Anderson Silva fighting stance...

[Nuclearlandmine]

Anderson fought the first fight "half heartedly" and "not taking it seriously", then get KO'd for his trouble. I couldn't understand why so many people used that as an excuse for him. You are supposed to come in 100% ready and respect your opponent dammit. If you get soft and got KO'd it is entirely your faults. Whoever doesn't recognize that really need to re-examine yourself. You looked more like trying to discredit Weidman more than admit that Silva got bested, BOTH TIMES.

 

[flanellograf]

Well there's plenty of conjecture about his lack of motivation or seriousness, I don't think his desire to finish is that controversial.
Silva is well known for only countering when he has a read on his opponents rhythm and timing, and usually when they're over-extended and way out of position. To the point that he is called lazy about his opportunities. That's why his accuracy is so amazing, but also why he couldn't hit Weidman.

He is obviously primarily a counter striker, but to say that he ONLY counters when he has the perfect opportunity is grossly overstating it.

Yes, he relied for the better part of his UFC career on finding the timing of his opponents, but that also usually took more than one round.
Which is why you can't really draw any definitive conclusions on how Weidman would have done had the fights gone longer (if Silva stopped clowning excessively in the first fight). It's however obviously completely fair to assume Weidman would have done better than any of his previous opponents.

You also can't say why he was blatantly taunting in a couple of fights in the later part of his career. You can make an educated guess, but there is no reasonable reason to assume he always taunted because he had to. Maia had to close the distance, as he mostly does his takedowns from the clinch, and thus had to be aggressive leaving ample of space for Silva to counter without all the clowning as Maia wasn't the best striker. In fact, Silva landed quite well when attacking first (like that flying knee thrown almost like it was a jab) and it looked like he could finish the fight whenever he wanted to, and was widely criticized for that very reason. Forrest and Bonnar are both slower plodding brawlers without great takedowns. Really not much of a need to clown them to get a finish.

Taking all those factors into consideration, there simply is no good reason to think he clowned Weidman more than all those fights combined because Weidman "forced" him. History does not support that hypothesis.
Again; that is merely curve fitting.

 

[devante]

Well there's plenty of conjecture about his lack of motivation or seriousness, I don't think his desire to finish is that controversial.
Silva is well known for only countering when he has a read on his opponents rhythm and timing, and usually when they're over-extended and way out of position. To the point that he is called lazy about his opportunities. That's why his accuracy is so amazing, but also why he couldn't hit Weidman.

I agree Silva is a counter guy...but he potshots alot..he isn't the type to actively counter all the time...he doesn't use alot of volume..he frustrates moving around and baiting guys..lets them open up then counters big...he does counter every or most shots.

He is very accurate as u stated...because he is very picky with his shots...

He is a counter fighter...but not an active one..he pick shots...he potshots... he had a hard time timing weidman and had no luck dissuading him by making him miss...Chris stayed on him and stayed deliberate in his offense and defense.

Anderson wasn't able to get weidman to give him openings and his inability to take the lead

Your right
..much less use volume/combos did him in.

 

[flanellograf]

Anderson fought the first fight "half heartedly" and "not taking it seriously", then get KO'd for his trouble. I couldn't understand why so many people used that as an excuse for him. You are supposed to come in 100% ready and respect your opponent dammit. If you get soft and got KO'd it is entirely your faults. Whoever doesn't recognize that really need to re-examine yourself. You looked more like trying to discredit Weidman more than admit that Silva got bested, BOTH TIMES.

I on the other hand don't understand why so many people tend to assume that every time you try and give a reasonable reason for why a loss happens, it's an excuse? Obviously he lost partly because of his own doing, and partly because of Weidman skill.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

There's a fine line between "reasonable" and "excuse". For me and to a lot of people, Anderson Silva wasn't taking things seriously in the first fight fall into the later category (it especially pissed me off when that is coupled with the rhetorical statement like "he's gonna beat Weidman when he's serious" and "Weidman just got lucky" that obviously proven wrong last night). Having a bad injury before hand is reasonable, having flu before fight is reasonable. Not taking opponent seriously? That's excuse.

 

[a guy]

He is obviously primarily a counter striker, but to say that he ONLY counters when he has the perfect opportunity is grossly overstating it.

