the reason we have an immigration crisis in the first place is due to our horrible foreign policy towards Central and South America as well as our failed War on Drugs (which disproportionately subjugates minorities)
- Trump's rhetoric consists of shit like "Maybe I should get a 6-year term", his anti-press rhetoric (although I agree that mainstream media is garbage), his "lock her up" chants is literally him threatening to imprison his political opposition, and his general "Murica is the best" rhetoric even though the only metrics that show us in first place are defense spending and incarcerated citizens per capita. We may be the land of the free but we literally imprison more of our citizens than any other country, mostly for non-violent drug related shit.

I'm not saying we currently live in a fascist state but the inklings are there. This is why I care less about what stupid college kids shout at charlatans and more about what politicians and the president are actually saying and doing. Break out of the culture war bubble right-wing media tries to trap you in and look at the greater picture. And if you want sources or more examples let me know.

First of all, respect for actually taking the time to come up with examples and debate. Also. I didn't mean to insinuate you were far left. I put that in brackets to try to separate that from you but if it came off that way, I apologize.

I'm with you on the anti-BDS, I'm no more a fan of it than you are and was happy to see it voted down.

The anti-abortion thing is left over Catholic nonsense (imo), but I don't think it really qualifies as fascism. The reality is, all government puts in laws people must live by. If AOC becomes president in a decade and implements some radical taxing of the rich, is that not also fascism? If a guy makes 10 million, suddenly he must fork over 70% of it or be thrown in jail at gun point? The Christian conservatives think they're stopping murder with the law. I don't agree with it, but I don't necessarily look at it as a radial authoritarian stance.

People can have differing opinions on military spending and foreign wars, but what does that have to do with fascism? Fascism concerns the governing of a country's own people and the laws they must obey. I'm also not sure what the amount of resources police have has to do with fascism, unless they're providing resources to enforce fascist laws. America as always been a heavy militarized country, regardless of whether the Democrats or Republicans were in charge.

Demonization of Central/South American refugees as less-than-human... that's your perception, as it is the perception of many people, but I don't see how they're being treated as less than human. I don't think non-humans get assigned attorneys and have their day in court.

And with the Trump stuff, you're REALLY starting to reach. Trump was obviously joking about the 6-year term thing, nobody took that seriously. The "lock her up" stuff was making reference to the fact that Trump felt she broke the law and should be prosecuted. And honestly, show me a president who never said America was the greatest country in the world.

You can downplay Antifa by calling them "college kids", but it's a serious problem. Nobody should be spit on, pepper sprayed, or have their skull cracked with a bike lock for attending a political rally or event. That's insane. Media should be free to cover an event without getting threatened, assaulted, or having their gear destroyed. This is TRUE forcible suppression of opposition and freedom.

 

[Jack V Savage]

The "lock her up" stuff was making reference to the fact that Trump felt she broke the law and should be prosecuted.

1. Authoritarians always claim some legal justification for imprisoning political enemies. Trump fans wanted Clinton to be arrested because they thought she was likely to win the election, and they continued to chant that after she'd been cleared of any wrongdoing by law enforcement. The action that they wanted her locked up for was normal behavior that no one has been charged with in 100 years.
2. Fascist Trump supporters also chanted that about Feinstein, who wasn't even accused of any crime. The chant is basically just a call for ending rule of law and imprisoning enemies of the president.

 

[Fawlty]

In a weird way, this is a pleasant departure from the usual ravings.

"Do you see us inching towards a fascist society in a never ending list of vacuum justifications, from all sides of the political spectrum?"

No, but it's a good question to ask. There isn't really an "inch" toward fascism, it comes in bigger steps like removing checks and balances to dramatically increase the power of the executive, jailing political opponents, declaring fellow citizens to be enemies of the state, appointing unprincipled loyalists, etc. The United States is very resilient to this sort of thing, as we have seen over the past couple of years, and most of that resilience, aside from our constitutional system as a whole, is due to the first amendment and our political norms (though I believe we have been underestimating the damage being done to our system). And only one side of our politics is seriously promoting these things.

 

[ultramanhyata]

To control others is, unfortunately, human nature.

You’ve gotta love the modern approach to fascism . “ you’re a victim, so we’ll make these laws to protect you”..

The universal order of all things requires a bit of ruthlessness. By forcing the weak to thrive, we are destroying our own species.

So what if you had a kid who was an extraordinary STEM genius but due to relentless bullying (which wasn't cracked down on, lest society "coddle" alleged "weaklings") STEM genius kid kills himself? Is that some sort of "win" for human evolution?

Your premise is moronic. In addition to being the product of sociopathy.

