Are half squats better for fighters?

[Slothbroth]

This young guy makes an interesting argument at 4:30 of the video, stating that since you generally don't jump, throw a punch, or perform a takedown from a full depth squat position, that it's advantageous for athletes to do half squats instead.

Does this make sense? I think it seems to make sense. Maybe you miss out on some muscular development by not going low in depth.



Also, I have mostly only done barbell squats. Never even thought to do it another way.

 

[Flower2dPeople]

I'm no expert but just because the motion doesn't reflect your activity doesn't mean it's pointless. The purpose of deep squats is to make you stronger not simulate particular moves.

 

[mr.sandman]

I think basketballers train with same principles so theres def. some truth to it. Stretch position is what gives greatest muscle growth so probably smart to implement both. Cant stand how the rios brothers scream and disrespect people in every video tho

 

[maximus__]

This young guy makes an interesting argument at 4:30 of the video, stating that since you generally don't jump, throw a punch, or perform a takedown from a full depth squat position, that it's advantageous for athletes to do half squats instead.

Does this make sense? I think it seems to make sense. Maybe you miss out on some muscular development by not going low in depth.



Also, I have mostly only done barbell squats. Never even thought to do it another way.

Training in the gym should support the movements you don't do in your sport. Most gym work is avoiding the imbalances that come from your sport.
If I can squat through a full range of motion, I can squat a partial rep. Gym training can be overly specific. I want to take my body through full ranges of motion it sometimes doesn't get in my sport. Otherwise I may aswell just play my sport with a weight vest.

 

[ChickenBrother]

This seems to be a common belief and probably has some truth to it. The retired UFC contender who trains at our gym told me the same and he used the same rationale as guy in the OP vid.

But part of me wonders if this isn't just bro science groupthink. Like some trainer at AKA or where ever had his fighters do this, those fighters tell their sparring partners and before you know it, a lot of elite fighters are doing half squats because "it has direct carryover to their sport."

 

[maximus__]

This seems to be a common belief and probably has some truth to it. The retired UFC contender who trains at our gym told me the same and used the same rationale as guy in the OP vid.

But part of me wonders if this isn't just bro science groupthink. Like some trainer at AKA or where ever has his fighters do this, those fighters relay it to their sparring partners and before you know it, a lot of elite fighters are doing half squats because "it has direct carryover to their sport."

Copying the movements of the sport always seemed stupid to me. Even zerchers squats which have become all the rage again because it's like fighting for the underhooks. I think strength and conditioning should be separate from training. The Zercher isn't good because it mimics fighting for underhooks, it's good because you have to stabilize the bar in front of you or you will be pulled forward.

I also have never stood square, got my double underhooks, braced and then lowered to parallel or below and stood up. It always catch those underhooks (usually only one) slight level change and then looking for an angle to drag them up.

It doesn't make any sense to me at all. Why wouldn't I do specific training from that position with a bigger partner instead and keep my strength and conditioning work to cover those missed areas to prevent injuries.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Copying the movements of the sport always seemed stupid to me. Even zerchers squats which have become all the rage again because it's like fighting for the underhooks. I think strength and conditioning should be separate from training. The Zercher isn't good because it mimics fighting for underhooks, it's good because you have to stabilize the bar in front of you or you will be pulled forward.

I also have never stood square, got my double underhooks, braced and then lowered to parallel or below and stood up. It always catch those underhooks (usually only one) slight level change and then looking for an angle to drag them up.

It doesn't make any sense to me at all. Why wouldn't I do specific training from that position with a bigger partner instead and keep my strength and conditioning work to cover those missed areas to prevent injuries.

Agree with all of this, but I do think it varies by fighter and that strength training advantage can be as much psychological as it is physical. Having trained around fighters for a long time, pretty much all of them I've observed are doing the exercises Pereira is doing in the OP vid: some kind of barbell squats, reverse lunges and/or bulgarian split squats, flinging a medicine ball against the wall, etc. That stuff is pretty standard but variations like only squatting half way down or zercher squats? I'm not convinced it really matters.

As long as you're doing something to build strength and stability through those ROMs, you're probably doing it right. But some fighters and trainers are going to swear up and down that a certain version is best and that's fine too.

 

[maximus__]

Agree with all of this, but I do think it varies by fighter and that strength training advantage can be as much psychological as it is physical. Having trained around fighters for a long time, pretty much all of them I've observed are doing the exercises Pereira is doing in the OP vid: some kind of barbell squats, reverse lunges and/or bulgarian split squats, flinging a medicine ball against the wall, etc. That stuff is pretty standard but variations like only squatting half way down or zercher squats? I'm not convinced it really matters.

As long as you're doing something to build strength and stability through those ROMs, you're probably doing it right. But some fighters and trainers are going to swear up and down that a certain version is best and that's fine too.