Yes, he relied for the better part of his UFC career on finding the timing of his opponents, but that also usually took more than one round.
Which is why you can't really draw any definitive conclusions on how Weidman would have done had the fights gone longer (if Silva stopped clowning excessively in the first fight). It's however obviously completely fair to assume Weidman would have done better than any of his previous opponents.

You also can't say why he was blatantly taunting in a couple of fights in the later part of his career. You can make an educated guess, but there is no reasonable reason to assume he always taunted because he had to. Maia had to close the distance, as he mostly does his takedowns from the clinch, and thus had to be aggressive leaving ample of space for Silva to counter without all the clowning as Maia wasn't the best striker. In fact, Silva landed quite well when attacking first (like that flying knee thrown almost like it was a jab) and it looked like he could finish the fight whenever he wanted to, and was widely criticized for that very reason. Forrest and Bonnar are both slower plodding brawlers without great takedowns. Really not much of a need to clown them to get a finish.

Taking all those factors into consideration, there simply is no good reason to think he clowned Weidman more than all those fights combined because Weidman "forced" him. History does not support that hypothesis.
Again; that is merely curve fitting.

Don't mistake a small hyperbole for my argument, that's a strawman. The point is that Silva is absolutely the most picky/lazy counter-striker in MMA. He doesn't counter guys when he can't get them to over commit, or he can't find their rhythm. Weidman fought with a broken rhythm, and the only time he over committed he was in control of range so Silva couldn't counter anyway.

If Silva didn't clown as much, I assume it would have gone much like the second fight. A whole lot of nothing, him getting taken down, him trying to hit Weidman and failing except for leg kicks. Then again Weidman did look like he was getting tired, but he almost always fights with his mouth open so it's hard to tell and he clearly still had power at the end of the first fight.

Again, Silva clowns to get the best possible opportunities. Against someone who just wants to brawl like Forrest, that ensures that he's going to attack wildly. Against someone like Sonnen it's unnecessary, because Sonnen comes forward extremely hard. Even then, it's not like he did no clowning:

It's part of his game. He takes it to an extreme and gets emotional only when people won't engage with him consistently, like Maia or Weidman. And he looks pretty good leading, but he definitely couldn't just go and finish Maia whenever he wanted. It's not who he is as a fighter, and not his skill set. He just isn't elite moving forward like he is countering.

Weidman put a lot of things together that Silva hasn't faced. He was a strong wrestler who got an effortless take down early and landed several hard shots on the ground, hit Silva standing but didn't get hit, avoided all the clinch attempts, taunted back, fought with a broken rhythm, had solid and clever footwork and power in his hands. He wasn't desperate for a take down and he wasn't scared or desperate to engage, but had the skill to do both those things. Silva has never seen that before and the effect on him was obvious.

 

[Blackened]

Don't you just love "old school Anderson" and his invincible Lumpinee clinch-work?

You know, that's not the Silva clinch work from his early days. His head isn't close enough to opponent and he's pulling on the neck not the back of the head.

I think he's done man. Will go down as a legend for sure, but we don't need another Silva fight, he's made his contribution to the MMA world.

 

[flanellograf]

Don't mistake a small hyperbole for my argument, that's a strawman. The point is that Silva is absolutely the most picky/lazy counter-striker in MMA. He doesn't counter guys when he can't get them to over commit, or he can't find their rhythm. Weidman fought with a broken rhythm, and the only time he over committed he was in control of range so Silva couldn't counter anyway.

If Silva didn't clown as much, I assume it would have gone much like the second fight. A whole lot of nothing, him getting taken down, him trying to hit Weidman and failing except for leg kicks. Then again Weidman did look like he was getting tired, but he almost always fights with his mouth open so it's hard to tell and he clearly still had power at the end of the first fight.

Again, Silva clowns to get the best possible opportunities. Against someone who just wants to brawl like Forrest, that ensures that he's going to attack wildly. Against someone like Sonnen it's unnecessary, because Sonnen comes forward extremely hard. Even then, it's not like he did no clowning:

It's part of his game. He takes it to an extreme and gets emotional only when people won't engage with him consistently, like Maia or Weidman. And he looks pretty good leading, but he definitely couldn't just go and finish Maia whenever he wanted. It's not who he is as a fighter, and not his skill set. He just isn't elite moving forward like he is countering.

