archie moore says ali lack of boxing skill/discipline resulted in his damage

1122 said:
exactly
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I guess roach training manny and Atlanta 96 were very much in the public eye. I'll see if I can find the article I read and link it if I find it but it was a couple years ago.
 
Marc A said:
informative , interesting how nostalga rewrites the past
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It's very true. Ali was amazing, but still prone to big shots even in his prime because of his inviting style of leaving his hands down near his waist.
 
Archie Moore was also a bit butthurt since Ali refused to sweep floors and do dishes for him when Archie Moore was first training him. Ali got fedup and left to Angelo Dundee. Moore was probably a bit irritated by that, and the fact he lost to him probably doesn't help. Dundee tried to get Ali to box with his hands up when he first started training him but Ali, ironically, was getting hit more, so Angelo said, just do what you always do. To be honest, during the sixties Ali was really hard to head cleanly. We hear that expression when we talk about Mayweather due to his shoulder roll and other techniques, but Ali slipped and rode a lot of the punches coming his way when he was in his physical prime. After his 3 year hiatus, he was easily less mobile and had to adjust his style. He fought with his hands up along the ropes. In the centre of the ring, Ali was still notoriously hard to hit, considering he picked his spots to be on his toes. During the Rumble in the Jungle it was truly impressive to see how rarely Foreman could land a clean punch on him. Lots of Foreman's shots were clipped and picked off by Ali's forearms and gloves, diminishing so much of their power. Ali could ride a punch like no other even in the 70's.

I dunno, I think he was just genetically predisposed to getting CTE even though his chin was made of cast iron and he had reasonable defense. Some guys brains just can't take the damage over time. Jake LaMotta took his fair share of shots and didn't diminish mentally like Ali did. You're made the way you're made. That proved to be a blessing and a curse for Ali.
 
Someone's confusing the parkinsons syndrome with the punch-drunk syndrome. Patterson didn't have the parkinsons syndrome.
 
clashnat said:
Someone's confusing the parkinsons syndrome with the punch-drunk syndrome. Patterson didn't have the parkinsons syndrome.
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It's like I said. I can't find the article I read and that was from 5 mins on Google. It also said Quarry but I thought he had dementia.
 
Sunfish said:
It's like I said. I can't find the article I read and that was from 5 mins on Google. It also said Quarry but I thought he had dementia.
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lol, just admit that you confused being punch drunk with parkinsons.
 
Clashnat, have you even read what I've posted in this thread? I said I read something about it but couldn't find the article, looked for it for about 5 mins and found a different one said he had it, you know, the clue being I said I couldn't tell you who had Parkinson's and the word apparently about Patterson. Learn how to read English.
 
Well, assuming Ali's current condition is due to his boxing years and not an unrelated illness (seen arguments for both, I'm not a doctor so I don't know), Archie is 100% right, who could possibly argue?

Ali had amazing speed and reflexes, and really didn't need the technique of a slower fighter. Like Roy Jones after him, he had the ability to break the rules and get away with things lesser fighters simply couldn't. When he came back from his exile and started climbing deeper into his 30s, obviously those cat-like reflexes and speed started to dull (as we've seen over the last 10 years with Roy Jones) and suddenly those punches that used to come up short or sail past his head were starting to land on his chin.

You go back and watch his fight with Earnie Shavers, who is the consensus hardest puncher in boxing history, and you see all the flush shots he took to the head... it's pretty scary stuff.
 
It's always been known that Ali was an unorthodox fighter. No surprise to anyone that knows boxing.

wilddeuces said:
Archie Moore was also a bit butthurt since Ali refused to sweep floors and do dishes for him when Archie Moore was first training him. Ali got fedup and left to Angelo Dundee. Moore was probably a bit irritated by that, and the fact he lost to him probably doesn't help.
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Interestingly enough, Moore himself admitted that he would have always had trouble with Ali at any point in time in his career. He said it was because his cross arm defense left his forehead open as a target. And Ali, accurate and sharp with the jab as he was, would just jab there all day keeping Moore off balance.
 
devante said:
archie moore stated that the reason ali had so much damage is because he refused to learn how to box correctly; he said that ali wanted to be like ray robinson and wouldn't dedicate himself to the process of learning the finer points of the craft...which led to him having to depend on his heart...chin..durability to carry him when his legs/exp/reaction/handspeed/ mobility failed him

he said that ali claimed to not fight into his old age so he wouldn't need to learn the tricks of the trade

this was said in the life and times of muhammed ali by thomas hauser

ali trained w/archie moore for a period of time; but left cus moore expected ali to fall in line and ali didn't want to.

i think ali is a grreat fighter; BUT tech i never thought he was one of the finer boxers, i feel that archie moore supports this idea, what is your opinion/thought
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This is actually puzzling to me how anyone cant see Ali's lack of basic boxing skills. Ali was an athlete turned fighter really, and there wasn't many athletic calibe guys in those days in boxing. For this reason I thought Holmes to be the more efficient fighter when comparing them,if you meshed each with each other you would have a very efficient boxer one that has better foot work/accuracy and power.
 