Like all strength and conditioning it becomes more specific as you approach a fight. The guy I have programming my strength and conditioning trains a heap of regional MMA guys, BJJ athletes and a number of international level MMA fighters including in the UFC. MMA isn't my goal and I am 12 months out from my event, but my current programming looks like any other conjugate programming split across 3 days of strength work with 2 days of running. I am doing variations of the big lifts, unilateral work and a heap of assistance work, my volume has 10x what I did for years with a powerlifting and run type program, and I am lifting much heavier than I used to. As I get closer to the event it will become more specific and that general strength work will take a back seat with me peaking for that event.

We only get to see a snapshot of these guys training and it's always showing flashy exciting stuff as opposed to the training they do 80% of the rest of the time. I remember someone talking about it years ago and the UFC embedded guys wanted to make the athlete do a heap of random exercises to put on a bit of a show. I can't remember who it was, but nobody is showing themselves looking wrecked in wrestling practice and just going for an easy LSS jog to recover between sessions.

 

[shunyata]

Training in the gym should support the movements you don't do in your sport. Most gym work is avoiding the imbalances that come from your sport.
If I can squat through a full range of motion, I can squat a partial rep. Gym training can be overly specific. I want to take my body through full ranges of motion it sometimes doesn't get in my sport. Otherwise I may aswell just play my sport with a weight vest.

Right?

Maybe I'm just old, but I thought part of the benefit of a good s&c program was that it smoothes out the muscle imbalances created by combat sports training.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Like all strength and conditioning it becomes more specific as you approach a fight. The guy I have programming my strength and conditioning trains a heap of regional MMA guys, BJJ athletes and a number of international level MMA fighters including in the UFC. MMA isn't my goal and I am 12 months out from my event, but my current programming looks like any other conjugate programming split across 3 days of strength work with 2 days of running. I am doing variations of the big lifts, unilateral work and a heap of assistance work, my volume has 10x what I did for years with a powerlifting and run type program, and I am lifting much heavier than I used to. As I get closer to the event it will become more specific and that general strength work will take a back seat with me peaking for that event.

We only get to see a snapshot of these guys training and it's always showing flashy exciting stuff as opposed to the training they do 80% of the rest of the time. I remember someone talking about it years ago and the UFC embedded guys wanted to make the athlete do a heap of random exercises to put on a bit of a show. I can't remember who it was, but nobody is showing themselves looking wrecked in wrestling practice and just going for an easy LSS jog to recover between sessions.

I train at a small gym no one has heard of that produced some high level fighters, the most successful spent almost 8 years as a UFC contender with wins over former champs and was about as elite as you can be without winning the belt. Kind of comparable to Jon Fitch but different weight class. Anyway that guy and his sparring partner who owns the gym would work into the regular BJJ classes with scrubs like myself (like Pereira seems to do). They'd also do a lot of their fight camps at the gym and had other ammy and lower level pro fighters working into the regular classes and doing their fight camps there too. So I'd roll with all these guys every week and got to observe what they were doing in the weight room next to the mats, both between fights and during fight camps.

The UFC contender guy did his last two camps at Xtreme Couture and the UFC PI before retiring, but by that point was in his late 30's. Anyway that guy still trains at the gym and this week I talked to him as he was doing his plyometric and kettle bell circuits in the weight room.

There's nothing magical about how the elite guys train S&C. They're just better at it (along with everything else) than the rest of us lol.

 

[NoSmilez]

I didn't watch the video because the guy loves Leon Edwards a little too much. Sprinters use half squats. An athlete should do both though. There should be a hypertrophy/strength phase and sports specific phase within a program. Maybe pre season or non fight camp you can go full ROM and limit it to half squats closer or beginning of the camp.

You shouldn't try to build strength during the middle of your camp anyways. Training should be more sports specific and the focus on building strength should be the off season.

 

[maximus__]

I train at a small gym no one has heard of that produced some high level fighters, the most successful of which spent almost 8 years as a UFC contender with wins over former champs and was about as elite as you can be without winning the belt. Kind of comparable to Jon Fitch but different weight class. Anyway that guy and his sparring partner who owns the gym would work into the regular BJJ classes with scrubs like myself (like Pereira seems to do). They'd also do a lot of their fight camps at the gym and had other ammy and lower level pro fighters working into the regular classes and doing their fight camps there too. So I'd roll with all these guys every week and got to observe what they were doing in the weight room next to the mats, both between fights and during fight camps.

The UFC contender guy did his last two camps at Xtreme Couture and the UFC PI before retiring, but by that point was in his late 30's. Anyway that guy still trains at the gym and this week I talked to him as he was doing his plyometric and kettle bell circuits in the weight room.

There's nothing magical about how the elite guys train S&C. They're just better at it (along with everything else) than the rest of us lol.

It's always good to watch. Especially when you feel them on the mats and they feel like monsters and then you can easily outlift them on your worst day. Makes you realise that sometimes people are just better than you.

I trained at a gym for a month with a bunch of title challengers in One FC and they were basically just doing crossfit for S&C and only training once a day.
I see recreational BJJ guys who do more sessions and S&C work than the pros. They have done those years of work though.

 

[maximus__]

Right?