Weidman put a lot of things together that Silva hasn't faced. He was a strong wrestler who got an effortless take down early and landed several hard shots on the ground, hit Silva standing but didn't get hit, avoided all the clinch attempts, taunted back, fought with a broken rhythm, had solid and clever footwork and power in his hands. He wasn't desperate for a take down and he wasn't scared or desperate to engage, but had the skill to do both those things. Silva has never seen that before and the effect on him was obvious.

You are again making a lot of assertions you simply cannot know, and that are not even reasonable. Silva didn't need to clown to the extent that he was making technical errors. The risk/reward scenario was seriously off. It's like putting your hand into the fire to ensure you don't overcook your food. It's just delusional, and you don't do shit like that if you don't think that you are superman. Especially if you then don't even grab the food once you have it.

For the umpteenth time, you don't know why he gets emotional, or why he clowns excessively, and it doesn't matter how many times you assert that you do. Your rationale for it simply does not make sense, there isn't enough sample size. Even if I agree with your evaluation of Weidmans skills. If he hadn't seen anything like that before, we can't draw any conclusions on what the obvious result was. Cherry picking and curve fitting based on some tendencies (which you generally exaggerate, like what happened with Maia), does not change that. You can guess, but I don't find that guess especially convincing. A much more plausible scenario is hubris, which is not an uncommon thing among much celebrated people with a lot of yes-men around them. Frustration might be a contributing factor, but it starts at feeling you "can do things that others can't". His own words, if you wanna play the quote game.

Silva usually takes at least one round to suss out his opponent, and he might have picked up on Weidmans rhythm, or tendencies, even if they were few. It's Anderson after all, and he is no stranger to pulling crazy shit out of his ass, even if his aging chin does make it less likely. We never will know.

 

[Castro Alves]

You know, that's not the Silva clinch work from his early days. His head isn't close enough to opponent and he's pulling on the neck not the back of the head.

I think he's done man. Will go down as a legend for sure, but we don't need another Silva fight, he's made his contribution to the MMA world.

There is nothing wrong with the grip whatsoever and there is distance between them because Weidman is masterfully breaking the posture. God, can you nuthuggers just stop with the delusional dipshittery?

 

[Blackened]

There is nothing wrong with the grip whatsoever and there is distance between them because Weidman is masterfully breaking the posture. God, can you nuthuggers just stop with the delusional dipshittery?

Sand in your vagina?

Your wrong btw, head isn't close enough, hands aren't high enough.

Fact of the matter is, Weidman is a beast, no doubt, but Silva is old man... old.

*Edit:Talk about delusional

 

[Jukai]

Why would getting old affect your hand position in the clinch? Alzheimer's?

 

[a guy]

You are again making a lot of assertions you simply cannot know, and that are not even reasonable. Silva didn't need to clown to the extent that he was making technical errors. The risk/reward scenario was seriously off. It's like putting your hand into the fire to ensure you don't overcook your food. It's just delusional, and you don't do shit like that if you don't think that you are superman. Especially if you then don't even grab the food once you have it.

For the umpteenth time, you don't know why he gets emotional, or why he clowns excessively, and it doesn't matter how many times you assert that you do. Your rationale for it simply does not make sense, there isn't enough sample size. Even if I agree with your evaluation of Weidmans skills. If he hadn't seen anything like that before, we can't draw any conclusions on what the obvious result was. Cherry picking and curve fitting based on some tendencies (which you generally exaggerate, like what happened with Maia), does not change that. You can guess, but I don't find that guess especially convincing. A much more plausible scenario is hubris, which is not an uncommon thing among much celebrated people with a lot of yes-men around them. Frustration might be a contributing factor, but it starts at feeling you "can do things that others can't". His own words, if you wanna play the quote game.

Silva usually takes at least one round to suss out his opponent, and he might have picked up on Weidmans rhythm, or tendencies, even if they were few. It's Anderson after all, and he is no stranger to pulling crazy shit out of his ass, even if his aging chin does make it less likely. We never will know.

My argument is based on a few simple facts. Silva is a counter striker, and as picky about his opportunities as it gets. Silva clowns to get better opportunities. Silva spends a lot of time posturing and trying to assert his dominance to trick everyone into thinking he's untouchable.

With those things in mind, when you consider everything Weidman did and how Silva reacted to it I don't think it's so ridiculous to give Weidman credit for causing Silva to behave abnormally. It's what happens when you're winning the mental game against someone who relies heavily on that to win. If hubris played a part, it was still because of Weidman.