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1122 said:
How many boxers ended up with Parkinsons? I can only think of 2 & I follow the sport very closely.

If you ask me, he could have just gotten Parkinsons & it didn't have anything to do with boxing. Most boxers get brain damage but that usually results in punch drunkness.
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2? Ali, Roach and Ray Robinson are three that come to mind immediately.

I also think it could be be just genetics but I think doctors argue whether Ali's Parkinson might just not be an extreme form of CTE as the symptoms can be very similar.

Then again Ali was always mentally sharp while other punch drunk boxers often had memory issues and couldn't concentrate and had things like that.

but it's quite possible that the damage from boxing added to the effects Parkinson's had on him as both can cause similar symptoms.

But I also think that genetics play a huge part. Also I think Ali's fights were the minor issue. Ali took a BEATING in sparring for I think most of his career he let people hit him in sparring and didn't give a fuck he got hit with full power shots regularly for decades even just leading up to the actual fights.
 
Reminds me of reading about Earl Campbell's training methods. One of the greatest powerbacks of all time - he's also one of a very few number of football players that many people say could've played in the NFL straight out of high school. Anyways, Campbell's training during his NFL years included his trainers throwing (with full force) medicine balls at his body to simulate the shots he would take. He now has a terrible time walking, with pain all throughout his body

I read that Dundee would tell Ali that he was doing a great job bringing his right hand back up after throwing it (something that Ali did very poorly) and would compliment him on it. The effect that this had is that it would feed Ali's ego and he would try to bring his hand back with extra effort (not that you could tell by watching his fights). It's just funny how you had to coach him. I don't know much, but I think that there could've been a better coach for Ali.

By the way, if you guys are Ali fans and haven't read this, please check it out:

http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2015/11/18/9742984/five-last-rounds-in-louisville

and

http://thestacks.deadspin.com/my-dinner-with-ali-511528500

Both by the same author and just great reads in general.
 
DannyNL said:
Well, assuming Ali's current condition is due to his boxing years and not an unrelated illness (seen arguments for both, I'm not a doctor so I don't know), Archie is 100% right, who could possibly argue?

Ali had amazing speed and reflexes, and really didn't need the technique of a slower fighter. Like Roy Jones after him, he had the ability to break the rules and get away with things lesser fighters simply couldn't. When he came back from his exile and started climbing deeper into his 30s, obviously those cat-like reflexes and speed started to dull (as we've seen over the last 10 years with Roy Jones) and suddenly those punches that used to come up short or sail past his head were starting to land on his chin.

You go back and watch his fight with Earnie Shavers, who is the consensus hardest puncher in boxing history, and you see all the flush shots he took to the head... it's pretty scary stuff.
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It is too bad he never bothered to learn from Archie Moore. The guy had 219 pro fights to Ali's 66 and didn't retire a blubbering mess. Ali though was one of those guys that was impossible to train. Think of the kind of kid he had to have been to turn his nose up at the opportunity to learn under a legend due to not wanting to have to do the dishes and sweep the floors. Dundee has said that all he had provided Ali was psychological help and Ali would go do whatever he wanted. If Ali had learned and fought like Moore, he probably could have lived out he career hardly taking any damage but fans would probably have complained about him avoiding "wars". Basically, what Mayweather is accused of.
 
Prefect said:
It is too bad he never bothered to learn from Archie Moore. The guy had 219 pro fights to Ali's 66 and didn't retire a blubbering mess. Ali though was one of those guys that was impossible to train. Think of the kind of kid he had to have been to turn his nose up at the opportunity to learn under a legend due to not wanting to have to do the dishes and sweep the floors. Dundee has said that all he had provided Ali was psychological help and Ali would go do whatever he wanted. If Ali had learned and fought like Moore, he probably could have lived out he career hardly taking any damage but fans would probably have complained about him avoiding "wars". Basically, what Mayweather is accused of.
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Yes very true. From what I read, Ali was too young and cocky when he was with Archie to learn anything. Archie's fighters lived at the training camp and were required to pull their weight, do chores, clean up, wash dishes, ect. Ali didn't like having to do house work and left camp pretty quick. He could have used Archie's superior technique in his later years.
 
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