 

[AngryPorto]

First of all, respect for actually taking the time to come up with examples and debate. Also. I didn't mean to insinuate you were far left. I put that in brackets to try to separate that from you but if it came off that way, I apologize.

I'm with you on the anti-BDS, I'm no more a fan of it than you are and was happy to see it voted down.

The anti-abortion thing is left over Catholic nonsense (imo), but I don't think it really qualifies as fascism. The reality is, all government puts in laws people must live by. If AOC becomes president in a decade and implements some radical taxing of the rich, is that not also fascism? If a guy makes 10 million, suddenly he must fork over 70% of it or be thrown in jail at gun point? The Christian conservatives think they're stopping murder with the law. I don't agree with it, but I don't necessarily look at it as a radial authoritarian stance.

People can have differing opinions on military spending and foreign wars, but what does that have to do with fascism? Fascism concerns the governing of a country's own people and the laws they must obey. I'm also not sure what the amount of resources police have has to do with fascism, unless they're providing resources to enforce fascist laws. America as always been a heavy militarized country, regardless of whether the Democrats or Republicans were in charge.

Demonization of Central/South American refugees as less-than-human... that's your perception, as it is the perception of many people, but I don't see how they're being treated as less than human. I don't think non-humans get assigned attorneys and have their day in court.

And with the Trump stuff, you're REALLY starting to reach. Trump was obviously joking about the 6-year term thing, nobody took that seriously. The "lock her up" stuff was making reference to the fact that Trump felt she broke the law and should be prosecuted. And honestly, show me a president who never said America was the greatest country in the world.

You can downplay Antifa by calling them "college kids", but it's a serious problem. Nobody should be spit on, pepper sprayed, or have their skull cracked with a bike lock for attending a political rally or event. That's insane. Media should be free to cover an event without getting threatened, assaulted, or having their gear destroyed. This is TRUE forcible suppression of opposition and freedom.

I don't think equating abortion and taxation is the same thing. Also it seems like you're kind of making the "taxation is theft" argument, which completely throws out the social contract. I'm empathetic to this argument to an extent because there is nowhere left to go if you want to avoid taxation, but pragmatically speaking if you live in society you reap the rewards of its benefits and should contribute back into it.

AOC's 70% top marginal tax rate wouldn't kick in until your 10,000,000 1st dollar. You can still make 10m a year, and you can still make more you'll just be taxed at a higher rate. Granted I wouldn't want this implemented until we drastically audited what our government is actually spending our money on (I don't want more money to go to bombing brown people around the world), but I think it's a good place to start the discussion.

Fair enough regarding the military abroad, but the point I made about police being increasingly militarized remains. I don't think cops should have lethal ammunition on them, and they should have body cams at all times. The news has been littered the past few years with cops blatantly abusing their power or showing poor judgement. I understand it's a very hard job where sometimes you have to make a split decision to defend your life or others but that's still no excuse to shoot unarmed people or abuse the power of your badge.

Trump has called Mexicans "rapists, murderers, some are good people", people in militias pretending to be law enforcement are apprehending people crossing illegally and saying "why don't we just shoot them?", kids are being separated from family and put in cages (under Obama too to be fair but it got worse under Trump). Yes this is my perception, and if you don't perceive this as treating people like animals and dehumanizing them... I don't know what to tell you, mate.

Regarding Trump's rhetoric, I really don't care if he's joking or not. A lot of times sure it seems like he's being tongue-in-cheek but there also seems like there's a side nod, and you can't deny that some of his supporters actually want some of the "jokes" he makes to happen. For the most part I don't like when people in public are looked at as moral role models ("I am not a role model!" -Charles Barkley) but I do believe the president should be held to a higher standard regarding his language and rhetoric. The "he's just joking" argument isn't that convincing.

I don't dismiss the tactics used by Antifa. Violence for any reason other than self-defense is abhorrent and I don't stand by it. But again we can't deny why they're here. Charlottesville was a thing, the fascist right is on the rise in this country -- Antifa is the natural equal and opposite reaction to that. If there are no fascists there will be no Antifa.

Cheers to you as well for the honest discussion.

 

[Trotsky]

Legit praise should be given to @Jack V Savage for breathing some intellectual life into this thread.

 

[Higus]

I don't disagree with anything you brought up. I think JBP and Ben "Facts Don't Care About Your Feelings Except For the Dumb Non-factual Magical Shit I Believe In" Shapiro deserve to speak without being shouted down like anyone else. I want to actually counter their ideas and expose them as garbage, and we can't do that if they're being censored, correct.

I don't want trans-women competing with biological women in sports where physiology matters. They have an inherent advantage. I'm okay with trans-men competing with men since they are at an inherent disadvantage.