If the fight had gone on longer, it's certainly possible that Silva could have pulled off the finish. But don't forget that Silva is, and always has been, an early finisher. He has 18 first round finishes, 6 second round finishes and only 1 legitimate finish coming later than that over Sonnen, since his TKO of Cote wasn't really a finish. Even if you just count the UFC, its 7 first round stoppages to 5 second round. Meaning that historically, if he hasn't put you by away the end of the second round he probably isn't going to. And he's less likely to finish you if you get out of the first round. The whole mystique of the patient Spider setting his web is way overstated, especially when you consider that the fights he took longer to finish are almost all ones where he was on his back for the first round, or against a less active opponent. The truth is he generally picks people apart pretty quickly, which he never looked capable of doing against Weidman.

 

[flanellograf]

My argument is based on a few simple facts. Silva is a counter striker, and as picky about his opportunities as it gets. Silva clowns to get better opportunities. Silva spends a lot of time posturing and trying to assert his dominance to trick everyone into thinking he's untouchable.

With those things in mind, when you consider everything Weidman did and how Silva reacted to it I don't think it's so ridiculous to give Weidman credit for causing Silva to behave abnormally. It's what happens when you're winning the mental game against someone who relies heavily on that to win. If hubris played a part, it was still because of Weidman.

If the fight had gone on longer, it's certainly possible that Silva could have pulled off the finish. But don't forget that Silva is, and always has been, an early finisher. He has 18 first round finishes, 6 second round finishes and only 1 legitimate finish coming later than that over Sonnen, since his TKO of Cote wasn't really a finish. Even if you just count the UFC, its 7 first round stoppages to 5 second round. Meaning that historically, if he hasn't put you by away the end of the second round he probably isn't going to. And he's less likely to finish you if you get out of the first round. The whole mystique of the patient Spider setting his web is way overstated, especially when you consider that the fights he took longer to finish are almost all ones where he was on his back for the first round, or against a less active opponent. The truth is he generally picks people apart pretty quickly, which he never looked capable of doing against Weidman.

Those are not all the facts. You don't know that Silva clowns only to get better opportunities. He could sometimes clown because he is bored. Or felt insulted. Or whatever. Did he really need better opportunities against Forrest? Did he need to take the pretty substantial punches to the face with his back up against the cage with Bonnar?

I didn't say your argument was ridiculous, necessarily. I said it was improbable, or at the very least not a foregone conclusion. Now that you mention it though, I do personally find it a bit silly to think that having that much success doing that much crazy shit and basically becoming a super mega star in your own native country, couldn't fuck with your mind. I mean it's basically a stereotype.
Why would the hubris be only because of Weidman? That makes zero sense.
The thought process might however been something like this:
"I have no hespect for this opponent, is normal, I can do things no one else can, wait, not working good, getting angry because of pressure, do even crazier shit because I'm spiderman, wake up, what happen?"

Btw, didn't you just previously say that Silva waits to get the timing of his opponents? That implies that some time passes. He has also historically been more careful against people that can threaten him with a takedown. It can also take him a longer time to get someones timing down. Maybe age is catching up with him (him being hurt by that not so hard looking clinch hook suggests as much) and/or Weidman had enough of a "broken rhythm" to make that process take a longer time. Who knows?

 

[Castro Alves]

Why would getting old affect your hand position in the clinch? Alzheimer's?

Maybe Physics work different in whineland.

 

[Jukai]

Those are not all the facts. You don't know that Silva clowns only to get better opportunities. He could sometimes clown because he is bored. Or felt insulted. Or whatever. Did he really need better opportunities against Forrest? Did he need to take the pretty substantial punches to the face with his back up against the cage with Bonnar?

I didn't say your argument was ridiculous, necessarily. I said it was improbable, or at the very least not a foregone conclusion. Now that you mention it though, I do personally find it a bit silly to think that having that much success doing that much crazy shit and basically becoming a super mega star in your own native country, couldn't fuck with your mind. I mean it's basically a stereotype.
Why would the hubris be only because of Weidman? That makes zero sense.
The thought process might however been something like this:
"I have no hespect for this opponent, is normal, I can do things no one else can, wait, not working good, getting angry because of pressure, do even crazier shit because I'm spiderman, wake up, what happen?"