Maybe I'm just old, but I thought part of the benefit of a good s&c program was that it smoothes out the muscle imbalances created by combat sports training.

It's life changing when you take that approach to your strength and conditioning. It's an absolute game changer when you stop chasing PL numbers and start training to actually support your other training or just general fitness. I usually find I bounce back from injuries much quicker than other people. It's pretty rare I can't just pick my rolls for a week or two for minor injuries and be back on the mats as usual within a very short period.

 

[ChickenBrother]

It's always good to watch. Especially when you feel them on the mats and they feel like monsters and then you can easily outlift them on your worst day. Makes you realise that sometimes people are just better than you.

I trained at a gym for a month with a bunch of title challengers in One FC and they were basically just doing crossfit for S&C and only training once a day.
I see recreational BJJ guys who do more sessions and S&C work than the pros. They have done those years of work though.

For combat sports in particular, I think other attributes are far more important once your strength is on par with the average competitor. The S&C coach for the Penn State wrestling team (which has been doing pretty great) did an interview a few months ago where he said there's no one size fits all and his job is to offer a smorgasbord for his athletes. He would like them to lift at least once/week but some wrestlers choose not to lift at all during season while some lift 3 x week. And he said if a wrestler wants to lift heavy the week of competition (which he doesn't recommend), he'll support it because it's about confidence building and doing whatever gets each wrestler mentally dialed in for competition.

 

[maximus__]

For combat sports in particular, I think other attributes are far more important once your strength is on par with the average competitor. The S&C coach for the Penn State wrestling team (which has been doing pretty great) did an interview a few months ago where he said there's no one size fits all and his job is to offer a smorgasbord for his athletes. He would like them to lift at least once/week but some wrestlers choose not to lift at all during season while some lift 3 x week. And he said if a wrestler wants to lift heavy the week of competition (which he doesn't recommend), he'll support it because it's about confidence building and doing whatever routine gets each wrestler mentally dialed in for competition.

I think it's all sports. I personally need to do something leading right up into an event. My body starts to feel worse if I don't do some sort of daily movement.
I am not one of those people that does well with complete rest, but I do need to be specifically told, what I can do or I will throw a hard session in when I shouldn't.

 

[wolffanghameha]

There was a study a while back that found quarter squats translate to sprint power and jump height more than half/parallel squats do. https://3cbperformance.substack.com/p/quarter-vs-half-vs-full-squats-which
But this was in experienced college athletes who already had a base and had already had a 1.5xBW half/parallel squat.

You can load up a quarter squat more than a half squat, so can develop more power at the top end of a squat. I've definitely seen footage of an NBA player doing quarter squats.

I don't know if deeper squats are good for injury prevention or something else, but I can imagine there's no reason for them to do lots of half squat volume like a bodybuilder would. No point doing extra training that isn't matched with your goals. They probably have a bunch of stability work, single-leg work, running, plyometrics and other stuff the average gym goer doesn't do, plus all their MMA training - takes a lot of time and a lot of recovery, both of which are limited resources.

I don't think top level athletes in most sports lift weights how modern recreational gym-goers do (compound lifts, starting strength type stuff). Real madrid weight training - you can see how much variation they do, half of which would be in "what the fuck are you doing?" territory in an average gym. My dad played field hockey at near-international level as an adult, international masters level (even post-ACL tear), coached adults/youth for several years and when he used the gym he never compound lifts (could partly be due to being from an older generation).

 

[maximus__]

There was a study a while back that found quarter squats translate to sprint power and jump height more than half/parallel squats do. https://3cbperformance.substack.com/p/quarter-vs-half-vs-full-squats-which
But this was in experienced college athletes who already had a base and had already had a 1.5xBW half/parallel squat.

You can load up a quarter squat more than a half squat, so can develop more power at the top end of a squat. I've definitely seen footage of an NBA player doing quarter squats.

I don't know if deeper squats are good for injury prevention or something else, but I can imagine there's no reason for them to do lots of half squat volume like a bodybuilder would. No point doing extra training that isn't matched with your goals. They probably have a bunch of stability work, single-leg work, running, plyometrics and other stuff the average gym goer doesn't do, plus all their MMA training - takes a lot of time and a lot of recovery, both of which are limited resources.

I don't think top level athletes in most sports lift weights how modern recreational gym-goers do (compound lifts, starting strength type stuff). Real madrid weight training - you can see how much variation they do, half of which would be in "what the fuck are you doing?" territory in an average gym. My dad played field hockey at near-international level as an adult, international masters level (even post-ACL tear), coached adults/youth for several years and when he used the gym he never compound lifts (could partly be due to being from an older generation).

As you said all athletes developed a reasonable standard in the full depth back squat prior to moving into a specific program of quarter squatting to boost that range of motion.

1.5-2x bodyweight would generally be stronger than most non lifters before they start quarter squatting. It still seems to point to a reasonably strong squat pattern (doesn't have to be a backsquat) being beneficial to jumping high and sprinting fast.