But you're giving WAY too much power to Antifa and dismissing why they're even here. Shapiro and JBP are not alt-right, agreed, but the right in this country has shifted so far to the right that they now look at Pelosi and Hillary as radical lefties. They are centrists at best, right-of-center even on some issues like regulating wall street, free trade, and war. Antifa is here countering fascists. Not well in many circumstances, but that's why they're here.

You've fallen victim to the culture war bullshit. You're of course free to worry about all those things, sure, but while you're worrying about crap that doesn't matter like what gender pronouns purple-haired battlesluts want you to use (respect @Higus), you're being tricked by the actual elite class (the wealthy, not academics) into fighting stupid distraction culture war shit while they run out the back with all the money.

Credit where it’s due, the term “battleslut” was coined (unironically) by @waiguoren

 

[Witchhunt]

So what if you had a kid who was an extraordinary STEM genius but due to relentless bullying (which wasn't cracked down on, lest society "coddle" alleged "weaklings") STEM genius kid kills himself? Is that some sort of "win" for human evolution?

Your premise is moronic. In addition to being the product of sociopathy.

Woo! You missed the point by a mile.
Slow down and look at the bigger picture. The world is bigger than your “being picked on in school” bubble.
For your suicidal genius, there are a million more with resolve.

Sorry about what happened to you.

 

[Letssnuggle]

I wouldn't consider myself far-left. I'm a social democrat, left-of-center internationally. I may appear far left to you because the Overton Window in the United States is so far to the right. True far-leftists are post-capitalist socialists or communists, which I am not.

From wikipedia: Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical, right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism,[1][2][3][4] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy,[5] which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

Fascist policies the far-right in this country are for:
- Anti-BDS: literally a violation of free speech and a form of censorship. People like Shapiro, Dave Rubin, other trendy right-wing commentators are either quiet or completely wrong on this issue
- Anti-abortion laws as passed in several states in the south, Ohio, Missouri: I recognize this is a very charged issue. Ultimately however it is the government dictating to women what they can and can't do with their bodies. Again I recognize that this very premise is rejected by "pro-lifers" as they believe an unborn fetus is equivalent to a born child, but this is the perspective of pro-choicers
- Our INSANE "defense" budget, our numerous interventionist and illegal foreign wars against countries that didn't attack us, along with further militarization of police and our southern border
Not policies but rhetoric:
- Demonization of Central/South American refugees as less-than-human (some are good people though) despite the fact that the reason we have an immigration crisis in the first place is due to our horrible foreign policy towards Central and South America as well as our failed War on Drugs (which disproportionately subjugates minorities)
- Trump's rhetoric consists of shit like "Maybe I should get a 6-year term", his anti-press rhetoric (although I agree that mainstream media is garbage), his "lock her up" chants is literally him threatening to imprison his political opposition, and his general "Murica is the best" rhetoric even though the only metrics that show us in first place are defense spending and incarcerated citizens per capita. We may be the land of the free but we literally imprison more of our citizens than any other country, mostly for non-violent drug related shit.

I'm not saying we currently live in a fascist state but the inklings are there. This is why I care less about what stupid college kids shout at charlatans and more about what politicians and the president are actually saying and doing. Break out of the culture war bubble right-wing media tries to trap you in and look at the greater picture. And if you want sources or more examples let me know.

You’re an antifa sympathizer and definitely alt-left.

Just be honest.

 

[ShinkanPo]

I think the best possible future might involve a benevolent dictatorship with stratified societal interrelationships, like in feudal Japan, where you had obligations to those above and below your station in life.

People have to earn citizenship through some form of service to the State, either military or civil. Those who can't military can earn citizenship through (lots of) community service. Once obtained, you're guaranteed a right to work and vote. Includes free housing, health care and education.

Furthermore, there will have to be a stable population of healthy producers, so it would be a good idea to limit couples to one child each with a chance to earn another birth right through more service or because they have beneficial genetic traits that would improve the whole.

Maybe even a generation should occur where people with inherited diseases can't have children. In a hundred years we could drastically reduce cancers, heart disease, etc.

Feudal Japan is shit man..

I am not a ground hog expert but dam I think I read in short article that during the Tokugawa period they even legistlate what kind of furniture you can own! its like some sort of weird Samurai Communism.

Hell no to Samurai Communism! Even if they produced cute male Kabuki Transvestite actors! No way Hossay!

 

[AngryPorto]

You’re an antifa sympathizer and definitely alt-left.

Just be honest.

Nope, sorry, wouldn't be accepted by those people. Just center left, your Overton Window is just so far right I seem far left. It's okay though this country is finally swinging back.