Btw, didn't you just previously say that Silva waits to get the timing of his opponents? That implies that some time passes. He has also historically been more careful against people that can threaten him with a takedown. It can also take him a longer time to get someones timing down. Maybe age is catching up with him (him being hurt by that not so hard looking clinch hook suggests as much) and/or Weidman had enough of a "broken rhythm" to make that process take a longer time. Who knows?

Until Silva comes out and explains why he does things himself, EVERYTHING is purely conjecture. It's kind of silly for you to tell A Guy that he is just guessing when you yourself are doing the same.

 

[flanellograf]

Until Silva comes out and explains why he does things himself, EVERYTHING is purely conjecture. It's kind of silly for you to tell A Guy that he is just guessing when you yourself are doing the same.

The difference is I'm not stating my opinion as absolute fact, which is what I perceive he often does.
Apart from that I am mostly arguing for what I see to be the more plausible scenarios.
Also, it still could be conjecture if Silva comes out and explains things. It depends on how he explains them. He seems to troll a lot, or just speak in very ambiguous and general terms. That doesn't just apply to him though, a lot of fighters and trainers say weird shit.

 

[Jukai]

The difference is I'm not stating my opinion as absolute fact, which is what I perceive he often does.
Apart from that I am mostly arguing for what I see to be the more plausible scenarios.
Also, it still could be conjecture if Silva comes out and explains things. It depends on how he explains them. He seems to troll a lot, or just speak in very ambiguous and general terms. That doesn't just apply to him though, a lot of fighters and trainers say weird shit.

Well, I agree with almost everything he is saying, so I can't say that your argument is more plausible than his. Not that I'm saying you are wrong, but I just think Anderson is more effective with his arms down, goading his opponents--- depending on the competition, of course.

 

[flanellograf]

Well, I agree with almost everything he is saying, so I can't say that your argument is more plausible than his. Not that I'm saying you are wrong, but I just think Anderson is more effective with his arms down, goading his opponents--- depending on the competition, of course.

I never said he wasn't, so I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[Jukai]

I never said he wasn't, so I'm not sure what your point is.

You're saying it isn't part of his game and that he's just clowning-- if he is more affective at that, how is it not part of his game plan?

Maybe I'm confusing your position, and if I am, I apologize.

 

[a guy]

Those are not all the facts. You don't know that Silva clowns only to get better opportunities. He could sometimes clown because he is bored. Or felt insulted. Or whatever. Did he really need better opportunities against Forrest? Did he need to take the pretty substantial punches to the face with his back up against the cage with Bonnar?

I didn't say your argument was ridiculous, necessarily. I said it was improbable, or at the very least not a foregone conclusion. Now that you mention it though, I do personally find it a bit silly to think that having that much success doing that much crazy shit and basically becoming a super mega star in your own native country, couldn't fuck with your mind. I mean it's basically a stereotype.
Why would the hubris be only because of Weidman? That makes zero sense.
The thought process might however been something like this:
"I have no hespect for this opponent, is normal, I can do things no one else can, wait, not working good, getting angry because of pressure, do even crazier shit because I'm spiderman, wake up, what happen?"

Btw, didn't you just previously say that Silva waits to get the timing of his opponents? That implies that some time passes. He has also historically been more careful against people that can threaten him with a takedown. It can also take him a longer time to get someones timing down. Maybe age is catching up with him (him being hurt by that not so hard looking clinch hook suggests as much) and/or Weidman had enough of a "broken rhythm" to make that process take a longer time. Who knows?

You're guessing as much as I am. But I said in my last past that Silva spends a lot of time trying to assert his dominance and win the mental aspect of fights. He wants his opponents to get angry, frustrated and desperate. He works very hard to make those things happen, and to make it look like he's not trying at all in the process. Does he NEED to clown? Maybe not, but he certainly benefits from it when his opponents react as he hopes.

I never said it couldn't. And I'm not saying his hubris comes from Weidman, I'm saying that IF his hubris is responsible for the loss then Weidman gets credit for beating him soundly enough to infuriate him and wound his pride.

There's no reason to suggest that Silva was gonna turn into a late finisher when he had very little success against Weidman, and Weidman (unlike Sonnen) has no glaring weaknesses. Silva does wait to get timing, but if he hasn't found it in the amount of time he spent standing in both fights against Weidman then historically he won't be able to find it. As I said, the amount of time he waits is largely overstated by fans hyping his mystique. It generally takes him a few minutes of standup before he starts taking over, but he never showed any signs of even being able to do that against Weidman.